the state of the toilets in TCD

snorlax

disgusting! only two toilets for the entire pav (and one of them with a broken lid).

and the state of the toilets in the lecky...

and all the tourists in the arts block ones (right up to exam time, queues of at least 10mins!)....


james has the best toilets, im sure of it!

Kevin_rc_ie

i don't think they're that bad. the ones in the hamilton are fine and my secret favourite toilets elsewhere in the colleger are really nice but i'm not telling you where they are.

the ones in the pav are diabolical.

snorlax

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

i don't think they're that bad. the ones in the hamilton are fine and my secret favourite toilets elsewhere in the colleger are really nice but i'm not telling you where they are.

the ones in the pav are diabolical.

the ones in the GMB?

Kevin_rc_ie

no. are they nice? i don't think i've ever been down there.

Nietzschean

probally referring to toilets in maths dep/SNIAM or the loyd building... all usually quiet + clean

Kevin_rc_ie

stupid bobo spoiling my fun again. damn you. damn you bobo.

Nietzschean

doesn't matter kev, doubt she's down our end much so she can survive on the dodgey dirty toilets in the arts block...

(also interestingly ye wouldn't be able to use the SNIAM/Loyd ones at night as both buildings close quite early --- 5pm i believe)

Kevin_rc_ie

yeah they do. i'm going to find the code for the door to the training rooms under the pav. it's better than treking to the hamilton to take a p1ss when there's a queue of lots of people in the pav.

also, some minging girls were peeing over at the chemistry building. that was just disgusting.

cuckoo

SNIAM toilets are great. As you go up the floors in the Arts Block the toilets get better, but the ground floor ones are horrific. Maths dept ok, but i sometimes get lost around there. Museum building are really old school. Goldsmith, beside the JCR, have a ridiculous abundance of them, and they're usually clean. AAP ground floor womens usually have these weird signs up saying 'come on girls, let's keep this place clean', with little stickers of animals on them - wtf? the ones on the ground floor of the Beckett theatre are nasty.

Sev

It's not the first time we've had interesting discussion about toilets on this forum.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1994134#post1994134

Nietzschean

quite true, but there is only a limited number of topic's in trinity so i guess we have to go around in circles a bit...............

DrIndy

This just proves my point about how important a role the Libraries and Lavatories position was within the students union. Bring it back I say!

cuckoo

DrIndy wrote:

This just proves my point about how important a role the Libraries and Lavatories position was within the students union. Bring it back I say!

indy, this isn't tcdsu.org.....

cuckoo

cuckoo wrote:

indy, this isn't tcdsu.org.....

My thoughts too.

Oh and I like the toilets in the East End - it might be the double mirrors that catch my attention (sees shiny object and follows)

snorlax

maybe the title should be renamed hygiene technical consultant or bog reporter?!

what i can't believe is that they spent half a million doing up the pav, it's still inaccessible to the 40+ wheelchair users in college and the toilets are still bockedy. the only thing that is changed is a conversion of the interior to a tacky q-bar mirror image. who on earth decides how the money is going to be spent and why dosn't the su do more to help improve the toilet/ inaccesiiblity suituation? exclusion of a minority isn't an option because it's simply more convienient for those who dont suffer from a physical disablity and therefore don't have to worry about the burden of social exclusion from a main center of student life.

http://su.netsoc.tcd.ie/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=997#pid13265

The question of "Why didn't/doesn't the SU do anything" is asked and answered above.

Edit: Ross (Officer for Students with Disabilities) as well as Daithí have worked very hard on the Pav issue this year.

snorlax

i dosnt really answer that many questions Myth, and besides i don't know if i could trust everything i read on an su censured website.

snorlax

snorlax wrote:

i dosnt really answer that many questions Myth, and besides i don't know if i could trust everything i read on an su censured website.

It does answer the question of whether the SU participated actively in those meetings, and whether it recognised the importance of making the Pav accessible. It also mentions about links/articles in TN and UR about the issue, and gives information about it.

And I still find any cries of censorship funny. Snorlax, you posted lots of statistics online recently about hunting, why should I trust them?

Nietzschean

Emmm about the pav, its a business at the end of the day thats supposed to supply dosh for ducac...and well its not economical to even attempt to change a listed building to put in wheelchair access.

