Red Cow Roundabout.. Info needed!

Trotter

I dont normally have any need to drive in Dublin (Im from the south) but can someone give me the definitive guide to turning right from newlands cross, going southbound towards the tallaght exit.

My expert Dublin driver GF has said stay on the right lane coming towards the roundabout, and scoot across (YES I'll look in my mirrors, I can see people hitting the reply button already) into the middle lane, in order to line me up to be on the outside lane of the slip road going down to the M50.

Its the moving across into the middle lane on the roundabout that I hate!!

Am I right in my little manouvre?

(For all of you "you shouldnt hauve a fule loicence roish if you cant use the M50 loike" brigade.. dont bother replying!) I purposely avoid driving in Dublin because the traffic sucks!!

antoinolachtnai

I think you are right there. As I understand it, you actually have the right of way to move from the inside lane to an outer lane. (Not that that makes much difference in practice).

Obviously, don't depend on your windscreen mirror when making this manouver. You have to be careful of the blindspot caused by the rear passenger-side pillar. I think it is required to look over your shoulder as well, and it is obviously sensible to use the passenger-side mirror if you have one.

Capt'n Midnight

antoinolachtnai wrote:

As I understand it, you actually have the right of way to move from the inside lane to an outer lane.

NO!
you have to yield to traffic already in a lane you are moving to.
Go read the rules of the road. :rolleyes:

The mad cow roundabout has lanes that channel you away form the centre lane so as you go around you are moved into the left lane.

In the UK you are only allowed to go around a roundabout three times. AFAIK there is no such law here so plenty of time to get into the [strike]right[/strike] correct lane.

DubTony

Unfortunately, different motorway junction roundabouts have slightly different rules. Technically your gf is right. Off the top of my head I believe you can turn right (southbound) from the middle lane of the roundabout, but expect to jockey for position with cars in the right side lane as you take position to enter the motorway. Chances are you'll be stopped at the lights as you go around the corner and the aforementioned cars will try to enter the left lane, i.e. scoot across. (which they are quite entitled to do). Sometimes it's better and safer to be one of the jockeying cars on the right side lane. Remember, 2 lanes (left and middle) on that section of roundabout that leads onto motorway go to motorway, middle and right head to south.

A different scenario at N4/M50 junction where N4 middle lane traffic MUST carry on straight to Palmerstown and city.

causal

I always approach in the right-hand-lane when coming along the N7 and turning right at the Mad Cow onto the M50 Southbound.

Stay in the right hand lane until the cars in the middle lane peel off left to head towards town, as they peel off left you can change lane left*. You can also change over to the very outside lane*.

Tips:
In case you don't already know there are traffic lights on the roundabout - don't forget to obey them while doing the above manouvres.
Typically the lights at your exit point from the roundabout are red by the time you get around there, so be prepared to stop.
Before/When they turn green - watch carefully to your left for cars breaking the lights coming from the direction of town.
Just before you enter the slip road for the M50 (southbound) there is a set of traffic lights specifically for the Luas - be sure to obey them. Typically they turn green a few seconds after your lights turn green to allow you to leave the roundabout.
Just after the Luas lights there is road merging from your left (traffic from town wanting to join the M50) so be wary of drifters not yielding.
Finally, when you're merging to the right onto the M50 - watch out for inconsiderate hoggers who won't let you merge, don't foget to indicate!
Now you know why it's called the Mad Cow Roundabout.

fwiw heading east on the N7 and turning right at Newlands Cross onto the R113 (Belgard Road) south towards Tallaght is a different kettle of fish - it's a traffic lighted junction with a right turn (2 lanes turning ito 2 lanes iirc).

* - provided the way is clear and it is safe to do so; yield to traffic already in the lane; if in doubt yield.


hth,
causal

gerrydublin

Trotter wrote:

My expert Dublin driver GF has said stay on the right lane coming towards the roundabout, and scoot across (YES I'll look in my mirrors, I can see people hitting the reply button already) into the middle lane, in order to line me up to be on the outside lane of the slip road going down to the M50.

she is dead right, but no-one else seems to obeys this rule.
The councul even painted white arrows on the roundabout to help people but still no good. They have painted straight on arrows on the middle and the left lane, while a right turning arrow is painted on the right hand lane.
What a waste! Almost no-one in Ireland follows arrows.

