BF and "mother-in-law"

Dreamcatcher

Ok, I'm not actually married, but we live like a married couple, been together for four years.

His mother is 70, very strong personality(like my bf), very outspoken, very chatty, very nice, or so I thought... She indicated to my bf late last year that she didn't like me and even went so far as to say that she didn't want me in her house(to my bf).
I have absolutely no idea why she said this. I have always been polite and chatty with his parents, but maybe not chatty enough for her liking, evidentally?

I've known that this issue was going to become a bit of time bomb... Actually what I'm most pissed off with is that my bf didn't challenge what she said or stand up for me, express loyalty, respect towards me. I guess that he didn't want to get into an argument with his Mum, who has a minor heart condition. Nevertheless I am hurt by the fact that he didn't stand up for me on any level.

He only told me months afterwards. I don't think that he intended to tell me - it was just in the heat of the moment, during an argument, that he blurted it out.

We argued about this this evening, because his bro "invited" us both up to his parents house tomorrow evening. I said that I wasn't going to go, and I said that I expected him not to go either, out of loyalty to me. But he said he was going to go anyway. We are apart now - he has gone away, maybe wants to think.

My question is, what would you do in a similar situation - have you experienced similar in your own life?

Maybe I ought to just swallow a bucket of "pride" and just go along - maybe I will, maybe I should, but right now I feel that I have to stand up for myself and not go.. Am I holding an impossible grudge....? Am I wrong? My bf seems to think that I should just go, and has been trying to play down what he told me last year...

I love my bf very much, but I don't want to sacfrice my dignity.

Advice would be appreciated.

jesus_thats_gre

Dreamcatcher wrote:

We argued about this this evening, because his bro "invited" us both up to his parents house tomorrow evening. I said that I wasn't going to go, and I said that I expected him not to go either, out of loyalty to me. But he said he was going to go anyway. We are apart now - he has gone away, maybe wants to think.

This stood out.. You are gonna loose out if you pursue this path!!

Easily_Irritated

Yea, jesus is right. Its a toughie but telling him not to go cos you're not really isin't the way.

You put him in a position like that and a 4 year relationship won't seem all that serious to him. At least not serious enough to choose you over his family!

I maybe wrong tho

utopian

Dreamcatcher wrote:

I love my bf very much, but I don't want to sacfrice my dignity.

I have a number of friends whose wives have issues with the mother-in-law - this appears to be pretty common, despite the music-hall stereotype.

These "issues" can be extremely painful for everyone. Personally, I don't think it's fair to expect someone to reject/avoid his parents for the sake of his partner (particularly if you're not married).

Why not just swallow your pride and pretend nothing was ever said? It's not like you have to live with the mother-in-law.

Crucifix

I've got to say, you shouldn't try and forbid him from seeing his parents, even if his mam is a bit nuts.

bug

I know of a woman who did this to all her sons girlfriends.
The result being that none of them were happy. Or ended up happy because she basically pushed the women out of her sons life, in any way she could.

Your boyfriend is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Im assuming that you have a good relationship with him, and this is the only real downside of your relationship?

The thing is its not his fault that his mother is a be-atch, and the only thing you can do is show him you how unlike her you are by staying strong and gritting your teeth and going to these family do's. I mean... his brother likes you right?

Im sure your boyfriend doesnt appreciate the negative quality that his mother has of disliking you for no reason, and possibly resents her for it.
Be the opposite of her. He'll appreciate you for it.

Unless of course she has a genuine reason for disliking you? After all, you did say you left out some of the facts...

As for him throwing it in your face, thats the disturbing bit.
Is he listening to her reasons for disliking you? Because it seems that there may have been more to it than just "Im not fond of her"- end conversation there!
There are two things to take note of here. Has she a huge influence over him? In which case thats not particularly healthy.
And what exactly was said? Is it on his mind? Did you ask why or do you already know the reason?

To be honest if she's 70, she doesnt have far to go.. problem solved.
Ok, thats not funny, but its kinda true.
So your looking at a few more years of this, and to be honest... who cares...if his siblings like you, then you're alright.
The only person you really have to question is your bf, and whether he actually likes you.

