Poker Sites - Exchange Rates Tip

Culchie

Just had a bit of a browse on a few different poker sites.

There is a significant difference between the poker sites on the US $ / Euro exchange rates.

As nearly all sites are played in dollars, your deposits, and more importantly your stakes, rake and winnings are issued/taken in dollars.
This affects your bottom line profit significantly.

Why should $100 be worth €80.97 (VC) on one site, but worth €81.97 (PPP)on another, a 'same skin' site in fact.
No big deal you may think, but if you think of all the time, you are in and out of your cashier account, all the pots you play, all the entry and reg fees per tourney....then it adds up ..... BIG TIME


So ... Culchies tip for the day :rolleyes: ..... spend a little time sussing out the exchange rates on the different sites, and you can play a same skin site and against the same players etc ...and save alot of money !


P.S ... Hector .... you can buy me a pint, as this will save you a fortune !!

P.P.S ... PPP PitBoss .. If Hector changes to PPP you can buy me a WSOP ticket ! ... Peanuts !

ocallagh

i know on some sites, the exchange rate you get when you purchase chips is the same one used when you cash out from the table regardless of market movements while u were at the table! so it doesn't really matter what rate you get.

ocallagh

sorry - i should have been clearer

say for example,
$100 STT on PPP costs €82
$100 STT on VC costs €81

you win & cashout $450 at the same rate you bought into the tourney for.

on PPP you get $450 * 0.82 which is equal to €369
on VC you get $450 * 0.81 which is equal to €364.50

So, even though it costs you an extra €1 on PPP, you stand to win an extra €4.50. Different exchange rates just mean slightly different stakes, the winnings should be in proportion.

If a poker site gave you a different exchange rate for registration to the one they gave you when cashing out then you'd have a case!

bohsman

Think hes talking about when you lodge/withdraw money

DeVore

Aye, your money is held in USD and converted in and out of USD when you pay-in or cash out of a site. Since that could be months between events the market movements could be sizeable (as is currently happening with USD).

On the other hand, if you could find somewhere online (Net-teller?) that would allow you to convert and store your cash in the currency of your choosing you could then actually play the markets for profit if you felt like it. I used to work in a stock brokerage which dealt with hundreds of millions of pounds in currency exchange trading and the money to be made at that level is phenomenal. The difference between sites isnt that big but compared to what you could make speculating properly its chump change. Usually broker fees for conversion stop people day-trading on flucuations in the market but if you could find somewhere online that didnt charge or charged very little to convert your money then if could be done
(Think of the brokerage charge as a rake! )

All of which is slightly off topic, I know PPP daily update their rates in line with international rates so that they are accurate.

DeV.

Imposter

DeVore wrote:

Aye, your money is held in USD and converted in and out of USD when you pay-in or cash out of a site. Since that could be months between events the market movements could be sizeable (as is currently happening with USD).

....

All of which is slightly off topic, I know PPP daily update their rates in line with international rates so that they are accurate.

DeV.

It's not held in $ on PPP! It is held in € and any change in exchange rate means your $ amount changes. I had a thread here a while ago asking pitboss if this was likely to be changed. I *think* VC may be the same but i'm not 100% on that. Ladbrokes uses a seperate poker wallet so that it is as you described. PPP on the other hand use the same wallet for the sportsbook and poker (and presumably casino). But you should know all this

Samba

correct

DeVore

Sorry, I didnt mean to imply that they were. (In fact I didnt actually say they did!).

No matter in which currency your money is held, you are going to have a problem. If its held in Euros then when you go to a dollar table it will get converted. If its held in dollars then you get hit by any market movements when you cash out.

The only way to do it would be for the entire world to play in Euro... then of course the americans would have the problem.

DeV.

ocallagh

DeVore wrote:

No matter in which currency your money is held, you are going to have a problem. If its held in Euros then when you go to a dollar table it will get converted. If its held in dollars then you get hit by any market movements when you cash out.

I don't know if this is correct. I think you get the same exchange rate when cashing from a table, as you do when you enter it. The ONLY way the exchange rate will have an effect on your balance is if your cashier account is held in a different currency to your credit card. On PPP, my cashier account is in EUR as is my Credit Card, so I don't have to worry about exchange rates. I think this is the same for the majoriy of PPP players.

With ths setup, a change in exchange rates just means a slight change in the stakes..

RoundTower

Does this work?

My PPP account is in euro, and my "friend"'s account is in dollars. We sit down with $10,000 each at a heads up table and sit around for a few days. I assume we don't pay rake if we never see a flop.

If the exchange rate has gone in my favour he dumps the chips to me and I cash out for more than $20,000. Otherwise I dump them to him and he cashes out for more than $20,000.