What should happen in practice is that the middle and left lane go straight on,
the cars in the right hand lane can then WERVE over to the left hand lane once they PASS the junction for heading towards the city. Then the cars coming up the ramp from the M50 who are heading onto the N7, they enter the centre and right lanes.
What does happen in practice, is that cars approaching the roundabout from the N7, purposely go into the middle lane and then swerve into the left hand lane once they are past the junction to go to the city. The number of times I've been behind someone on the right hand lane who wishes to go STRAIGHT-ON, and almost causes an accident as the car in the centre lane swerves across the car in front on me!!!
As you approach the junction, just think to yourself, I'm in Ireland, so that means close your eyes and drive, ignore all your mirrors, the signs painted on the road, hell even the traffic lights for the Luas crossover on the M50 ramp, everyone else bloody seems to!

Our man in Havana

It is the most dangerous roundabout in the country. I hate it with a passion.

a_ominous

gerrydublin wrote:

she is dead right, but no-one else seems to obeys this rule.
The councul even painted white arrows on the roundabout to help people but still no good. They have painted straight on arrows on the middle and the left lane, while a right turning arrow is painted on the right hand lane.
What a waste! Almost no-one in Ireland follows arrows.

How easy is it to see arrows painted on the road in bumper to bumper traffic?

Alun

As you approach the junction, just think to yourself, I'm in Ireland, so that means close your eyes and drive, ignore all your mirrors, the signs painted on the road, hell even the traffic lights for the Luas crossover on the M50 ramp, everyone else bloody seems to!

I used this roundabout yesterday for the first time in my life, driving eastbound on the N7 and wanting to go southbound on the M50. Apart from the road markings which were pretty much invisible due to the amount of traffic, the thing that confused the hell out of me was when I actually got 3/4 of the way round to where the exit was supposed to be I actually missed it. Why? Maybe the fact that it was s single lane only and looked so narrow, there were traffic lights on it (at red), and there were absolutely no signs on the exit itself to suggest that this was in fact the exit I wanted. It just didn't "look like" a proper exit onto an on ramp of a motorway to me, but more like a separate exit into an industrial estate or something. And then there's the lights which stay on red until you've almost ground to a halt and then spring to green.

DubTony

Alun wrote:

I used this roundabout yesterday for the first time in my life, driving eastbound on the N7 and wanting to go southbound on the M50. Apart from the road markings which were pretty much invisible due to the amount of traffic, the thing that confused the hell out of me was when I actually got 3/4 of the way round to where the exit was supposed to be I actually missed it. Why? Maybe the fact that it was s single lane only and looked so narrow, there were traffic lights on it (at red), and there were absolutely no signs on the exit itself to suggest that this was in fact the exit I wanted. It just didn't "look like" a proper exit onto an on ramp of a motorway to me, but more like a separate exit into an industrial estate or something. And then there's the lights which stay on red until you've almost ground to a halt and then spring to green.

When you consider that the southbound on ramp Alun mentions looks like a car park entrance, but is actually the access to the busiest road in the country from the busiest junction in the country, it speaks volumes for the attitudes of the planners. A friends father is an engineer on SDCC and has come home from work some nights not knowing whether he should laugh or cry, as he's ordered to create yet another silly junction. A colleague from Cork asked me one day as we went past that ramp if it was the road into the new Luas Park & Ride. He didn't stop laughing until Rathcoole after I showed him the entrance to the park and ride site.

Alun

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that this exit off the roundabout looks like a complete joke. Like you said, it looks more like an entrance into a carpark, or the Luas P+R. I just drove straight past it thinking "No, that can't possibly be it!" ... but it was

Victor

Trotter wrote:

I dont normally have any need to drive in Dublin (Im from the south) but can someone give me the definitive guide to turning right from newlands cross, going southbound towards the tallaght exit.

Turn off at Citywest follow sign for the N81 and go via the Tallght Bypass, less intimidating.

Trotter

Victor wrote:

Turn off at Citywest follow sign for the N81 and go via the Tallght Bypass, less intimidating.

No way! I, ladies and gentlemen, am back from my big spin to the big roundabout in the big smoke.

The full report as follows..
All nerves were put to the back of my mind at Newlands Cross.. where the radio was turned off, windows down for a clear mind, and I was ready to take the big mad cow on.