Oh by the way. Whether you go to this gathering is completely up to you, but what you cannot do is ask him to choose. That isnt fair, its his brother, not his ma he's going to see. - besides if you did go, and she was there, Im assuming there are lots of other people you could focus your attention on. Who knows you might even enjoy it if you just deflate her importance in your own head and elevate the others present in conversation. Convince yourself she's not as important as she makes herself out to be in the minds of her prodgeny. But be civil and smile at her. She cant pick at a smile. Not a chance.

The_Conductor

Have to agree with Bug 100% on this.
Unfortunately, its a lot more common than not for partners not to see eye-to-eye with their "in-laws" (or defacto inlaws).
Certainly- his mother may have made some comment about you to your partner- irrespective of anything else keep in mind that Irish mothers have a 'special' relationship with their sons, and especially the older generations may feel that no-one is good-enough for their son. It is not a reflection on you at all. That your partner chose to drag up a nasty comment from the past in the heat of an argument- put it down to the fact that it was said in the heat of the moment and move on. There is no point whatsoever in getting cut-up over comments like that. When the situation has cooled down, you might revisit the situation and talk in a non-confrontational manner to him about it. Of all the things in the world to have fights about- try to not fight over family, and definitively try to not put someone in a situation where they feel they have to try to choose between you and their family. Irrespective of who they choose, its a loose-loose situation, there can be no winners.

Wait until you have calmed down, and then have a think about the situation in a rational manner before discussing it. Don't let it simmer in the background breeding contempt and a constant source of potential fireworks.

Above all else- remember that you are dating her son, not her. You do not have to like her one little bit, but as she is his mother the very least that you should do to try and make the situation as tenable as possible is to be pleasant and calm towards her. Don't fight with her- or with your partner over her- the person who will get most hurt in any fight of that nature is you. Regardless of how nasty the things she has said are, she is and always will be his mother, something that cannot and will not ever change........

It can be a right bitch learning to bite to your tongue, but believe you me, it can be the best lesson you ever learn.

athena 2000

Dreamcatcher wrote:

She indicated to my bf late last year that she didn't like me and even went so far as to say that she didn't want me in her house(to my bf).

I have absolutely no idea why she said this. I have always been polite and chatty with his parents, but maybe not chatty enough for her liking, evidentally?

I've known that this issue was going to become a bit of time bomb...

Dreamcatcher, you seem like a smart and thoughtful person, so I'll just tell you bottomline you should suck it up and go over to her home and be polite. You don't have to love your Potential Mother-In-Law (PMIL), you don't even have to like her. But you can be polite for the sake of your boyfriend and his family. You won't lose one bit of dignity unless you want to escalate this situation into a war. And frankly, you will lose on all fronts if you start one.

Yes, you have feelings, but so does everyone else in the situation. When the argument occurred where you found out PMIL didn't really like you, then that was an unfair weapon used against you to win the fight. Think about that for a minute. Some people don't know when to stop. How about you keep from being part of that same group? Stirring up strife and anger won't solve anything and it won't make you look good or feel any better. Don't let your feelings lead you around by the nose or let your imagination run wild with imagined slights.

Your boyfriend is still with you despite what his mother says. Do you need any more loyalty at the moment? It's not realistic to make him choose between you and his family. Basically, the only additional thing I can suggest is to forgive. There's no point in staying "in jail" with people that have hurt you and where you nurse your hurts and bitterness. Let yourself out of jail and be the better person for your own sake. Show your maturity.

If there's something important that you didn't mention that would change our responses to you, then you've been very naughty and must go stand in the corner until we let you out!;):)

BizzyC

You cant expect him to sever ties with his family because of you, think of the position you're putting him in.
You're leaving him with the option of keeping his relationship with his family, or with you and that's just not fair.

You need to stick it out, smile through your teeth, and put up with it if he's really that important to you.

bandraoi

Get over it.

Someone doesn't like you, so what?

If you're the sort of person who tries to emotionally blackmail her son into not going to her house than I can see why.

koneko

My gut feeling would have been the same as yours now, to not go because she's obviously an unreasonable cow, and that your BF should stand by you and put his foot down, "accept me and accept her, she's part of my life".

But in reality, it's better to stick with it. Go there, grin and bear it, and take the higher ground. It would probably be a better option. I would have a frank talk with the bf though and let him know it upset you that he didn't stand up for you, and tell him how it made you feel. But dont turn this into a war, as someone else said.

Your boyfriend might suffer from the same problem a fair amount of Irish guys do, "mammys boy syndrome". If he does, you're never ever going to win that war.

