Getting a negative job reference. How do you move on?

J-blk

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone has had any similar experiences and how you dealt with it.

My wife completed a one year FAS endorsed course in child minding last year and in January, took a six month contract job in a creche. From the start, things were kind of dodgy but that's not the important part. My wife took the job and stayed at it, even though things bothered her - she is quite an introvert and hates doing interviews, so I think she went and settled for less than she could have gotten at that point.

Her contract was supposed to expire around a week ago - however, they gave her a week's notice and told her she would be finishing up two weeks early. They gave her a pretty basic "neutral" written reference and when she asked why she was being let go, they told her it was simply the end of the six month period and they simply did not need her at this point.

Ok then.... she applied for a few more jobs and got no answer. One of the interviews she got though, the lady that owned the creche was very impressed with her and had her wait, while she went and called the previous employer. When she got back, she told my wife that she wanted to be honest with her and that the previous lot, gave a horrible reference. Because of this, she would not be able to hire her. They essentially said she lacked initiative (ok...) and even went as far to say that she was lazy (?!).

This is complete and utter sh**e. Yes, I am biased (of course, I am - I'm talking about my wife anyway) but I know how she works. Lazy? She worked in that sh**hole from 8 to 6 every day and they paid no overtime or anything, amongst other things.

Now, my wife is totally frustrated by this and does not know what to do. If she wipes these guys off her CV, the only reference she has in relation to child minding is the FAS course co-ordinator and no job reference.

So, how do you move on and find another job in your chosen field? Can some idiotic employer destroy your professional life like this?

And on another note, if they said insulting things like "lazy", is this not some form of slander or deflamation of character? Could I do anything to them, legally? Of course, I could only prove they say these things, if I called them myself and recorded the call - but this would be under false pretenses so....

Anyway, though I'm feeling a bit vengeful, I'd like to ignore these guys and move on with our lives. My main concern is what are my wife's options with no previous employer reference? Should she just forget about the course and what she chose to do and just try to get a job in Tesco?

garthv

Bad references like that have led to libel cases in the past...
Take it to the small claims court

astec123

Remove the job reference and work on getting a good reference elsewhere. And everytime you can make sure to take a punch at the old employers company to friends and whatever. Call the old employer and ask them yourself for a reference, see what they say, say your looking at here CV, that of course you will be and probe what they say, dont get angry just keep probing.

Larianne

Also maybe get a personal reference on her CV. Someone who knows her personally, like a mate/relative, who is a teacher is a good one, deals with kids etc. She shouldn't stop trying coz of one lousy employer!

astec123

She shouldn't stop trying coz of one lousy employer!

Too true. If its her dream nothing should stop her.

J-blk

GaRtH_V - I think it becomes a case of their word, our word though. How do I prove what they are saying? Recording the call under false pretenses will most likely not be acceptable. Sure, if the lady that brought this to our attention was a witness (or other potential employers) but I can't see people doing that...

As for not stopping because of one lousy reference, the problem is that it's her ONLY reference in this field - the FAS contact isn't a job reference per se.

The other problem is how big a set back this is for her - she is a quiet and reserved person and this does not help. Personally, if this was in relation to myself, I'd call the former employer up and give him a piece of my mind... It just seems frustrating that some petty employer can do something like this (which I can't understand why they would even do this - it's not like she ever had arguments with them or anything) and there's nothing an employee can do.

Plastic Scouser

J-blk wrote:

the FAS contact isn't a job reference per se.

The FAS reference may not technically be a job reference but the lecturer/tutor for your wife's course must surely be qualified in this field and should therefore be a more than acceptable referee.

Also, is there anyone at the company who had a more favourable impression of your wife, who she could put down as a referee instead? Maybe someone higher up the chain she got along with instead of her direct manager?

If all else fails, then she can include the job on her CV but is not obliged to include someone from there as a referee. She could offer her tutor's reference and another character reference instead...or even from a different job she was in previously in a different field. If her future employers ask why she hasn't given a referee from this job (which, in my experience is unlikely) she can either tell the truth (diplomatically - or maybe not?!!), or just tell them that the manager she worked under is no longer with the company and nobody else would be in a position to talk about her time there.