I had got into the right hand lane somewhere near wexford just to make sure I was ready for the big cow.

When a fella asked me out of his window as I waited to get onto the roundabout "Is this the Naas Road".. :rolleyes: I knew there were people worse off than me.. but I couldnt afford to relax. My little car could feel I was under pressure and I knew it wasnt going to play that conking out game it has enjoyed in previous weeks. This was too important.

And the lights went green... and low, the heavens rejoiced and angels sang as I performed an immaculate and beep free manouvre to send me on my way to the Tallaght exit.

Colleagues.. your assistance was vital, and I dedicate my roundabout experience to all of you.

PS.. I came back the same way so the mad cow was easy peasy coming home.

Im thinking of getting a Dublin Taxi Plate now.. we're that confident so we are!!

OH! And to the FAT woman in the mondeo that beeped at me on the Naas Dual Carriageway because I wouldnt pull into the inside lane because I wasnt ready to give the truck driver beside me a dose of the runs....

UP YOURS!

..country roooaaads, take me hooooooome, to the placeeee, with no red cooowwww.... Sing with me!

DubTony

Congratulations Trotter.

Your achievement shows that anyone can navigate the Red Cow if they've got the right attitude, are prepared for the worst and do lots of research first. Good on ya.

gerrydublin

a_ominous wrote:

How easy is it to see arrows painted on the road in bumper to bumper traffic?

The problem is that it seems South Dublin county council are out of kilter with other county councils. On the approach, and I stress the word approach, in fact at the Monastery Road/Luas P+R junction, there is a massive signpost on the right hand side indicating what lane people should get into.
The problem with this is that most other county councils only put signs physically at junctions when it's its too late for people to change lanes.
Therefore Irish people get confused when they see signposts before the junction, and do what they do elsewhere and that's bully their way through.

trotter wrote:

OH! And to the FAT woman in the mondeo that beeped at me on the Naas Dual Carriageway because I wouldnt pull into the inside lane because I wasnt ready to give the truck driver beside me a dose of the runs....

In Dublin (and strangely enough in Cork) people believe that the overtaking lane is for people who wish to exceed the speed limit only. You are in THEIR way if they wish to break the speed limit. It's their lane, if you want to only drive AT the speed limit then push over to the inside lane. For cars doing under the speed limit, their lane is supposed to be the hard shoulder under this method of thinking.
The greatest example of this, is MEN driving cars with engines of 2 litre plus on the M50 between Firhouse and Leopardstown, or boyracers in Nissan Micras.
You see under their method of thinking, the government built a 2 lane road purposely so that people can break the law on one of them. If everyone was to drive at the speed limit they could make do with just one lane.
Best ever was a friend of mine pulled over by a garda for doing the old 30mph on the overtaking lane of the N11 dual carriageway(Loughlinstown). His defense was that there were signs up for road works, and the max speed limit was 30 mph. The garda told him to stick to the inside lane in future.
Only in Ireland!

Trotter

gerrydublin wrote:

You are in THEIR way if they wish to break the speed limit. It's their lane, if you want to only drive AT the speed limit then push over to the inside lane.

I would have moved in.. I only go on the outside lane when overtaking, but this time there was a line of artic lorries... and ya know what... there was no way my little car was goin into a 15ft gap between 2 lorries doing 80km/hr. If she'd waited 30 seconds, Id have been well past the lorries and Id have gone into the inside lane straight away.

A lack of patience methinks.. imagine.. a lady driver without patience!! :eek:
*ducks to avoid the insults*

I HATE getting beeped at if Im in the right. If Im wrong.. hands up! Fair enough. But my God its annoying if you know what you're doing is right.

causal

gerrydublin wrote:

In Dublin (and strangely enough in Cork) people believe that the overtaking lane is for people who wish to exceed the speed limit only. You are in THEIR way if they wish to break the speed limit. It's their lane, if you want to only drive AT the speed limit then push over to the inside lane. For cars doing under the speed limit, their lane is supposed to be the hard shoulder under this method of thinking.

Rules of the Road (current edition) page 32:

LANE DISCIPLINE
The normal "keep left" rules applies. This means that you stay in the left hand lane unless you are overtaking.