BizzyC

koneko wrote:

Your boyfriend might suffer from the same problem a fair amount of Irish guys do, "mammys boy syndrome". If he does, you're never ever going to win that war.

Might I ask you what you would do if your parents didn't like your boyfriend and he said you weren't allowed go see them because of it?

It would make you angry, and you would go see them anyway.

Family is family, he can't change that BF's, or GF's are options. They are people we choose to be with.

I feel sorry for the BF in this case, he's the one being pulled both ways.

Talliesin

koneko wrote:

My gut feeling would have been the same as yours now, to not go because she's obviously an unreasonable cow, and that your BF should stand by you and put his foot down, "accept me and accept her, she's part of my life".

It could be that the reason he doesn't do that is that he doesn't have the best relationship with his mother, or perhaps an reasonably good relationship, but still one were whatever the issue is here is an issue he is familiar with, but at the same time she is still his mother.

Don't make this a matter of loyalty. The loyalty you owe your partner is very different to the loyalty you owe your parents in any case, and unless they're completely abusive (to a dangerous extent) you can't really put the two in opposition.

koneko

BizzyC wrote:

Might I ask you what you would do if your parents didn't like your boyfriend and he said you weren't allowed go see them because of it?

For me personally, that wouldn't happen. My family would never place an ultimatum like that unless my partner had done something unforgivable, or dangerous. Other than that, even if they didn't like someone I'm with, they'd understand I'm happy and leave it at that. They wouldn't say "I don't want him in my house". I'm not sure how I'd react if I was in that situation. It wouldn't make me stop seeing the person I'm with, in any case. As you say, you've chosen to be with that person, so they must have qualities you like, you're not going to suddenly stop seeing them. It's a tough situation

I still think the best option is to grin and bear it, and to not start a war. Not to let it get to her. But I understand her gut feeling and why she's upset, it's a crappy situation. I don't envy her.

By "that war", I mean the one she'd be starting by making him choose, or by refusing to go to his mothers house.

BizzyC

I was just saying it's a bit unfair to use the "mammy's boy" label in this case.

If he was really a mammy's boy, the relationship wouldn't have lasted this long since she voiced a disliking towards the OP.

This is a case where he doesn't know what to do, because by refusing to go she'll be giving him an unfair ultimatum.

Think about it. If he does choose you over his mother, and thereby ruins that relationship, would you really be happy in the knowledge that you've taken on of the most important people in his life away from him, just cause you didn't want to see that person?

Mr. Presentable

I tend to agree with most of the advice here.

Be big. Bigger than his ma. Go along as if there's no problem. Be nice.

If he's any use he'll notice your sacrifice and appreciate it.

If he doesn't, well....

koneko

BizzyC wrote:

I was just saying it's a bit unfair to use the "mammy's boy" label in this case.

I didn't say he is, I said it's a possibility. Think Charlotte's husband in Sex and the City. If anyone remembers those episodes.
His mother expressing she doesn't like his girlfriend doesn't automatically mean he'd break up with her. It could come out this way, he brushes over what mammy dearest said, doesn't defend his girlfriend (and we don't know if he didn't, only he and his mam will know if he did), and pretends it never happened.

This is going off topic a bit tho.

But I agree, an ultimatum like that isn't healthy, and won't help, I don't envy either of you. Your bf is stuck between a rock and a hard place. You have to put on a brave face knowing your potential mother in law hates you.
I wonder why she hates you though.... did anything happen in the past? Or are you his first serious gf? Did she hate his previous girlfriends? Hmmm.

*Page*

for months my dad hated my partner and told him he was unwelcome!

i lost it at my dad.

and since then i havent spoken to my dad much!

last weekend i forced my guy to come up to my house and after the first few minutes of silence they started chatting and things seem to be a bit better now!

BizzyC

If you dont go, you'll be showing his mother that her meddling can work.
You need to keep going, eventually she's going to realise that she cant get rid of you, and learn to accept it.
If you dont, then she'll only make it worse.

Nuttzz

BizzyC wrote:

If you dont go, you'll be showing his mother that her meddling can work.
You need to keep going, eventually she's going to realise that she cant get rid of you, and learn to accept it.
If you dont, then she'll only make it worse.

exactly.

If you go you will show that your not afraid of her or that interested in her opinions of you. Plenty of people wont like you over your lifetime thats just they way it is.

