Call to invest in Knock airport

ishmael whale

I always hope that some day public debate on transport infrastructure will have something to do with what we need to do to make it easier for people and things to move about the country and beyond. But that day is still very much in the future.

In the course of his stream-of-consciousness argument, Jerry Crowley says that Knock Airport serves 13 counties. As we know, every Western seaboard county bar one has its own airport. Then we’ve Cork, Dublin and poor old Waterford in the rest of the country. Is Jerry seriously suggesting that Knock serves half the country, and the other seven airports serve the other half? If so, he seems to be advancing a position almost exactly at variance with reality.

The truth is more that Knock is not really well located, and only exists because of the willingness of Government to make nutty investments in the West. The West would probably be better off if it had one decent airport in Galway capable of taking jets, rather than every second county having one. But that assumes that airports have to do with transportation, instead of their more important role as an addition to a community’s totem ego.

The West would also be better off if they did something to limit the amount of one-off housing. But I suppose its easier to pretend its all about lack of State support.

Also, Jerry Crowley’s apparent view that the fact of Knock’s runway being longer than Cork illustrates neglect of the West is thought provoking, to say the least.

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=25740
Call to invest in Knock airport

…. Dr Jerry Cowley has told the Dáil….“Knock International Airport is Ireland's fourth international airport, serving up to 13 counties. ….”
….
“…Knock Airport has a longer runway than Cork Airport yet it has been the poor relation for Government investments,” added Dr Cowley.

dowlingm

The length of ORK's runway is symptomatic of what happens when you build an airport on top of a hill

murphaph

In reality Ireland's population needs just 1 decent airport. It's because our ground transportation is so sh!t that the perception is there that we need aiports in every 2-bit town.

Victor

ishmael whale wrote:

As we know, every Western seaboard county bar one has its own airport.

Is that a correct description for Leitrim?

Flukey

We do need to invest in these other airports, outside the big 3. We constantly hear of how Dublin is overcrowded. Instead of making it bigger we could have more services to those other airports and take the pressure off it that way. A lot of the people using Dublin would use somewhere like Knock as it is nearer to them, if the flights used it. Of course we don't need flights from the USA landing in every little airport in Ireland, like JFK ot Farranfore but there should be a better spread. Dublin and Shannon get loads, while Cork gets very few. It could get more and even if Knock is in an awkward position in terms of local terrain, it could certainly be upgraded to take some flights to serve the region. The great argument for the Shannon stopover was that it helps the whole south and west regions. Letting direct flights into Cork and Knock would then surely help it more. As part of regional development we do need to upgrade our airports and maybe one or two could serve the USA.

antoinolachtnai

Nope, airline business just doesn't work that way. If you spread the business between the airports, you will kill them all. Ireland's best route to building good international links is to become something of a hub between Europe and America. That way, the airports and routes will get 'through' traffic as well as local traffic. If we only have local traffic, we will never develop long-haul or even medium-haul routes in our own right.

Dublin Airport isn't really a big airport or a busy airport. A great deal of the congestion appears to be due to haphazard management, rather than real capacity issues.

murphaph

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Nope, airline business just doesn't work that way. If you spread the business between the airports, you will kill them all. Ireland's best route to building good international links is to become something of a hub between Europe and America. That way, the airports and routes will get 'through' traffic as well as local traffic. If we only have local traffic, we will never develop long-haul or even medium-haul routes in our own right.

Dublin Airport isn't really a big airport or a busy airport. A great deal of the congestion appears to be due to haphazard management, rather than real capacity issues.

Exactly. That guy David Learmount from Aviation Monthly or whatever that mag is called said Dublin could make an excellent hub between Europe and the US. I know of some people who already use AerLingus cheapo flights to get from Munich to Boston via Dublin-even with a long stopover because it's so cheap.

Thomond Pk

I totally agree the future for Irish aviation is not to continually subsidise airports just to eliminate the critical mass required by the bigger ones. The strategy taken at Vienna is very interesting where Austrian Airways has targetted the former soviet republics as a niche market and has grown a hub business on the back of being the most easterly airport of the EU 15 (Greece being too far South). Ireland being the most western of the EU 25 should be looking at developing Dublin in the same way.

But for gods sake put in a rail link, if one missed a connection at Dublin getting to and from the City Centre is a nightmare in the context of a 12 to 24 hour stay.

murphaph

Thomond Pk wrote:

But for gods sake put in a rail link, if one missed a connection at Dublin getting to and from the City Centre is a nightmare in the context of a 12 to 24 hour stay.

Of course this must be a priority. Dublin airport could be a very attractive overnight stopover because of the close proximity of the city in comparison with many of the existing hubs. People could easily layover in the city with a 20-30 min train journey from the city centre. Accomodation pricing would be very important though-too expensive and it's a no-go.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

Of course this must be a priority. Dublin airport could be a very attractive overnight stopover because of the close proximity of the city in comparison with many of the existing hubs. People could easily layover in the city with a 20-30 min train journey from the city centre. Accomodation pricing would be very important though-too expensive and it's a no-go.

Stay at / near the airport.

antoinolachtnai

Well, Singapore developed what is probably the biggest stopover business in the world without having a rail link to the city centre. There will be an expressway straight from Dublin airport to the city centre within a year anyway.

It has to be said that Dublin Airport can be a pretty chaotic place to transfer planes at. This is an issue in itself - it has to do with capacity, but it also has to do with organization and efficiency.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Stay at / near the airport.

