The hiring of women over men

ApeXaviour

This is mostly in regard to unskilled summer and part-time work and as such applies a lot to retail. But it is freakishly consistent.

After finishing exams I as many of my college friends have been frantically job-searching. All my female friends found jobs within a week, all but a few of my male friends are still jobless bums.

Take a couple I'm friendly with, both finished exams at similar times, both went job hunting with similar vigour, both equally qualified, applying for the same and different places. The first two days the girl gets 3 call backs. The fella is still looking..

Or another example: only a few minutes ago I rang about a job selling pretzels (I'm getting desperate) in the city centre that was advertised through our students union at 2pm today. I was blatantly told that it was more a job for women. I asked why (how the hell does sex have anything to do with selling pretzels!?). She told me she'd hired men in the past and that they "couldn't hack the rejection of people not wanting pretzels". wtf!?

So why is this? Why are women being chosen over men for these jobs? Why in our modern apparently equal society do we tolerate and accept such blatant discrimination.
It certainly makes me more accepting of old-boy networks and understand why they existed if this is the alternative..

Boston

Go to the super market, go the to check out counter, notice something. They will all be women at the check out. The odd time oyu might get a guy filling in for one of the girls. Businesses like to have women as the friendly face. Especially in retail.

WizZard

ApeXaviour wrote:

Or another example: only a few minutes ago I rang about a job selling pretzels (I'm getting desperate) in the city centre that was advertised through our students union at 2pm today. I was blatantly told that it was more a job for women. I asked why (how the hell does sex have anything to do with selling pretzels!?). She told me she'd hired men in the past and that they "couldn't hack the rejection of people not wanting pretzels". wtf!?

Isn't that just blatant discrimination??


On the flip-side, I have been involved in hiring people for bar/club work. It was mostly girls on the floor, because they were seen by the punters. They were generally good looking girls too. Go figure...

jhegarty

ApeXaviour wrote:

This is mostly in regard to unskilled summer and part-time work and as such applies a lot to retail. But it is freakishly consistent.

After finishing exams I as many of my college friends have been frantically job-searching. All my female friends found jobs within a week, all but a few of my male friends are still jobless bums.

Take a couple I'm friendly with, both finished exams at similar times, both went job hunting with similar vigour, both equally qualified, applying for the same and different places. The first two days the girl gets 3 call backs. The fella is still looking..

Or another example: only a few minutes ago I rang about a job selling pretzels (I'm getting desperate) in the city centre that was advertised through our students union at 2pm today. I was blatantly told that it was more a job for women. I asked why (how the hell does sex have anything to do with selling pretzels!?). She told me she'd hired men in the past and that they "couldn't hack the rejection of people not wanting pretzels". wtf!?

So why is this? Why are women being chosen over men for these jobs? Why in our modern apparently equal society do we tolerate and accept such blatant discrimination.
It certainly makes me more accepting of old-boy networks and understand why they existed if this is the alternative..

1) Buy tape recorder
2) Ask the question again while recording
3) Sue for millions
4) Never work again or at least make sure they don't have that policy anymore

monkeyfudge

ApeXaviour wrote:

Or another example: only a few minutes ago I rang about a job selling pretzels (I'm getting desperate) in the city centre that was advertised through our students union at 2pm today. I was blatantly told that it was more a job for women. I asked why (how the hell does sex have anything to do with selling pretzels!?). She told me she'd hired men in the past and that they "couldn't hack the rejection of people not wanting pretzels". wtf!?

ha. funny stuff. I wonder how these guys dealt with their pretzel sales rejections?