I'd go, smile sweetly and act like nothing was ever said.

Your bf isnt going to argue with a old woman, he is more likely counting down the days to the inhertance.

Sarn

I experienced something similar with my ex-girlfriend. About a year and a half of seeing her she told me that her mum didn't like me. No reason (that I was told about at the time). I was always pleasant, chatty and courteous. Didn't let it bother me, took the higher ground. Telling someone to choose you over family is not a good route to take, especially when they're under that parent's thumb.

A year and a half later the mother increased the pressure on her to break up with me, putting my gf under serious pressure and making her very unhappy. Didn't help that she was under pressure at work as well. She told me that her parents didn't think I was good enough, wouldn't be able to keep her in the means that she was used to if we decided to have a family etc. The mother had been hoping it wouldn't last but after 3 years she was getting worried. As she didn't stick up for me at the time I was pretty hurt.

6 months later she was telling me that she couldn't take the pressure any more, it was easier to give me up then her job and family. Of course I'm aware that using family is also a good alternative to the "it's not you.....but" excuse.

Essentially, if your boyfriend is very close to his mother and is under her thumb you have to be very careful. If he didn't defend you at the time making him choose is not going to work. Hell, even being a perfect person mightn't work. At least you can take some satisfaction by taking the moral high ground. Bite your tongue, sicken her with pleasantness. Unfortunately as we know some people are never perfect for the parent's pride and joy. Maybe if you orchestrate to save her life or something...

Chinafoot

i could have written the original post myself!

in my situation i had been with by ex for 6 months and i had gotten along quite well with his mother. i was often quite shy around her and afraid of saying the wrong thing so, like yourself, she saw me as not being chatty enough and thought me rude.

At the 6 month mark his mother told him that he had to break up with me and if he refused he had to move out of the house. i didnt expect him to back his bags or anything but i did hope that the man who was telling me he was in love with me would at least try and reason with her....or at least defend me. instead he decided to keep me a secret for 3 months. i was worse for letting him :rolleyes:

Anyway, it was all getting too much for me and i was sick of feeling like crap the whole time, and when i told him this he said he'd sort it out. he told her we'd "gotten back together" on new years eve and she responded with "well shes not welcome in this house". We stuck together for another year and a half but suffice to say that relationship didnt last.
I understood that he was in a difficult situation but he was 22 years of age and as i saw it, i was going out with him and not his mother. I guess i just wasnt strong enough to cope with it.

to the OP, tell your boyfriend how you feel. do try to understand his position (she is his mother afterall) but do make your feelings known. im sure you're feeling like utter crap over his unwillingness to defend you and your relationship but he is in a tough position aswell.

like other posters have suggested, if you love him and want the relationship to work, be the bigger person. if you dont go her house she'll think she has won and that she was right about you. however, if you stand up for your relationship and be as nice as you can to her she might just realise that you're not some little hussy out to corrupt her precious baby

best of luck with it

Emmo

Im surprised no one has advised you to ask why?

I would want to know why!

Emmo

Chinafoot

Emmo wrote:

Im surprised no one has advised you to ask why?

I would want to know why!

Emmo

hehe, mothers and their sons! they dont seem to need an excuse. :rolleyes:

luckat

You're going to have to court her. Remember, if you marry the man, you marry the family.

Nobody just likes or dislikes someone - there's always something that makes them feel like that. Maybe mammy-protectiveness has come over her - maybe you'd had a row with the boyfriend and he went home and he was all down...?

Anyway, if you're going to stay with this guy, especially if you're going to have children with him, this isn't just his mother, it's someone you're going to be close to. And if you have children, this is going to be one of their grandmothers.

I'd suggest that you're nice to her, and forget about what she said, if you want to remain with this man.

secret_squirrel

Evil thought : Which will annoy the nasty biatch more - you going to her house or you staying away

By giving your BF an ultimatum you have played right into her hands. It takes 2 to start a war. As with most of the advice her - sicken her with sweetness. But dont make it obvious to your BF!

As an aside your BF needs to grow a spine - I would never have put up with that kind of emotional blackmail from my mother.

chillywilly

"She indicated to my bf late last year that she didn't like me and even went so far as to say that she didn't want me in her house(to my bf)."

ye that sounds like she just wants the perfect partner for her son,she probably wants someone EXACTLY LIKE HER.