I was pointing out that the city being so close might bring people to Dublin on overnight stopovers so they can see a bit of the city and not just from an aeroplane.

Thomond Pk

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There will be an expressway straight from Dublin airport to the city centre within a year anyway.

Which is of little benefit unless one were to hire a car and given Irish hire car charges this is not likely to be popular.

I agree on stopovers you do want to see the City and a one-night stopover is generally a good excuse to book a three or four day stopover. Airport hotels although convenient tend to be souless and expensive places.

antoinolachtnai

Well, you could take a taxi, a shared cab or a bus (which is what you would have to do if you were stopping over in Singapore). If you were unfamiliar with the city, you'd get to your hotel a lot faster that way than you would on the metro.

The Singapore model would be worth looking at. It's a veritable industry over there, and the hoteliers and airlines work hard to preserve it. The business appears to be very resistant to economic downturns.

(I remember going to bed about 11pm in a small hotel in Chinatown in Singapore about 3 years ago, and the guy in the next room was obviously there on a stopover, but was rather the worse for wear. That was putting it rather mildly. He was semi-comatose. But the duty manager went well beyond the call of duty to make sure that guy made his connection. From what I could hear, the duty manager basically carried him out to the lift. It was very impressive.)

Lennoxschips

The question is, do we want Dublin airport to be a European hub? The environment and the well being of the people in the Dublin area needs to be taken into account.

I say this as somebody who has lived near Schiphol for 10 years and has seen every government promise on noise and pollution regulations broken.

Esel

ishmael whale wrote:

..The truth is more that Knock ... only exists because of the willingness of Government to make nutty investments in the West. . . .

Silly me. I thought that Knock Airport came into existence as a result of Monsignor Horan's identification of the US need to have another B-52 refuelling station on this side of the Atlantic. Maybe the Ministry of Truth revisionists fell asleep on the job?

dmeehan

murphaph wrote:

Exactly. That guy David Learmount from Aviation Monthly or whatever that mag is called said Dublin could make an excellent hub between Europe and the US. I know of some people who already use AerLingus cheapo flights to get from Munich to Boston via Dublin-even with a long stopover because it's so cheap.

its also handy as you could do US Immigration in Dublin (or Shannon too)

dont royal jordanian use shannon as a stop-over? can thru-passengers avail of us immigartion in shannon?

murphaph

dmeehan wrote:

dont royal jordanian use shannon as a stop-over? can thru-passengers avail of us immigartion in shannon?

I was curious after I read that. Shannon airport don't mention Royal Jordanian at all. RJ's website has Shannon listed but no flights are returned when it's selected. Perhaps they stopped flying that route (new longer haul aircraft maybe?).

Victor

I think its a technical only stop - "wee wees" in Michael O'Leary's words.

I think the pre-immigration is only available to flights originating in Dublin or Shannon

dowlingm

Irish Govt would have to allow Royal J pick-up rights and EI would never allow that - Aeroflot tried it on some time back too.

Thomond Pk

The service offered to RJ is similar to that offered in Sri Lanka on Aisain long-haul or Bon Aire on South American long-haul, the planes arrive the passengers have 45 mins for a drink and it takes off again. I don't see a lot of benenfit in that type of business particularly with carbon taxes on the way.

These services are entirely different to offering connecting scheduled services where people can elect to have a stop-over if desired or may return if they like what they see from the air whilst connecting. While I wouldn't see this business as being huge it makes little sense for EI to offer so many different desinations from Dublin and a good scattering of directs to the US (Dallas & Miami being glaring ommissions) and then not developing a pricing regime to fill the empties on both sets of routes.


You would just not know which services would line up well time wise from destinations in both continents that have no direct services, IF the major European carriers can do this why not EI?

Victor

They could allow set down rights from Jordan and pick up rights from Shannon thought, seeing as the route doesn't have any competition.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

They could allow set down rights from Jordan and pick up rights from Shannon thought, seeing as the route doesn't have any competition.

I was thinking that too. There are quite a few business opportunities in the Middle East and connecting the Mid-West to the Mid-East might be very good for Limerick and environs.

dowlingm

Victor

I suspect Royal J just don't feel the investment in check-in etc. is worth it - also their turnaround time would be higher with onloading/offloading bags etc.

Thomond Pk

Thats where a company like servisair comes in, all you need is a tacky plastic sign and the third party ground and handling agent will do the rest

I've done stops that were turned around (Landing through take-off) in 50 minutes with disembarkation and embarkation of up to 30% of the passengers on an MD-11

dowlingm

fair enough ThomondP!

antoinolachtnai

I think it has to do with the 'freedoms' under the Chicago Convention that have been granted to RJ. Most of the world's skies aren't 'open' and even within Europe, it's only in recent years that arrangements like Ryanair's (where an Irish airline flies directly between points outside Ireland) have been possible..

Have a look at:

http://www.thaitechnics.com/freedom.html

Basically, I think that Jordan only has the first and second freedom in Ireland. They don't have the third and forth freedoms that would allow them to take on and disembark passengers. They almost certainly would do so if it were permitted.

This is all the result of arcane international negotiation, some of which may well take place at EU levels.

Occidental

The only Jordanian aircraft that stop in Shannon are freighters. The pax services stopped a few years ago when Jordanian got their hands on larger aircraft, which didn't require the refueling stop.

Jordanian did offer pax services to Amman when the flights were running, much the same as it was possible to fly to Lima, Havana, Santiago and Russia when Aeroflot were all the rage at Shannon in the 80's.