I would have assumed that all computer labs and sections of the academic parts of the college should be higher up the list....

snorlax

i got all of my stats them from statistical databases that we use in college and they are all peer reviewed as it routes out any dodgy articles.(pysch-info etc and the works, which i already have some practical experience in as part of my college work and probably why i used them more readily)

regarding censorship, if you wer'e head of goverment and controlled a media outlet you wouldnt appreciate / and probably would try and prevent people posting evidence that pointed to an incompetence on your part. its not good pr if "it looks" like your doing a bad job. full impartiallity is hard to come by if its controlled by an organisation with a vested interest. did you not notice how the articles in the TN ran alittle contrary to those of the record as regards accessiblity of the pav?

cuckoo

Darth Bobo wrote:

I would have assumed that all computer labs and sections of the academic parts of the college should be higher up the list....

exactamondo. botany building, for example...

and, let's not hold college accountable for anything, sure it's loads more fun to just blame the SU. (yup, i've been involved in the SU, but that has meant that i've seen how hard the full time officers work)

do you remember the bad weather during october 2004? the union did nothing about it, it's their fault i got soaked walking through front square that day.

Time Magazine

I completely agree. I'm sure this falls under the auspices of welfare and so Luke should be in there scrubbing until he hands the reins over to our new welfare officer, who should also get her gloves ready.

snorlax

im not blaming them cuckoo i just see the interests of a minority body of students being overlooked by an establishment that dosnt seem to want to serve the student population. also rain (uncontrollable environment) could hardly be considered the same as a decision made by a group of humans ( controllable), also i am aware that DUCAC are primarily responsible for the pav.

Nietzschean

snorlax wrote:

im not blaming them cuckoo i just see the interests of a minority body of students being overlooked by an establishment that dosnt seem to want to serve the student population. also rain (uncontrollable environment) could hardly be considered the same as a decision made by a group of humans ( controllable), also i am aware that DUCAC are primarily responsible for the pav.

Erm...their interests? no i imagine limited resources, theirs are just balanced against the majority.... there lots that is done for them, everything can't be....

This whole issue with the pav has been discussed time and again..

snorlax

well if you were disabled simple things like not being able to go to the pub with your friends might effect you a lot worse then having to use a different entrance then the majority student population/ or toilets that are too small too allow maunevering and transfers etc. you'd actually be supprised at what some people value, being young a social life is often a vital neccesity to ensure positive mental wellbeing (eg the pav).

i know they have limited resources but even the majority of the student population was overlooked when they failed to sort out the toilets. i wonder how much they spent on that flat screen tv? and perphaps downstairs toilet(s) might have been a solution.

Nietzschean

snorlax wrote:

well if you were disabled simple things like not being able to go to the pub with your friends might effect you a lot worse then having to use a different entrance

Different entrance? there is plenty of places they just can't get to. So yeah i think its much much more important that they can get to where they have classes than into a pub.

then the majority student population/ or toilets that are too small too allow maunevering and transfers etc.

we all have to put up with the crap toilets, its just a feature of old buildings, there is such a thing as going too far to make them fit in imo.

you'd actually be supprised at what some people value, being young a social life is often a vital neccesity to ensure positive mental wellbeing (eg the pav).

Em so you'd have them spend probally 1 - 2 million over 40 people who may have no intention of ever going to the pav? And thats economically viable in what universe?

i know they have limited resources but even the majority of the student population was overlooked when they failed to sort out the toilets. i wonder how much they spent on that flat screen tv? and perphaps downstairs toilet(s) might have been a solution.

Em the flatscreen tv is a requirement, its a business as i've said, and a big section of their 'punters' are sports fans, so keeping them happy outweighs much else.

As for downstairs, its a changing room for matches, would you have them kicked out?

snorlax

Different entrance? there is plenty of places they just can't get to. So yeah i think its much much more important that they can get to where they have classes than into a pub.

actually some of them can't get to their classes, try the speech language/ building. one of the lifts in james opens outside a vending machine so couldnt fit a wheelchair beyond there. also yo can't close the door of "the disabled toilets in james" how do i know? i had to spend 4 hours in a wheelchair and find out just how accessible our campus is

we all have to put up with the crap toilets, its just a feature of old buildings, there is such a thing as going too far to make them fit in imo.

there's legislation that all public buildings have to be accessibly to wheelchairs (called the disablity acts), is horrible being stuck in a wheelchair why make it any worse imo?

