Korean Martial Arts "A Real History"

pma-ire

Surfin' around the net tonight I came across this gem. Anyone interested in a real insight to the history of the Korean Martial Arts and Tae Kwon Do should read this.

http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm

Millionaire

When I did TKD in canada for a few years . pure sport TKD WTF.

The MAster of the Assoc in Montreal was called Oh Jang, a wee small butt of a man. and he had all his senior black belts (grown men) (I was only like 20 and a student in uni over there) brain washed, that he beat Mas Oyama in a fight and knocked him out.

Now Oyama was a bull of a man (excuse pun, he killed bulls with bare hands, a fallicous thing to do)

After I left and though about it for a while. I realised the type of TKD I did was in to total super natural master worship! which ainlt healthy for progression.

Sorry Paul for hijacking your thread, but I needed to have me WTF rant!

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

After I left and though about it for a while. I realised the type of TKD I did was in to total super natural master worship! which ainlt healthy for progression.

Sorry Paul for hijacking your thread, but I needed to have me WTF rant!

This is my point excatly!!

The Koreans promote TKD (Both ITF and WTF) for ego, subjection and political reasons. The more I find out about the real roots of the Korean martial arts the more I am drawn towards the real original arts like Chung Do Kwan and the Mo Duk Kwan, which use the Okinawan and Japanese Kata, and not the political driven mashed up ones created afterwards.

The funny thing about the Korean Masters! Is that it's a real boys club!! All the original founders were 1st dans only in the core arts and then went off to form there own arts. Over the years getting there friends to give them grades and indeed giving themselves grades as they went along.

The very same guys would scoff at anyone that disagreed with them and went off on there own and claim them as cowboys :rolleyes:

Millionaire

Thats very interesting back ground.

I have an old Mu Du Kwan book knockign about me grannies (RIP) house down in monaghan somewhere. If I ever find it, i 'l post it down to ya and ya can have it. By Richard Chun, I met him in NYC once years ago, when I stuck me nose into his dojang.

Wasn't Tang Soo Do, Japanese influenced too?

WHat about this Sin Moo Hap Ki Do?

or Kool Soo Wan (spelling??)

The hero worship I saw in WTF TKD in canada was sickening. and the tournaments , grown men in their 40s strutting about, kiss ass of old korean chain smoking "masters" , like peacocks, or extras out of old tv show Kung FU.


I'd say the master Hee LL Cho, is good, I read about him alot years back and he seems to be the real deal? I think he comes to ireland too?

Roper

Millionaire wrote:

I'd say the master Hee LL Cho, is good, I read about him alot years back and he seems to be the real deal? I think he comes to ireland too?

You wouldn't find GM Cho chain smoking too much.

He's sort of the template for anyone who wants powerful spinning kicks in TKD, literally wrote the book on them.
Unbelievable, old enough to get his bus pass and still training like a beast. puts younger men to shame.
Plus he boxed, advocates grappling, fought full contact and generally did all the things many so called masters stray away from. Still teaches daily, kids and all. He was over for a seminar about 2 years ago, and for his WC's last year.
Had some cool haircuts during the 80's too

memphis

I obviously didn't read it all, but from what I did read it certainly is worth going through.

Going by that article though, there appears to be alot of confusion about the origin of Tae Kwon Do, and I was surprised to read the bit about the Silla Dynasty and Hwarang, which according to the author is not really related to Korean and the Korean Art of the time.

On another note, it seems to be more focused on WTF more so than the traditional ITF style. Correct me if I'm wrong. This of course probably causing more confusion as, as we all know, WTF is the more modern side of the MA focusing on sport and the olympics.

Oh, probably a stupid question from someone with my training in TKD (a year and ahalf), but are the patterns different in ITF and those of WTF? I see that all the WTF sites refer to 'em as poomse, while the stye I train in (ITF style) does Tuls such as Chong Ji, and Dan Gun, etc.