In my experience, as long as you provide the requested number of referees to future employees (and they're good ones!) they are not too concerned about exactly where they're from!

Good luck to your wife!

J-blk

Plastic Scouser wrote:

Also, is there anyone at the company who had a more favourable impression of your wife, who she could put down as a referee instead? Maybe someone higher up the chain she got along with instead of her direct manager?

Unfortunately, I wouldn't call this a "company". It's simply a creche, where the parents own it and their daughter is the manager (gee, I wonder how she got that job!). So, I would expect the lot of them to give the same answer though, at the moment, I don't know who gave the reference in question. The owner or the manager? My money is on the manager, but would the owner (er... her dad) contradict her story?

In any case, I'll probably wipe them as a reference but what I was really interested in, was what you have covered: can I still leave that job on the CV, but not use them as a reference? Because if I remove the job completely, then she has to explain what she was doing for the last 6 months, plus, it puts her a 0 work experience in a creche...

Thanks for the advise .

RicardoSmith

I didn't think people were allowed to give a bad CV these days.

Newaglish

I was told that it actually counts as slander 99% of the time when they give you a bad reference, unless they can really back it up. I'd talk to a solicitor! Or maybe ask them for a written reference on headed paper that she can bring with her to interviews? They're less likely to say "Ya, she's a lazy idiot", if they know she'll be reading it.

WhiteWashMan

to be honest being called lazy is a very subjective thing.

your wife is better off giving a different reference, and saying that she left her last place of employment under a cloud because of x, y and z. and that you are unlikely to get a positive view out of them.

J-blk

RicardoSmith wrote:

I didn't think people were allowed to give a bad CV these days.

CV = Reference I assume? As with most things, what people are allowed to do and what people end up doing, can be very different things...

As for the whole slander thing, it will most likely require huge amounts of time, serious money and there's no guarantee you'll get anywhere.

And I think they did use the term "lazy" though I will be confirming that soon. It wasn't simply implied and that's the problem. In any case, I'll be wiping them from her CV as a reference. I already have a headed letter reference from them, which simply states neutral facts, like working from x to y and being punctual, etc...

That does actually raise another question for me though: if you give a written reference from someone, but not use them as a contact on your CV, can your interviewer call them for one (given that their details are on the headed letter) anyway?

Our man in Havana

They are not supposed to call them, but that don't stop them. One place I went for a job called every former employer listed in the CV, despite saying "references upon request".

WhiteWashMan wrote:

your wife is better off giving a different reference, and saying that she left her last place of employment under a cloud because of x, y and z. and that you are unlikely to get a positive view out of them.

Would that not lead to an immediate adverse inference being formed?

Great Baldini

I think what your wife needs is help to stand on her own feet - The language you are using ("...In any case, I'll be wiping them from her CV as a reference...") suggests to me that you're getting a little too involved and creating a dependancy unwittingly.

By all means, you can advise someone else on matters relating to their CV, but it looks to me like you're taking a little too much control of her situation for her good or yours.

The message you might be inadvertently giving her is that she needs to have you around to cope. Thats not necessarily the best thing for her right ?
You won't be there field the questions at her next interview or as she copes with the day to day challenges of working life. Continuing to micro-manage her situation might be having the effect of reinforcing her feelings of inadequacy rather than building up her confidence.

I'd suggest she look at some personal development / assertiveness training courses to begin with....

For the next job application, she could use "references available on request". When the question of her prior experience is raised, she will then be in a better position to positively explain what happened with a higher sense of belief in herself and in her own abilities to cope.

Hope this helps and good luck.

GB

J-blk

Great Baldini wrote:

I think what your wife needs is help to stand on her own feet - The language you are using ("...In any case, I'll be wiping them from her CV as a reference...") suggests to me that you're getting a little too involved and creating a dependancy unwittingly.

She can stand on her own feet - however, as I did say, interviews are not her strong point and having something like this is not helpful and most certainly, not called for.

I don't manage everything for her but I help her where I can and there are certain things that I have to do. English is not her native language and she does not use computers that much so I write up her CVs since I can express things better in written form plus, I can style the document correctly. That is all.