Em so you'd have them spend probally 1 - 2 million over 40 people who may have no intention of ever going to the pav? And thats economically viable in what universe?

would cost less then 30,000 if they used the toilet downstairs the only reason it was rejected was becuse ducac wanted to go for the expensive lift option and didnt want to give up their room. do i think ducac givng up one room to enable 40 potential wheelchair users a worthy expenditure of resources and equipment? yes if it enables people who are excluded to fully enjoy the social resources of the college.

m the flatscreen tv is a requirement, its a business as i've said, and a big section of their 'punters' are sports fans, so keeping them happy outweighs much else.

As for downstairs, its a changing room for matches, would you have them kicked out?

im not kicking out the whole team, just one room!

flatscreens probably cost 5 grand could have saved half of that if theyd gone for a cheaper less excessive model. there's plenty of room for changing and if facilities are already dire for changing well that should be sorted out anyway and not let the disabled students suffer as a result of negligence on allocation of resources.

snorlax

hey Bobo bear in mind if you decide to answer this i have spent two years working with trying to impove disabled poeple's quality of life so if i don't think like a business man, thats becuse im not, im an OT. and as such its part of job to be an avocate for disabled people's rights!

Nietzschean

snorlax wrote:

actually some of them can't get to their classes, try the speech language/ building. one of the lifts in james opens outside a vending machine so couldnt fit a wheelchair beyond there. also yo can't close the door of "the disabled toilets in james" how do i know? i had to spend 4 hours in a wheelchair and find out just how accessible our campus is

I do believe thats what i said, that education facilities should be prioritised over leasure ones...

there's legislation that all public buildings have to be accessibly to wheelchairs (called the disablity acts), is horrible being stuck in a wheelchair why make it any worse imo?

I'm not debating its horrible, but at the end of the day they are in a massive minority and the government going out of there way to try be inclusive with old buildings being changed just gets silly. Its terrible they are stuck in a wheel chair, but like thats life, we can't rebuild every building in the country so they can get into it.

would cost less then 30,000 if they used the toilet downstairs the only reason it was rejected was becuse ducac wanted to go for the expensive lift option and didnt want to give up their room. do i think ducac givng up one room to enable 40 potential wheelchair users a worthy expenditure of resources and equipment? yes if it enables people who are excluded to fully enjoy the social resources of the college.

Em, firstly are you even sure that the doors downstairs can take a wheelchair? increasing door size mightn't be possible.

And ducac has limited space on campus which is shared amongst several clubs, to put the facilities ur proposing in down there would probally mean losing one of the dressing rooms, and well you need 2 for opposing teams......... its just not viable. And for a toilet, sure these days most of us head back to the hamilton to goto the toilet anyway which does have disabled facilities.

im not kicking out the whole team, just one room!

Thats effectively what your doing

flatscreens probably cost 5 grand could have saved half of that if theyd gone for a cheaper less excessive model. there's plenty of room for changing and if facilities are already dire for changing well that should be sorted out anyway and not let the disabled students suffer as a result of negligence on allocation of resources.

Er your missing the point, its a business, for half that price they would end up with smaller poor quality screens which would die faster and also being smaller would be less likely to attract in customers. What your suggesting should be taken out of a completely different set of funds as 'spending money to make money' cause none of your suggestions will make the pav money, and as such must be classed seperately as such.

cuckoo

Darth Bobo wrote:

I'm not debating its horrible, but at the end of the day they are in a massive minority and the government going out of there way to try be inclusive with old buildings being changed just gets silly. Its terrible they are stuck in a wheel chair, but like thats life, we can't rebuild every building in the country so they can get into it.
.

Asfaik, a lot of the legislation in terms of universal accessibility only applies to new builds. I think the Pav really isn't that important in the grand scheme of the universe, it's just an awkwardly built bar that can buy as many flat screen tvs as they like. I with Bobo in thinking it's more of a concern that academic offices, lecture theatres and student services (eg student counselling) are inaccessible.

However, i do think that if the 'government' (who they? oh, right, the ppl we elected) aren't going to make huge efforts to have accessible state buildings and public buildings (eg national museum) that are supported by the tax we all pay, then people with disablitilies should be able to opt out of the tax system.