Personally I love those pretzel people... I don't care what the vendor keeps in their underpants... it's supposed to be about the pretzels... this has clearly been lost sight of.. I fear for the future of the mobile pretzel vending industry in this country.

monkeyfudge

jhegarty wrote:

1) Buy tape recorder
2) Ask the question again while recording
3) Sue for millions
4) Never work again or at least make sure they don't have that policy anymore

Yes. Those pretzel tycoons have deep pockets!

simu

Meh - I've been turned down from jobs because I "looked too weak" for which I read "am not a man". In my experience, getting screwed over whether because of your gender or some other factor is a regular feature of summer work and nixer-type jobs.

rofl At the pretzel breakdowns, though! Did they start throwing them at people or what?

leeroybrown

You see it happening in both directions. I'd say that women are more likely to be hired for retail work as a sizable portion of the retail sector is female-specific while a much smaller portion is male specific. A lot of gender non specific retail work is goes to women too as (in my view) men would be perceived as having less of a requirement for the opinion of someone of the same sex. Conversely, there are quite a few areas of work that are heavily biased towards men. It's part stereotype and part practicality.

damnyanks

Thing that gets me is the organizations to get women into specific sectors such as IT and engineering as they are in the miniority. However a area in which men are in the minority no such thing exists such as primary school teaching.

DublinWriter

WizZard wrote:

Isn't that just blatant discrimination??

Sure is. SUE! SUE! SUE!

A couple of years ago in my folks place, I found a stack of old Irish Times and Evening Press newspapers dating from around 1973. Looking at the job section was a real eye opener, one of the ads looking for a secretary started with the opening line "Attractive young woman wanted...".

Most of the positions speficied gender and age requirements. The jobs in the 'Computers' section were a real hoot too.

I somehow felt the need to keep the papers in case I ever had to repeat this story and wasn't believed!

vibe666

just a fact of life. some people prefer women in certain jobs, while others prefer me.

sit comfortable in the knowledge that a few years down the line it will be the other way round for you!

especially in IT.

WhiteWashMan

ApeXaviour wrote:

This is mostly in regard to unskilled summer and part-time work and as such applies a lot to retail. But it is freakishly consistent.

After finishing exams I as many of my college friends have been frantically job-searching. All my female friends found jobs within a week, all but a few of my male friends are still jobless bums.

Take a couple I'm friendly with, both finished exams at similar times, both went job hunting with similar vigour, both equally qualified, applying for the same and different places. The first two days the girl gets 3 call backs. The fella is still looking..

Or another example: only a few minutes ago I rang about a job selling pretzels (I'm getting desperate) in the city centre that was advertised through our students union at 2pm today. I was blatantly told that it was more a job for women. I asked why (how the hell does sex have anything to do with selling pretzels!?). She told me she'd hired men in the past and that they "couldn't hack the rejection of people not wanting pretzels". wtf!?

So why is this? Why are women being chosen over men for these jobs? Why in our modern apparently equal society do we tolerate and accept such blatant discrimination.
It certainly makes me more accepting of old-boy networks and understand why they existed if this is the alternative..

i think the day that women are paid as much as men, are hired on the same conditions as men, and are treated with the same amount of respect in every work environment, then, and only then, can men take a high moral ground on an issue that is really pretty minor such as this.

thats not to say i think its not importantto you, or that it isnt fair. but thats life unfortunately. take it, learn it, live with it and move on.

by the way, at what point if all things being equal do you feel that someone else should get a job?

damnyanks

WhiteWashMan wrote:

by the way, at what point if all things being equal do you feel that someone else should get a job?

Whoever would best fit in to the company personalty wise. I had an interview like that this year was surprised when I asked a question and tht was pretty much the answer I got.

And it was against a girl :eek:
They offered me the job, but both interviewers were male perhaps things would of been different if they were both female.

WhiteWashMan

damnyanks wrote:

Whoever would best fit in to the company personalty wise. .

and thats a great answer.

i see on here, and i hear about people who say they have this qualification, have more experience and are better 'suited' to the position.

but really, id rather hire someone that i think is going to work well, is going to be dedicated, and is willing to put in the extra mile, and is going to fit in with the team, and is going to be a team player.

but how do you say that to someone who is convinced they are the better fit for a job?
well, apart from saying, 'i think theyve got a better work ethic and attitude, they appear to fit well with the team, and shes got nicer breasts....'

i think people are getting to hung up on the gender issue these days. and i dont think its that impotant (of course, many people will disagree with me) but i will say that i do think there are places where a woman is better to do something, and there are places where a man is better to do something.