And in all fairness, I asked for people's advise on coping with a malicious job reference. I did not ask for physco-babble or marriage councelling so if you're looking for training in those areas, thanks, but I'll pass...

Great Baldini

Sorry J-Blk - no offence was intended.

/BG

nesf

Great Baldini wrote:

Sorry J-Blk - no offence was intended.

/BG

No harm done. Just welcome to being owned

Play nice

J-blk

I didn't mean to offend you either - anger displacement issues I guess .

I do appreciate everyone who takes time to offer their help/suggestions and in the same way, I appreciate some of the things mentioned in your original post.

My only point was that I want to keep this on topic and generally, I want to see if people have been in this situation or even if not, what some more experienced people may have to say in the matter. My wife's mentality may be one for the "Personal Issues" forum but I kind of think it's irrelevant in this thread.

However, I am sorry for my tone - I can be a bit on the sarcastic side some times and at this moment in time, I'm constantly thinking of things like blowing the place up, etc (kinda disturbing, given that we are talking about a creche and all!)...

Great Baldini

Hi J-BLk

I hope it all works out. I have something in this area that might be of interest to you - I don't want to post it here - PM me and we can discuss off line.

All the best

The Great Baldini

kdevitt

In one of my previous jobs, I caught my assistant surfing child porn. He quit rather rapidly. Turns out he'd been fired for his previous job for the same thing. Anyway - we had to get legal advice when he tried to use us as a reference. Advice was to say yes, this guy worked here from this date to that date, but we decline to give any further comment - solicitors said this is the same with all negative references, you just can't say anything negative at all. That said, saying you decline to give a reference is rather damaging to someones prospects.

I think you're right to wipe the job off the CV - could do more harm than its worth.

J-blk

kdevitt wrote:

In one of my previous jobs, I caught my assistant surfing child porn. He quit rather rapidly. Turns out he'd been fired for his previous job for the same thing. Anyway - we had to get legal advice when he tried to use us as a reference. Advice was to say yes, this guy worked here from this date to that date, but we decline to give any further comment - solicitors said this is the same with all negative references, you just can't say anything negative at all.

?!

Now that's quite the flipside of things - as an employer, that would have to be one of the ONLY cases were you should be able to give negative feedback... Still, I guess without proof, you would be in the same boat as we are in this case...

Interesting that the solicitors mentioned you couldn't give a negative reference even for grave misconduct like this. That would probably mean I may have a case against these guys, but the legal route is not one I want to take. It was a six month "filler" job anyway - I'm just quite annoyed where they have gone with things.

Having a reason for it (like it would be in your example) I get. These guys though have no good reason, other then being petty people it seems...

Great Baldini - I've PM'd you.

zervi2003

Do you not think it would be better and would have more closure on this unfortunate mess if your wife bit the bullet, went to the creche and asked why she got or who gave her the awful reference?

She has nothing to loose really seeing as you are already thinking of taking them off the CV as reference.

Nothing confrontive or anything, just "why the crappy reference?"

She may not want to do it, but its not a case of want but what she needs to do. She may feel more able to do things/come out of her shell more on things like this if she can see she can stand up for herself in cases like this.

I am not the most confrontive person either by any means, but if peace of mind ment id have to go to that creche and ask why, then i would.

DublinWriter

GaRtH_V wrote:

Take it to the small claims court

Forget that - they don't handle slander/libel cases.

They've basically got your missus over a barrel. Unless she has something on them that she can use to lean on them a little, there's nothing you can do except chalk it up and move on.

eth0_

kdevitt wrote:

In one of my previous jobs, I caught my assistant surfing child porn. He quit rather rapidly. Turns out he'd been fired for his previous job for the same thing.

As an aside...don't you have a legal responsibility as an employer to report that sort of thing to the police?

luckat

Maybe she should go and take one of the interview courses run by (I think) the Irish Times and Carr Communications? Interviews are a skill.

As for the negative reference, well, she's done badly in one place; now she needs to get another placement where she should request regular feedback and make sure there are no misunderstandings.