Thinking of people with disabilities as the 'tiny minority' and 'them in the wheelchairs' is a little patronising in that we're distancing ourselves from a facet of human reality that may apply to any of us at any time in the future. And, the public face of disabililty for many may be a wheelchair, but there are hundreds of students registered with the college disability service (and who knows how many more that aren't) and if there is money to be spent in this area i think it should be focused on the academic side of the Trinity Experience.

I'd love to see compulsory training for all teaching staff about learning disabilities, mental illness and everything else. Not guidelines emailed to them, but hours of sitting in a lecture theatre. Snorlax sat in a wheelchair to learn about wheelchair users perspective, i'd like to see lecturers listening to garbled tape recordings to know what it's like for students with impaired hearing, looking at sheets of handouts that have been altered to try and give an idea of what someone with dyslexia might see and squiddly equations on overheads so they get an idea of what it's like to not have perfect vision.

The College Disability Service does do great work, but a lot of the teaching staff have an unconscious attitude of 'oh, you've a disability? well, go register with them and they'll sort it out, nothing to do with me...'

snorlax

Darth Bobo wrote:

I do believe thats what i said, that education facilities should be prioritised over leasure ones...

the pav is just one example of an inaccessible building on campus whereby beauracray dictated the legislation. is trinity not for the students? is trinity just one big business who dosnt take its student population into account?

I'm not debating its horrible, but at the end of the day they are in a massive minority and the government going out of there way to try be inclusive with old buildings being changed just gets silly. Its terrible they are stuck in a wheel chair, but like thats life, we can't rebuild every building in the country so they can get into it.

but you keep saying what we can't do. thats because your probably not that interested in their welfare as you don't know of any wheelchair users on a personal basis and aren't disabled yourself so cant put yourself in their shoes as quickly as i can.
sure you cant make all the buses wheelchair friendly...it costs to much money the goverment dosnt have enough resources and enjoys flittering money away on excessive purchases (aka the millions spent on electronic voting!).

it's the atttitude of apathy and people not caring that disabled people must fight against in getting proper legislation from the goverment and authorities.

another minority on campus believe it or not is the male population (38%-62% roughly i believe) so should we convert one of the pav toilets to suit the majority female population?!

massive minority

not necessarily. try spraining your ankle and attempting getting up those steps, try not cracking your head off those steps when your excessively drunk. a broken arm, sprained wrist!? forget about using the heavy glass doors in the bathroom. so therefore disablity affects nearly everyone at some stage and should not be brushed aside as irrelevant because it dosnt affect you personally. alcohol disables people's cognitive way of thinking (memory etc...!) and also compromises the cerebellum ( gait/ walking patterns/ coordination/ balance) so in a way almost every person has experienced something that hampered their ability to preform functionally, either thru self induced drunkeness or an actual break or fall etc.

Em, firstly are you even sure that the doors downstairs can take a wheelchair? increasing door size mightn't be possible.

where there's a will there's a way and the disability act does cover all the public buildings people use,and why does it bother making buildings/ buses accessible if they are minority? because exclusion prevents independence and enjoyment of life to the full. but sure why bother worrying about it if im not disabled? maybe your not disabled permanently at present, but most geriatrics suffer some form of physical disability and most boards members will become geriatric in time and will be the same people who will be cribbing at the their local shop/ publicans (which they cant access due to steps) and can't visit to do their weekily shopping or meet their daughter for a pint/ lunch chat. im myself am meeting the elderly who feel cut off and isolated from their local community due to their imobility. i don't believe leaving our most vunerable people to fend for themselves is an option, whether old or not .

and yes the ablility to partake in leisure is highly correlated with postitve mental wellbeing, if you wer'e isolated from your friends and couldnt go out with them to the pub you;d be fairely annoyed at the bureacracy and lack of foresight of the managers in relation to including wheelchair users.

schizphrenia ireland found that those who had a good peer support network and wer'e integrated into the community, adjusted better to their mental illness then those who who had neither.

Em, firstly are you even sure that the doors downstairs can take a wheelchair? increasing door size mightn't be possible.

And ducac has limited space on campus which is shared amongst several clubs, to put the facilities ur proposing in down there would probally mean losing one of the dressing rooms, and well you need 2 for opposing teams......... its just not viable. And for a toilet, sure these days most of us head back to the hamilton to goto the toilet anyway which does have disabled facilities.

you can get 15-20,000euro for a disability grant to re-do a premises from the county council, perphaps that could be used?