An example of the type of idiocy that ignorance of this rule generates:
I'm driving along the left hand lane of the M50 heading towards Sandyford at about 95kph (the limit is 100kph). About 200 meters ahead is a white car-van hogging the overtaking lane - I'm closing in on him (he's doing about 85-90kph), and about 100 meters behind me and closing fast is a black VW Golf (maybe 110-120kph). NOTE: We are the only 3 cars on our side of the Motorway.

Of course white car-van doesn't move from the overtaking lane and black golf passes me, and closes up to him and tailgates (my pet hate) waiting for the idiot to move over. Eventually he moves over. Since I'm closing on him and he's moved into the lefthand lane - I execute a textbook overtaking manouvre

When I'm about 40 meters ahead of him I return to the left-hand lane. A few seconds later I check my rear view mirror - you guessed it - he was moving back into the overtaking lane.

Even if he was taking a right hand turn at the Leopardstown off ramp roundabout - getting into the right hand lane 4 km in advance on a motorway is imho careless driving.

Sometimes it seems people hog the overtaking deliberately (fwiw not in the instance trotter described above)

causal

gerrydublin

causal wrote:

Rules of the Road (current edition) page 32:An example of the type of idiocy that ignorance of this rule generates:
I'm driving along the left hand lane of the M50 heading towards Sandyford at about 95kph (the limit is 100kph). About 200 meters ahead is a white car-van hogging the overtaking lane - I'm closing in on him (he's doing about 85-90kph), and about 100 meters behind me and closing fast is a black VW Golf (maybe 110-120kph). NOTE: We are the only 3 cars on our side of the Motorway.

I agree 100% with you, in theory no-one, absolutely no-one should be in the overtaking lane if they are not overtaking. But, because of traffic that's not viable.
Therefore at the very least, EVERYONE in the overtaking lane should be driving at exactly the speed limit unless traffic prohibits such actions.
If they wish to do less than the maximum, they should use the inside lane.
This should be an offence that is policed!

The question is, and that rule you showed is a bit ambiguous; does Irish law, state that you can brake the speed limit law to overtake?
If you can't brake the law to overtake, then you could argue, that any criticism of another driver breaking the law by not moving over is a bit rich!
If you can brake the law to overtake, then why set a maximum speed limit as opposed to setting a recommended speed limit, with a maximum set for overtaking.

BaZmO*

Right, here's a mad question to the OP. If you were coming from Naas to go to the Red Cow Roundabout to get onto the Tallaght exit, why didn't you just turn at Newlands Cross to get up to Tallaght that way?

B.

Trotter

BaZmO* wrote:

Right, here's a mad question to the OP. If you were coming from Naas to go to the Red Cow Roundabout to get onto the Tallaght exit, why didn't you just turn at Newlands Cross to get up to Tallaght that way?

B.

Cause I was going to Templeogue

BaZmO*

Trotter wrote:

Cause I was going to Templeogue

Yeah but you could of taken the right at Newlands Cross and then went up to the Belgard Road and then gotten onto the M50 south bound where the LUAS crosses the Belgard Road?

Or you could've avoided the M50 altogether (did you say you were a learner driver? ) and headed up the Belgard Road right up to the the top where it joins the N17(?) taken a left and that would've brought you to Templeogue.

Just an option!

B.

causal

gerrydublin wrote:

The question is, and that rule you showed is a bit ambiguous; does Irish law, state that you can brake the speed limit law to overtake?

No you can't break the speed limit. There was a thread about this in the last couple of months.

If you can't brake the law to overtake, then you could argue, that any criticism of another driver breaking the law by not moving over is a bit rich!

Sure you can argue that both are wrong-doing. But the outside lane hogger isn't the gardai (usually ) - and it's not his job to enforce the speed limit by not moving in.

Of course it depends on the particular situation. If there's heavy traffic in both lanes then moving over isn't such an issue because the overtaker can't go anywhere anyway.
The problem mainly arises when the outside lane is fairly empty and some numpty is sitting there not overtaking, but acting as a mobile roadblock travelling at the same speed as the inner lane.

causal

causal

BaZmO* wrote:

Or you could've avoided the M50 altogether (did you say you were a learner driver? ) and headed up the Belgard Road right up to the the top where it joins the N17(?) taken a left and that would've brought you to Templeogue.