"my bf didn't challenge what she said or stand up for me, express loyalty, respect towards me."

that is a bit strange, even cowardly on his part.

"He only told me months afterwards. I don't think that he intended to tell me - it was just in the heat of the moment, during an argument, that he blurted it out."

al least he stayed with you :rolleyes:

"I said that I wasn't going to go, and I said that I expected him not to go either, out of loyalty to me."

no no....that would be very wrong to try to exclude him from his family, im sure its hard for him too.

"My question is, what would you do in a similar situation - have you experienced similar in your own life?"

i would say confront his mother head on, if you cant solve the problem ask your BF if he can live with his mother hating you! If you ask him that then i think your problem will be solved.

Dreamcatcher

Thanks for the advice. Some really good advice there, has got me thinking.

Just to add...
The mother is not actually a bad person or anything, just quite domineering and a bit meddling(but I have heard of a lot worse!).
It's not like we know each other very well. I would've only seen his parents perhaps 6-8 times a year(including dropping into the house briefly and family gatherings). Now, it's been almost a year, which is what makes things that bit more difficult, from everyone's point of view.I could get on with her maybe in the future(well I thought I was!), but I just couldn't bring myself to go to this gathering. I'd just be too nervous.
If the invite had come from the parents, it would probably have been a bit easier to go along because then that would have sent a message to me that they'd reconsidered their position. It is after all their house, and it would just not be "in me" to just walk in and "pretend" that everything was perfect. I would have felt that I was being brazen if I'd done that, and trespassing, and just wouldn't have enjoyed the evening, or been myself.
My bf doesn't live with them btw, so it wouldn't be like it was "his" house too - that would be different - if that was the case I would probably feel entitled to be there, despite his parents feelings.
Maybe in future, if they invite me, I'll just give the mother the benefit of the doubt that she didn't really mean what she said, was in a bad mood which is possible, I suppose. But until they actually invite me, I have no way of knowing what the situation is!

iguana

I would suspect that his mother may actually not have a problem with you personally, but with the fact that you are the most important person in his life now and not her. It doesn't sound as if he and his mother have a close/best friend type relationship where as despite this issue you and he are probably the two closest people in each others lives.

Some people have awful problems with their children becoming adults and not needing them in the same way as they did as children. Women of your "mother-in-laws" generation tended to have little in their lives outside of their family and feel lost and resentful of the fact that their children now have lives that they are just a small part of rather than the focus. She may be jealous of the fact that you now play this role.

She could also have issues with the fact that ye are living together but not married. Many older people have problems with that even though they don't say it. Remember even 15 years ago what you are doing would have been a scandal, she was in her late 50's then and it is hard to let go of a moral structure you have spent so long believing in.

Even if I'm wrong and she really hates you rather than what you represent you can't expect your bf to exclude her from his life. She is his mother, she is old and ill. Would you really want to have him miss her final years? Do you think he could forgive you if he did? If you have children while she is still alive would you deny them the chance to know their grandmother?

The reason he didn't defend you is possibly because he is not in the habit of arguing with her. If when he was a teenager and she lectured him about drugs, sex or alcohol was he the type to nod and smile, do his own thing and hide it from her? Or was he the type to debate (for the debate read - scream blue murder) the issue with her until if she didn't see it his way she at least knew exactly what he was doing because he was too defiant to lie to her?

If he was more the first type then it isn't surprising that he didn't stand up for you. And while I think he should have firmly said something to the effect of "well I love her and I would rather you don't speak about her like that" I would see his actions more as a lack of respect for his mother's opinion than a disrespect for you.- Simply put he felt what she said was important enough to disagree with.

It is unfortunate that you are in this position, but you are far from alone. I would suggest that you grin and bear it as best you can. Go to the house if you feel you can do so calmly. Show your bf that you are bigger than she is. Be nice to her, smother her with kindness, bring a gift? Go as often as you feel you can when you are asked. But if you are feeling stressed for other reasons or just that you can't handle it make a polite excuse, what ever you do try don't let yourself get angry in front of her - you may say something you can never take back.

Let this strenghten the relationship between you and your bf. Tell him how much this hurts you but for his sake you will continue your relationship with her as if he had not told you. (Hell if you end up getting married and she really does hate you - you can take pleasure in exactly how much it p****s her off!)