Thats effectively what your doing

provide a prefab/ carvan if neccesary. im taking one room not the whole downstairs.

Er your missing the point, its a business, for half that price they would end up with smaller poor quality screens which would die faster and also being smaller would be less likely to attract in customers. What your suggesting should be taken out of a completely different set of funds as 'spending money to make money' cause none of your suggestions will make the pav money, and as such must be classed seperately as such.

you could buy the same quality screen but a smaller version, how many people watch that tv? the minority male population that are involved in sport, i haven't noticed to many people looking at it myself, and most of the female poulation queuing for the toilets last friday wanted to flog it on the blackmarket to help pay for decent toilets and avoid having to pee near the chemistry buliding. doyles can surive without a massive tv domineering the whole room, why cant we? and they seem to do a good buisness.....

again is trinity for the students or is it just another captitalist mini-take all we can get society?!

on another point the new therapy centre in james has toilets where the door cannot be closed and one of the lifts dosnt allow wheelchair use, is it not ironic that the centre for disablity studies, aka the school of occupational therapy is inaccessible (and yes the oversized chairs make it next to impoosible to use the cantten, and the counters for serving are chest high and therefor imppossible to reach) sure, who cares if you cant buy food, end up suffering from incontinence and need to be carried up the stairs.
another ironic thing is that the trinity centre in james is brand new and the OT's in the school wer'e never consulted over environmental adaptions, funny don;'t you think? they mustn't have cared too much about the welfare of the disabled when they failed to consult the experts in the field and overlooked a few massive problems.
so therefore its not just the problem of old buildings, it;s new ones too! unfortunetly its apathy and attudinal change that ots and disabled people must face and fight around the country to implement change. ignornace is not an option its a choice.

Nietzschean

snorlax wrote:

the pav is just one example of an inaccessible building on campus whereby beauracray dictated the legislation. is trinity not for the students? is trinity just one big business who dosnt take its student population into account?

Em, This is quite entertaining, more because I didn't see you at the ducac AGM demaning change now did i? ... So complaining without doing much is a bit pointless no?

but you keep saying what we can't do. thats because your probably not that interested in their welfare as you don't know of any wheelchair users on a personal basis and aren't disabled yourself so cant put yourself in their shoes as quickly as i can.

What they can do is goto a different pub, if you had your way the long library would probally be ripped out for not being wheelchair accessable. Like i said there is a limit, if their m8's were half decent they would just goto the buttery or another pub where they can get in.

sure you cant make all the buses wheelchair friendly...it costs to much money the goverment dosnt have enough resources and enjoys flittering money away on excessive purchases (aka the millions spent on electronic voting!).

Erm, electronic voting in the long run should provide a system that is much harder to tamper with and much more efficent and relyable than human voting. So its not flittering it away, the conterversay has been over its relyability in its current form, dodgey software or something.

it's the atttitude of apathy and people not caring that disabled people must fight against in getting proper legislation from the goverment and authorities.

Proper legislation? you have the disability act, what would you like now?

another minority on campus believe it or not is the male population (38%-62% roughly i believe) so should we convert one of the pav toilets to suit the majority female population?!

Actually i'd be very surprised if you didn't find that males were the majority patron's of the pav. And if you look at toilet facilities throughout the college female ones are usually superior, though that can be extened elsewhere also.

not necessarily. try spraining your ankle and attempting getting up those steps, try not cracking your head off those steps when your excessively drunk. a broken arm, sprained wrist!? forget about using the heavy glass doors in the bathroom. so therefore disablity affects nearly everyone at some stage and should not be brushed aside as irrelevant because it dosnt affect you personally. alcohol disables people's cognitive way of thinking (memory etc...!) and also compromises the cerebellum ( gait/ walking patterns/ coordination/ balance) so in a way almost every person has experienced something that hampered their ability to preform functionally, either thru self induced drunkeness or an actual break or fall etc.

I ain't doubting that i can become disabled at any time, i just think its lunacy to destroy a building like the pav to accomidate a few people, its an old listed building. Sure make ones where it makes sence accessable and new buildings, but something old like the pav should just be left alone.

where there's a will there's a way

Yeah its called the buttery, another student bar on campus that is wheelchair accessable

and the disability act does cover all the public buildings people use,and why does it bother making buildings/ buses accessible if they are minority? because exclusion prevents independence and enjoyment of life to the full.