Yep, but it's the N81 not N17. Turn right from the N7 (Naas dueller) onto the R113 (Belgard Road) @ Newland Cross, follow until end and turn left onto the N81 (Tallaght bypass).
N17 - wasn't that The Waterboys song *everybody sing*
"Oh I wish I was on the N17, stone walls and the grass is green"

causal

Trotter

causal wrote:

Yep, but it's the N81 not N17. Turn right from the N7 (Naas dueller) onto the R113 (Belgard Road) @ Newland Cross, follow until end and turn left onto the N81 (Tallaght bypass).
N17 - wasn't that The Waterboys song *everybody sing*
"Oh I wish I was on the N17, stone walls and the grass is green"

causal

I thought it was the sawdoctors.. hmmmm..

Anyways.. Ive a full licence for 4 years but never needed to drive in Dublin before. Im from the place outside of Dublin.... ya know, da country.

Im a big boy now so I should be able to use the mad cow. Its more direct to where I was going. Thanks for the alternative though!

BaZmO*

causal wrote:

Yep, but it's the N81 not N17. Turn right from the N7 (Naas dueller) onto the R113 (Belgard Road) @ Newland Cross, follow until end and turn left onto the N81 (Tallaght bypass).
N17 - wasn't that The Waterboys song *everybody sing*
"Oh I wish I was on the N17, stone walls and the grass is green"

causal

LOL. I can't believe I said the N17!!

And it it was most definitely the Sawdoctors.

Sorry Trotter I misread your first post I thought you said you were on a provisional that's why I gave the alternative route (and it is actually more direct than going the Red Cow way - Less traffic!)

B.

causal

Trotter wrote:

I thought it was the sawdoctors.. hmmmm..

You're quite right it was the Sawdoctors ; my confusion was because Mike Scott of the Waterboys produced the N17 single for The Sawdoctors.

causal

gerrydublin

BaZmO* wrote:

Yeah but you could of taken the right at Newlands Cross and then went up to the Belgard Road and then gotten onto the M50 south bound where the LUAS crosses the Belgard Road?

Or you could've avoided the M50 altogether (did you say you were a learner driver? ) and headed up the Belgard Road right up to the the top where it joins the N17(?) taken a left and that would've brought you to Templeogue.

Just an option!

B.

OR if you were coming from Naas or beyond,
drive into Naas,
go to the top of the town, i.e Fynans pub(it may have changed name since) at the top of Naas town,
head out left towards the hospital,
but keep going out towards Punchestown,
then follow the back road to Rathcoole (its a crappy ould back road but goes more or less parallel to the N7),
continue straight through the hills of rathcoole and down saggart hill,
taking a right in saggart village up towards the blessington road,
join the blessington road,
go towards Jobstown,
take a right up Killnarden,
and follow that new road through the industrial estate towards Firhouse,
and then take a right to come out at the Old Mill
then a left to come out at Templeogue Bridge, or the Blue Haven to be accurate.
It all depends on whether you really love your car's suspension system or not!

Be careful using Belgard Road, the Gardai tend to try to catch people speeding on that road, it's about the only road in the South Dublin they seem to police on a REGULAR basis. Although 7 or 8 years ago, it was the night England lost to Germany in the penalty shoot-out, I did see a garda on the stretch or road between Newlands cross and the Red Cow, have yet to see one since though, although I'm told they do exist.

BaZmO*

gerrydublin wrote:

Be careful using Belgard Road, the Gardai tend to try to catch people speeding on that road, it's about the only road in the South Dublin they seem to police on a REGULAR basis. Although 7 or 8 years ago, it was the night England lost to Germany in the penalty shoot-out, I did see a garda on the stretch or road between Newlands cross and the Red Cow, have yet to see one since though, although I'm told they do exist.

I've only ever been caught speeding once and that was on the Belgard Road. The Garda speed trap white or green van is always there.
And they're also always at the stretch of road between the Red Cow and Newlands Cross for some reason.

B.

causal

gerrydublin wrote:

Although 7 or 8 years ago, it was the night England lost to Germany in the penalty shoot-out, I did see a garda on the stretch or road between Newlands cross and the Red Cow, have yet to see one since though, although I'm told they do exist.

Oh they exist there alright - usually obscured by poles and road signs; they also monitor the 50kmh 6-lane carriageway between the red-cow and the long-mile road :mad:

causal