I don't play much online poker, and I'm sure the sites look out for this kind of arbitrage but it looks like the kind of loophole one could exploit. Feel free to point out reasons this doesn't work.

ocallagh

You would lose all your money in 3 days from the rake... and you'll get booted from a table if you sit there inactive for more than half an hour or so. there might be a way though.. if you could manage to get a few thousand onto the 10c 20c tables...

or how about this one?

if you have capital aboad, by means of proft from a business investment or inheritance from abroad etc, you have to pay tax when you take the cash into Ireland. But not if it's from gambling.. so you setup a credit card in the foreign country and dump it all on to your credt card in ireland via your favourite poker site. I'm sure PPP-Pitboss will love this one - i'd be interested to hear your thoughts

You could also use this method to tranfer money abroad for a lower commision than the banks offer

okidoki987

But not if it's from gambling.. so you setup a credit card in the foreign country and dump it all on to your credt card in ireland

For starters you would need an address in the country that you are using to open a credit card account, also I'd think you would run into problems with refrences etc.

via your favourite poker site. I'm sure PPP-Pitboss will love this one - i'd be interested to hear your thoughts
You could also use this method to tranfer money abroad for a lower commision than the banks offer

If there was a way to make money using the different sites, I'm sure somebody would have spotted it already.

Imposter

okidoki987 wrote:

If there was a way to make money using the different sites, I'm sure somebody would have spotted it already.

There is! Play on them.

/I've said too much

ocallagh

okidoki987 wrote:

For starters you would need an address in the country that you are using to open a credit card account, also I'd think you would run into problems with refrences etc.

setting up a credit card in a foreign country is very very easy to do...

okidoki987 wrote:

If there was a way to make money using the different sites, I'm sure somebody would have spotted it already.

if it's possible, i guarantee people are already doing it!!

bohsman

Of course it happens, thats why ppp have their bloody 72hr rule, its easy to launder money, of course thats of no use to most of us as we wouldnt have any reason to

Culchie

Been away for a few days, so just looked up this thread again.

I think the main jist of the thread has been missed.

If you play a $100 STT, and you are being charged $10 for entry fee , it is bloody well important that you are charged the correct rate of exchange because over time this will add up to a substantial amount of money.
The $100 goes into the pot, the $10 is gone !!

Taking the examples of VC and PPP at the time I wrote the first post.
$ 100 (VC) = €80.97 $100 (PPP) = €81.97


So it costs you more to lodge money with PPP, if you were lodging a sum of $100.
All very well if you are a winning player (as of course everyone is !) as the exchange works both ways....... however from the Poker Sites point of view they clean up from

(a) The higher cost of registration fee being charged to each customer who plays (this also implies to every single raked pot! )

(b) All the losing players, who don't get their winnings back, their money is gone, so they did not receive real value for their $ , as they would have been able to play more STT's or more raked pots if they were receiving the more generous rate of exchange. (Don't forget there is 6/7 losers in a STT as well as 3 winners) .... and of course cash tables generate more losers than winners.


This does make a big difference to bottom line .... check it out.

Waylander

There are also people cashing out from that site every day, and these people will be getting a better rate on cashout also. It is swings and roundabouts Culchie, and there is nothing that can be done about it anyway. All you can do is decide which site you think gives you the best deal and play that one.

Culchie

Waylander wrote:

There are also people cashing out from that site every day, and these people will be getting a better rate on cashout also. It is swings and roundabouts Culchie, and there is nothing that can be done about it anyway. All you can do is decide which site you think gives you the best deal and play that one.

Hi Waylander

Your point still does not take into account the rake and registration fees.

Waylander

Culchie I am not sure what your point is. The only time you will incur a cost here is when you deposit money to the account, or when cashing out, as these are the only times the exchange difference comes into play. Your euros do not get converted every time you buy into a stt or cash game.

Culchie

and what about the rake that is deducted from you ?...

I'm not going to dig myself a hole I can't get out of , I may be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.

Waylander

The only time an exchange rate can effect you is when you are actually exchanging currencies. This is only done on deposit or withdrawal to account. Once your euro is converted to dollars this hit has been taken and cannot arise again until you translate you dollars back into Euro. As your account is in the same currency (ie US$) as all the transactions that are going through it, barring deposits and withdrawals, the exchange rate cannot effect these transactions.

ocallagh

Culchie wrote:

If you play a $100 STT, and you are being charged $10 for entry fee , it is bloody well important that you are charged the correct rate of exchange because over time this will add up to a substantial amount of money.
The $100 goes into the pot, the $10 is gone !!

Taking the examples of VC and PPP at the time I wrote the first post.
$ 100 (VC) = €80.97 $100 (PPP) = €81.97

This was covered in an earlier post Culchie... exchange rates on STTs don't matter because you get the same exchange rate when you cash out from a table as you do when you register for it. (I have confirmed this with PPP)

Deciding whether to play that $100 tourny on VC or PPP is just like deciding to play a €80.97 STT or a €81.97 STT... (The Reg is always a percent of your buy in, so of course on PPP it will be slightly higher)

Waylander

Having said the above, if you log into your Paddy Power sports book account, which is supposedly the same account, you do get your balance in euros, and place you bets in euros. This means that for each transaction on either the poker, or the sports book, there must be a currency conversion and there must be an extra hit. PPP Pit boss could you tell me if I am correct here please?