I ain't debating exclusion isn't nice for them, but at the end of the day you can't keep pouring money down the endless drain of integration of everyone, if i break both my arms should a staff member in the pav be forced to feed me? ... i might feel excluded otherwise.

but sure why bother worrying about it if im not disabled? maybe your not disabled permanently at present, but most geriatrics suffer some form of physical disability and most boards members will become geriatric in time and will be the same people who will be cribbing at the their local shop/ publicans (which they cant access due to steps) and can't visit to do their weekily shopping or meet their daughter for a pint/ lunch chat. im myself am meeting the elderly who feel cut off and isolated from their local community due to their imobility. i don't believe leaving our most vunerable people to fend for themselves is an option, whether old or not .

And how is this different than ur previous arguement about injury/being pissed?
And as for the eldery, if they are meeting their daughter its not too much for her to choose a pub where they have easy access. The elderly tend to deteriate so any changes to acessability would probally only be a stopgap.

and yes the ablility to partake in leisure is highly correlated with postitve mental wellbeing, if you wer'e isolated from your friends and couldnt go out with them to the pub you;d be fairely annoyed at the bureacracy and lack of foresight of the managers in relation to including wheelchair users.

foresight of the managers? what now? to a manager one customer is not worth spending 3 million on yer pub which will provide u with no revenue gain.

schizphrenia ireland found that those who had a good peer support network and wer'e integrated into the community, adjusted betters to their mental illness then those who who had neither.

you do go around and around with the same arguements a bit

you can get 15-20,000euro for a disability grant to re-do a premises from the county council, perphaps that could be used?

20,000 euro wouldn't do anything to the pav, see previous threads regarding this matter.

provide a prefab/ carvan if neccesary. im taking one room not the whole downstairs.

Have u been downstairs? its not that big, and a carvan/prefab for the changing rooms? these pav is an age old place for rugby and cricket teams, let them cross the road to use a toilet.

you could buy the same quality screen but a smaller version, how many people watch that tv? the minority male population that are involved in sport, i haven't noticed to many people looking at it myself, and most of the female poulation queuing for the toilets last friday wanted to flog it on the blackmarket to help pay for decent toilets and avoid having to pee near the chemistry buliding. doyles can surive without a massive tv domineering the whole room, why cant we? and they seem to do a good buisness.....

Erm, TV is popular during the winter months, not summer.

And doyles arn't a sports bar, it also has a late licence and takes in alot more clientel that arn't students. Also you might want to note that doyles is not accessable very well at all at all.....

again is trinity for the students or is it just another captitalist mini-take all we can get society?!

Yet again, did i see you at the AGM? you can't complain if you didn't have your say.

on another point the new therapy centre in james has toilets where the door cannot be closed and one of the lifts dosnt allow wheelchair use, is it not ironic that the centre for disablity studies, aka the school of occupational therapy is inaccessible (and yes the oversized chairs make it next to impoosible to use the cantten, and the counters for serving are chest high and therefor imppossible to reach) sure, who cares if you cant buy food, end up suffering from incontinence and need to be carried up the stairs.
another ironic thing is that the trinity centre in james is brand new and the OT's in the school wer'e never consulted over environmental adaptions, funny don;'t you think? they mustn't have cared too much about the welfare of the disabled when they failed to consult the experts in the field and overlooked a few massive problems.

I don't know the in's and outs of that project so i can't comment.

so therefore its not just the problem of old buildings, it;s new ones too! unfortunetly its apathy and attudinal change that ots and disabled people must face and fight around the country to implement change. ignornace is not an option its a choice.

Your suggesting i'm ignorant? i'm aware of what they require, and a certain ammount they should get but if you got ur way it would bankrupt the country in the name of integration.

snorlax

]Em, This is quite entertaining, more because I didn't see you at the ducac AGM demaning change now did i? ... So complaining without doing much is a bit pointless no?