i went to Oman a few years ago on business. my colleague did not go. shes a woman. women do not do business in middle eastern countries. thats just the way it is!
on the other hand, i know a woman who is very successful in several oil and gas accounts because she wears high heels, has great legs, shows off cleavage and is nice, and always buys a round. shes not hard nosed. she not agressive. she just uses her assets to her advantage. hell, if i could find several business ladies who like broad shouldered, hairy chested handsome witty men, id be on easy street myself

WizZard

WhiteWashMan wrote:

hell, if i could find several business ladies who like broad shouldered, hairy chested handsome witty men, id be on easy street myself

PM me when you find them please

cuckoo

LiouVille wrote:

Go to the super market, go the to check out counter, notice something. They will all be women at the check out. The odd time oyu might get a guy filling in for one of the girls. Businesses like to have women as the friendly face. Especially in retail.

In the same supermarket have a look at the senior management. They'll be men. The odd time you might get a woman, but she'll more likely than not be in HR.

RicardoSmith

damnyanks wrote:

Thing that gets me is the organizations to get women into specific sectors such as IT and engineering as they are in the miniority. However a area in which men are in the minority no such thing exists such as primary school teaching.

Consider then that in the large IT company I used to work for 60%-70% of managers, project leaders were women. Of course the MD was a woman but that obviously had no bearing on it. :rolleyes: I reckon that at least half of my managers and bosses over the years in IT were woman. Some were fine but the majority weren't. Thats just been my experience.

the_syco

Hehe. I wonder where you the type calling me and a few others "old fashoned sexist bas7ards" when we preached about this a while back. Get used to it mate, in business, car insurance, jobs, etc.

leeroybrown wrote:

Conversely, there are quite a few areas of work that are heavily biased towards men. It's part stereotype and part practicality.

Oh, you mean like lifting big heavy objects? Sure some women can, but you mainly see the lads lifting the heavy stuff.

damnyanks wrote:

However a area in which men are in the minority no such thing exists such as primary school teaching.

Actually, this has been noticed, but they've yet to find a way to encourage them to join up. it used to be 2 or 3 out of every 5, not its one man to every five women going to the teacher sector. They reckon in a decade or so, when all the "old school" teachers retire, there'll be a severe lack of males teaching.

=-=

There's a program stating in the UK to get girls (age 12 to 15) to "stay interested" in computers, as there are so few interested in it. A job I went to in January, in East Point Business Park, the joke was "will one of ye dress up as a woman?", as there were so few women there!

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i think the day that women are paid as much as men, are hired on the same conditions as men, and are treated with the same amount of respect in every work environment, then, and only then, can men take a high moral ground on an issue that is really pretty minor such as this.

Will never happen. Reasons: women get preggers(materinty leave), most women won't want to do overtime, and prefer "family friendly hours", etc (you need to do the time to get promoted in some business's).

Whoever would best fit in to the company personalty wise.

By law, there must be a certain percent of women employed. There's no law to say that a certain percent has to be men, tho.

damnyanks

the_syco wrote:

By law, there must be a certain percent of women employed. There's no law to say that a certain percent has to be men, tho.

See thats the kind of stuff that annoys me

But then again it's probably correct, after all men that want to work in industries that women usually go into are normally rapists, paedophiles or general odd balls :rolleyes:

the_syco

damnyanks wrote:

But then again it's probably correct, after all men that want to work in industries that women usually go into are normally rapists, paedophiles or general odd balls :rolleyes:

Aye, never really see many male nurses, male teachers, male receptionists...

Magenta

DublinWriter wrote:

Sure is. SUE! SUE! SUE!

A couple of years ago in my folks place, I found a stack of old Irish Times and Evening Press newspapers dating from around 1973. Looking at the job section was a real eye opener, one of the ads looking for a secretary started with the opening line "Attractive young woman wanted...".

Most of the positions speficied gender and age requirements. The jobs in the 'Computers' section were a real hoot too.