Above all else remember how horrible this is and in 20-30 years time don't do the same thing to your children's partners.

the_syco

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

This stood out.. You are gonna loose out if you pursue this path!!

Jesus is right. Bloods thicker than water, and if you try to make him choose between his mom, and you, you'll get dumped!

=-=

Also, iguana's 1st paragraph above may also be true.

gubby

she is old and ill.
whaaat? where did it say she was old and ill.. besides 70 is not exactly on her deathbed. speaking as a mother who has both a son in law and a daughter in law. (love them both to bits) I am wondering why op doesnt TALK to this woman. woman to woman can sort out most things. if I was op I would drop in on the mother, explaine what was said and how hurt she was. tell her how much she loves her son and want it to last, therefore want to be friends with her too. I get the impression that this woman is not a bad person like most posters seem to assume. someone asked why??? I too ask why why why.... did you not ask your boyfriend exactly what the reason was. there could be any number of reason.. bad hair day? just feeling down? or like some other post said. perhaps he came home after a row and was bitching a bit about you.... which would expaine why he may not want to elobrate on the reason his mom doesnt like her. I feel sorry for the mother.. am i alone?

iguana

gubby wrote:

she is old and ill.
whaaat? where did it say she was old and ill.. besides 70 is not exactly on her deathbed.

The op says the woman has a heart condition, which was why she suspected the son did not wish to argue with her. And the average life expectancy for women in this country was in 2003 78.5. I'm sorry but while it could be quite possible for her to live another 25 years, 70 is reasonably old.

It is nasty to speak badly of someone her son loves without good cause. (which she may well have - I only know what the op has posted). Having a bad day or feeling unwell does not excuse it. If this was the case she would surely have mentioned to her son since that she didn't really mean it. She hurt her sons gf, it must have hurt her son and it has hurt their relationship, if she did this without cause that was a horrible thing to do, why would you feel sorry for her?

People don't have to like the partners of the people the love. But unless they honestly believe they are hurting them in someway they should keep it to themselves.

The only way I would feel sorry for his mother - based on the information we have - is that she appears to be the kind of person who thinks she still has the right to control her son's life and attempts to control him in a such horrible way. It can't be a situation which will make her happy in the long run.

Duracell22

athena 2000 wrote: »

Dreamcatcher, you seem like a smart and thoughtful person, so I'll just tell you bottomline you should suck it up and go over to her home and be polite. You don't have to love your Potential Mother-In-Law (PMIL), you don't even have to like her. But you can be polite for the sake of your boyfriend and his family. You won't lose one bit of dignity unless you want to escalate this situation into a war. And frankly, you will lose on all fronts if you start one.

Yes, you have feelings, but so does everyone else in the situation. When the argument occurred where you found out PMIL didn't really like you, then that was an unfair weapon used against you to win the fight. Think about that for a minute. Some people don't know when to stop. How about you keep from being part of that same group? Stirring up strife and anger won't solve anything and it won't make you look good or feel any better. Don't let your feelings lead you around by the nose or let your imagination run wild with imagined slights.

Your boyfriend is still with you despite what his mother says. Do you need any more loyalty at the moment? It's not realistic to make him choose between you and his family. Basically, the only additional thing I can suggest is to forgive. There's no point in staying "in jail" with people that have hurt you and where you nurse your hurts and bitterness. Let yourself out of jail and be the better person for your own sake. Show your maturity.

If there's something important that you didn't mention that would change our responses to you, then you've been very naughty and must go stand in the corner until we let you out!;):)

the long and the short of it is she sees you as a threat because she sees how he feels for you, my advice, be as civil and polite as necessary, you can always give her a "special look" every now and again that will leave her look like nothing but a trouble maker when she tries complaining about you, if she's 70, chances she's on the way out soon and if you actively dont get on with her, when she goes, he'll turn on you and that won't be good. wait it out! Also it helps if you have a few other things planned or something else to do so that you can suggest turning down invites for those reasons rather than just because you dont want to go. Irish mothers in law can be so manipulative but you'll never get their sons to believe that so just fight them with manners and remember....he doesnt sleep with his Mammy!. there are many who will dissagree but I've survived my motherinlaw for 18 years now, she even wanted to come on our honeymoon, I know what I'm talking about!

astra2000

This tread is from 2005.

seamus

Duracell22, please be aware of the time & date of threads when replying. Threads more than a week or two old rarely require any further input