[/QUOTE]
were you at that AGM, how do you know i wasnt there? i have actually dicussed with this with the disablity officier, and me a passivist, never! im an action person, i motivate others and then when i v got the support of others take a systematic approach to tackling problems, do you think they'd listen to a random student? of course not, thats why go about drumming up support rather then rushing hot headed into a suituation. and i have been known to do this on more then one occasion for the benefit of the student body (ican expand on this further if you want me to)

What they can do is goto a different pub, if you had your way the long library would probally be ripped out for not being wheelchair accessable. Like i said there is a limit, if their m8's were half decent they would just goto the buttery or another pub where they can get in.

in case you havent noticed a heck of alot of pubs are inaccessible in the city centre, and moving about on a manual wheelchair is quite tiring, up to 20mins to get from the buttery to the pav....im not talking about the long library (whuc actuallym is accessible), im talking about a student epicentre, did you not see the crowds there last week?why should they not be entitled to use the same facilities we all use?

Erm, electronic voting in the long run should provide a system that is much harder to tamper with and much more efficent and relyable than human voting. So its not flittering it away, the conterversay has been over its relyability in its current form, dodgey software or something.

well why did the goverment scrap it after wasting 300million of tax payers money, or how about bertie's stadium, the list of wasted money goes on....maybe they should have thought of the dodgey softwear before just simply throwing their money at it.

Proper legislation? you have the disability act, what would you like now?

the disability act is currently beiung revamped because it is inaqucuate, a new one is being made, however even the new one is very vague and has many loopholes that might allow cold discrimnation and prejudice against the disabled community.

Actually i'd be very surprised if you didn't find that males were the majority patron's of the pav. And if you look at toilet facilities throughout the college female ones are usually superior, though that can be extened elsewhere also.

you a regular visitor to the female toilets? never seen the queues in the pav? perphaps it isnt as efficient an operation for females as it is for males. but the facts are men are still actually a minority population in college.

And how is this different than ur previous arguement about injury/being pissed?
And as for the eldery, if they are meeting their daughter its not too much for her to choose a pub where they have easy access. The elderly tend to deteriate so any changes to acessability would probally only be a stopgap.

again most pubs are inaccesible and in rural ireland there mightnt exactly be a choice and why should they have to travel the extra hour?

the point of my point was to highlight the isolation that results from discrimination and exclusion. my point about drunkeness/ injuiry is that everybody suffers from some from of disablity so therefore apathy is not an excuse, as disablity affects EVERYBODY

i just think its lunacy to destroy a building like the pav to accomidate a few people, its an old listed building. Sure make ones where it makes sence accessable and new buildings, but something old like the pav should just be left alone.

it dosnt have to be destroyed if the proper people are brought in to help in the consultation process.

Yeah its called the buttery, another student bar on campus that is wheelchair accessable

the buttery is accesible but there are so many other facultities that aren't, the pav obviously being the best example. (ill start listing them at the end of this post)

I ain't debating exclusion isn't nice for them, but at the end of the day you can't keep pouring money down the endless drain of integration of everyone, if i break both my arms should a staff member in the pav be forced to feed me? ... i might feel excluded otherwise.

you should be entitled at least to be able to access the premisses, you might get fed u were a girl.
drain? so you do consider it a waste of money to integrate people? becuse thats what your saying.

The elderly tend to deteriate so any changes to acessability would probally only be a stopgap.

okay ill remmber that when you want some assistive technology to prevent your mother from remortgaging her house to pay for fulltime care in a nursing home. also alot of AT and gadgets are re-used, so a waste of money, i don;t think so. sure might as well leave them immobile in their bed where they can develop pressure sores, manic depression, and wallow in their own bowel incontinence. sure who give a damn cause theyll deterioraite anyhow (and what about improving the quaility if their remaining life? slowing the deterioration, you deteriorate and are dying from the day you are born im afraid!)

you do go around and around with the same arguements a bit

perphaps i need to point out the points that keep getting missed

20,000 euro wouldn't do anything to the pav, see previous threads regarding this matter.

another 10, 000 could convert the downstairs toilet. also bear in mind the trinity association wer'e willing to give an allocation of money to this project.

Have u been downstairs? its not that big, and a carvan/prefab for the changing rooms? these pav is an age old place for rugby and cricket teams, let them cross the road to use a toilet.

yes i have. again if the facilites are bad they 'd probably want to sort that out and not to the detriment of the disabled population, weren't we getting a new sports centre. also a prefab is agood enough for computor users so im sure it'd be good enough for a rugby team.

foresight of the managers? what now? to a manager one customer is not worth spending 3 million on yer pub which will provide u with no revenue gain.

it wouldnt cost 3million, merely a few thousand. and how about 40 users x 3drinks a week (=40users X 3drinks per week(=about 7euro) x 40weeks a year (or so roughly college year)= potential of 11, 200 euro a year...