Post some of them up, pretty please!

luckat

Bastards, bastards - they won't hire men for those low-paid jobs **sob**

ApeXaviour

luckat wrote:

Bastards, bastards - they won't hire men for those low-paid jobs **sob**

(I take it you are being sarcastic)
This attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. There is a complete lack of sympathy and realisation on society's part to this. You just mock it, is still discrimination. Discrimination does not change its meaning because of the past.

WWM wrote:

i think the day that women are paid as much as men, are hired on the same conditions as men, and are treated with the same amount of respect in every work environment, then, and only then, can men take a high moral ground

I disagree. The age of women being practically discriminated in the work place is over for all but a handful of 60y/o old-boys. Women, for all realistic intents and purposes, are hired on the same conditions as men imho. Should there be an incident that they not be, there are means of punishing the employer. Now I'm young, my mother is in a much more executive position than my father, so maybe I can be quicker to forget the past. But we don't live there. The sins of the fathers are not the sins of the sons.

Your attitude is typical tbh, we find it difficult to sympathise with men over women, it's human nature, especially given the inequality of the past. It's the way we bring up our boys, it's our attitude towards men nomatter how pc we tell ourselves we are.

Granted, women tend not to hold as high positions as their male collegues. However it is wholly inaccurate to use this as an example of discrimination in our society. It shows ignorance of people's choice being the deciding factor. Women choose not to take higher positions in work, or work less hours or choose to take extended leave and thus miss out on promotion opportunities. Like it, lump it, agree or disagree it is their choice at the end of the day. Take politics as an easily verifiable example. I think we can agree that when it comes to voting, sexism is in no way apparent. Yet, afaik we have the lowest percentage women td's (~13% iirc) in the EU! Why? Simply women less often choose to pursue careers in the busy political arena.

In my opinion the scales have balanced and now tipped over to men's sex being held against them more than women. The reason being that we don't pay enough attention to it. Car insurance, family matters, education and more and more now with jobs..

WWM wrote:

thats not to say i think its not importantto you, or that it isnt fair. but thats life unfortunately. take it, learn it, live with it and move on.

Life is not fair. That does not preclude me from trying to point society's double standards. Ones which IMHO aren't recognised enough..

Ri_Nollaig

ApeXaviour wrote:

Car insurance, family matters, education and more and more now with jobs..

its abit of a joke alright.
esp when you see these ads "insurance company just for women!" wtf! if they did just for men would it be allowed?
it is funny how sexism and racism too cant be turned the other way

nesf

There are inherent difference between the sexs. Your average woman and man are very different.

Think in terms of jobs that require a lot of manual handling and strenght/toughness related issues for men. Think of jobs that need a high level of empathy, caring or people skills for women.

It's just that these steriotypes don't apply well to every individual. It doesn't invalidate them working well for big generalised groups.

Personally I wouldn't take someone saying to a woman that she's too weak/delicate for the job as sexist. It probably is true. It's a case of a person not being suitable for a job and the person looking for an reason other than who they are for an excuse to blame.

It's no different to gym turning me down because of my physical shape. Sure I have a solid knowledge of the topic but I mightn't fit into the role they have in mind.

It's got nothing to do with me, but everything to do with what they want.

Employers have to discriminate. How else are they going to have good employees?

The problem arrises when they discriminate "unfairly". But as far as I'm concerned they have a right to employ who they wish for their own reasons. I'm not entitled to a job. They also aren't entitled to me working for them.

luckat

I just don't think it's true that employers generally prefer to hire women.

A lot of the time, what happens in jobs is that employers get staff through recommendations from other trusted staff - "Know anyone to do a few shifts? S/he good? OK, we'll give him/her a try."

Because of the nature of society, mostly this is going to mean hiring female pals of females or male pals of males.

This isn't scientific, of course, just my own opinion, which comes from my own experience. Mind you, I've got work through both male and female friends in later years, though in earlier years it tended to be more through same-sex friends.

In terms of "women have an equal crack of the whip nowadays", unfortunately the figures don't support this view. Women are over-represented in low-paid work and under-represented in high-paid work. The number of senior executives in major companies that are women is very low.

Partly, this is because men don't want to mind their children and women do, so men gain advancement in the child-rearing years. Partly it's sexism.