Culchie

Waylander wrote:

Having said the above, if you log into your Paddy Power sports book account, which is supposedly the same account, you do get your balance in euros, and place you bets in euros. This means that for each transaction on either the poker, or the sports book, there must be a currency conversion and there must be an extra hit. PPP Pit boss could you tell me if I am correct here please?

Yeh, I think there is plenty going on here .... I've convinced myself this is important to bottom line .... I just need to prove it.

Imposter

Waylander wrote:

Having said the above, if you log into your Paddy Power sports book account, which is supposedly the same account, you do get your balance in euros, and place you bets in euros. This means that for each transaction on either the poker, or the sports book, there must be a currency conversion and there must be an extra hit. PPP Pit boss could you tell me if I am correct here please?

It's like i said earlier in the thread.

Every time you play poker you do the transfer. They use the same rate for both directions of movement so it shouldn't be a problem. It is annoying though if you use your account primarily/only for poker as the amount of $ you have to play with keeps changing with the exchange rate. So if you have $11.01 one day a change in the rate might mean you only have $10.99 and so can't play that 10$ stt you were going to, for example.

ocallagh

Waylander wrote:

Having said the above, if you log into your Paddy Power sports book account, which is supposedly the same account, you do get your balance in euros, and place you bets in euros. This means that for each transaction on either the poker, or the sports book, there must be a currency conversion and there must be an extra hit. PPP Pit boss could you tell me if I am correct here please?

I doubt if ppp charge any conversion rate.. It would be illegal as i don't think ppp are actually purchasing $ for you when you enter a tourny. the chips on the table are just a representation..

I am convinced that the only way an exchange rate can screw you is if your CC is different currency to your Cahsier account.

PPP-Pitboss should be able to clarify any of these issues..

Waylander

Yeah Imposter and O Callagh, I think you are right, but I would like to get confirmation of this from Pit boss. This is why I think the ladbrokes set up is much better than the Paddy Power one. In Laddies your sports book and poker accounts while linked, so you transfer between them etc., are seperate, and held in seperate currencies. I would much prefer if Paddy Power introduced this setup.

Culchie

Having got the notepad out and scribbled out a few scenarios ... I've come to the following conclusion.

(a) The players fluctuation is at point of deposit/withdrawal, it is here where the player themselves take the hit. This includes all transaction via sportsbook to euro currency as well.

(b) The Poker sites (in this example PPP) are making alot of money from the 'rake' and reg fees and this is an additional currency margin of approx 1.2%.

Imposter

Culchie wrote:

Having got the notepad out and scribbled out a few scenarios ... I've come to the following conclusion.

(a) The players fluctuation is at point of deposit/withdrawal, it is here where the player themselves take the hit. This includes all transaction via sportsbook to euro currency as well.

This is true for sites that hold your poker money in $. If the main currency is in € it is not the case (for poker). So in the case of PPP if you just use the sportsbook you don't have any currency hits. If you just play poker you have the problem as I described above. In the case of Pokerstars or Party for example you will be hit with currency charges on deposits and withdrawals.

(b) The Poker sites (in this example PPP) are making alot of money from the 'rake' and reg fees and this is an additional currency margin of approx 1.2%.

I don't see how PPP make money from the currency here. Other sites do make money here.

In saying that I like Waylander would like a poker wallet like what Ladbrokes have as even though you also get hit with currency transfers on deposits and withdrawals, your poker monies are constant and not variable depending on the currency markets.

Culchie

Imposter wrote:

I don't see how PPP make money from the currency here. Other sites do make money here.

Because if a $100 reg fees collected from a 10 table $100 STT (I know it's 9 but maths are easier) is equal to €80.97 on VC, and €81.97 on PPP .... then the extra €1 goes straight to the bottom line ....no?

The fees go straight to PPP bank and lodged at whatever real rate of exchange is .... equals currency exchange profit.

Imposter

Culchie wrote:

Because if a $100 reg fees collected from a 10 table $100 STT (I know it's 9 but maths are easier) is equal to €80.97 on VC, and €81.97 on PPP .... then the extra €1 goes straight to the bottom line ....no?

The fees go straight to PPP bank and lodged at whatever real rate of exchange is .... equals currency exchange profit.

But that makes no difference to the player. If you win on PPP you'll win 81*5 whereas i'll only win 80*5 on VC! PPP may take more rake but they'll also pay out more. But it still amkes no difference to the player except for the fact that people on different sites are playing for marginally different stakes.