I don't know the in's and outs of that project so i can't comment.

well then if you dont know whats going on how you can't argue on something that you dont know the in's and out's of how can you put forward a rounded argument suggesting that prejudicial attidtudes don;t exist.

Your suggesting i'm ignorant? i'm aware of what they require, and a certain ammount they should get but if you got ur way it would bankrupt the country in the name of integration.

nope, im suggestig you try and understand the other point of view.spend a day in a wheelchair going to lectures, a normal day and then come back to me and discuss this further. our education system lacks education on integration of minority groupings and prejudicial attidues that exist, that is their fault not anyone elses.
i dont want to bankrupt the country merely i dont want it turn into a mini take what you can get / egocentric society, but i am probably too late there..sure why bother with welfare, free healthcare, they are minorities.....

cuckoo

*eats popcorn*

snorlax

well my minutes on boards are numbered, im about to head back to Portlaoise...

also, we are all entitled to our own points of view and it always intesting to see how other people stand on issues such as this....the beauty of these boards is that we have to listen to each other, and regonise there is always logic on both sides of the argument no matter what our own personal convictions may be....

snorlax

snorlax wrote:

is trinity not for the students? is trinity just one big business who dosnt take its student population into account?

You may wish to ask yourself how much of your registration fee goes towards student services, and specifically how much of the increase last year went to give funding to the Health Centre (one of the best, though horribly underfunded student facilities we have in college)

The registration fee was increased to €750 this year (an increase of €80). Of the fee, €250 can be spent as part of the College’s core budget, but the remainder is to be spent on student services, exams/registration, and student organisations.

The breakdown has just been given to the SU, and is bad news – there has been virtually no increase in the health centre funding, but the amount of money to other areas (e.g. exams) has risen. Also, the funding of services by Trinity directly has been reduced.

http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~daithi/exec/ExecMinutesTT1.pdf

snorlax

i wasnt refering to the health service, even though the physio is impossible to get to if you 'v a wheelchair. well if they got all that money for student sevices could't they use it for enabling access to the pav?

are you an su guru?

im refering to ducac putting profits before the welfare of students.

Here's just some of the places inaccesible apart ffrom the pav,

1) counselling service/ psn h/q
2) physio
3) toilets and canteen in james
4) laser huts
5) luce sports hall
6) The museaum
7) speech therapy building (and they actually have a wheelchair user who needs to be carried up stairs between lecures!)
8) the berkely entrance to the library
9) the pav
10) the examination hall (sure they dont actually need to graduate do they?!)
11) the 2nd floor of the hamilton library (and yes there is a jf pharmacy student)

read this article if you wnant to see where im coming from in my perspective;

http://proquest.umi.com/pdf/be423d56e29276b563c347fb07b3fece/1118585201/share2/pqimage/irs2/20050612093641366/8449/out.pdf

(you need to use the proxy server to access research databases if your outside tcd) , i thikn this article sums up whay iv being trying to say...

also check out http://www.nda.ie for further answers that may anwser some of your arguments in relation to the law/ integration/ equality and prejudice

snorlax

snorlax wrote:

are you an su guru?

I'm just spouting what I know, like everyone else.

masteroftherealm

The toilets in Trin are weird, the ones in Hamliton have graffitii that invloves maths equations????? Only reason I dont run outta that place is cause of the CompSci has the only decent room...

snorlax

they are actually quite entertaining some of the stuff thats written on them, or even on the library desks, especially the lecky toilets.

fluppet

It is my opinion that the best toilets in Trinity are those under the stairs near the Pharmacy department, next to La Scala. While they are not particularly luxurious in their fittings or lighting, they are usually clean. The best thing about them though is that they appear to share the same air supply as La Scala (which is a bit worrying), so there is always a wonderful smell in there. This was also, many of you may remember, the home of the Richard Timoney Appreciation Cubicle, so you can think about the Timonator, and enjoy the smell at the same time. How can you resist?

snorlax

the la scala coffee is pretty good!...that and the coffee from aras an phiarsigh! best coffee on campus, the only time i drink loads of the tarry stuff is around exam time...!:)

DrIndy

I prefer Jesus Coffee - strong enough to walk on.........