Cake Fiend

Millionaire wrote:

Wasn't Tang Soo Do, Japanese influenced too?

AFAIK, Tang Soo Do was simply karate taught in Korea. Okinawan karate was originally formed mainly from Chinese boxing (Chuan Fa), and also Okinawa's own martial art, 'te' (meaning simply 'hands'). The new art was known as "kara te", meaning 'Chinese hands' at the time. The 'kara' in the name was the Okinawan pronunciation for the chinese character for 'Tang', referring to the Tang dynasty. The korean 'tang soo do' refers to this original meaning of 'karate do', before the 'kara' kanji was changed to another, meaning 'empty' (also pronounced 'kara') out of worry that the Japanese wouldn't like the idea of this art being of Chinese origin.

Point of interest: many Kempo (Okinawan pronunciation of 'Chuan Fa') karate schools use the original 'Tang' kanji in 'karate', as opposed to most modern schools which use the 'empty' kanji.

Roper

Sico wrote:

Point of interest: many Kempo (Okinawan pronunciation of 'Chuan Fa') karate schools use the original 'Tang' kanji in 'karate', as opposed to most modern schools which use the 'empty' kanji.

Point of interest eh? That would depend on your interests..

Seriously though, this argument is being repeated the world over, and disputed in equal measure by ITF practitioners.
I haven't yet seen many WTF guys getting their back up over their arts origins, but maybe that's cos they've got the Olympics

IMO, Tae Kwon Do is in a state of flux. It's reputation has been tarnished by the mcdojo phenomenon in the US and by events like UFC and such. It's a fantastic art, and has much to offer. But like all arts it has its limits. It's when the practitioner doesn't accept these limits that the problems begin.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Had some cool haircuts during the 80's too

He has a pretty cool one at the moment also!!

http://www.aimaa.com/grandmastercho.html

He's a real martial arts master!!

pma-ire

Sico wrote:

AFAIK, Tang Soo Do was simply karate taught in Korea. Okinawan karate was originally formed mainly from Chinese boxing (Chuan Fa), and also Okinawa's own martial art, 'te' (meaning simply 'hands'). The new art was known as "kara te", meaning 'Chinese hands' at the time. The 'kara' in the name was the Okinawan pronunciation for the chinese character for 'Tang', referring to the Tang dynasty. The korean 'tang soo do' refers to this original meaning of 'karate do', before the 'kara' kanji was changed to another, meaning 'empty' (also pronounced 'kara') out of worry that the Japanese wouldn't like the idea of this art being of Chinese origin.

Point of interest: many Kempo (Okinawan pronunciation of 'Chuan Fa') karate schools use the original 'Tang' kanji in 'karate', as opposed to most modern schools which use the 'empty' kanji.

Nice one Sico

Thats pretty much it alright!!

pma-ire

memphis wrote:

I obviously didn't read it all, but from what I did read it certainly is worth going through.

Going by that article though, there appears to be alot of confusion about the origin of Tae Kwon Do, and I was surprised to read the bit about the Silla Dynasty and Hwarang, which according to the author is not really related to Korean and the Korean Art of the time.

On another note, it seems to be more focused on WTF more so than the traditional ITF style. Correct me if I'm wrong. This of course probably causing more confusion as, as we all know, WTF is the more modern side of the MA focusing on sport and the olympics.

Oh, probably a stupid question from someone with my training in TKD (a year and ahalf), but are the patterns different in ITF and those of WTF? I see that all the WTF sites refer to 'em as poomse, while the stye I train in (ITF style) does Tuls such as Chong Ji, and Dan Gun, etc.

Read the full thing! It goes into origin details of the ITF and WTF. What is traditional? And what is modern?

The ITF was only started by Choi because he got kicked out of the country. Then the WTF started up a few years afterwards? There is not much time between them!!

Both groups are looking for world domination and are driven by politics. The patterns of the ITF are chopped up misunderstood mush of the original Karate katas. The WTF poomse (which is just a way for the WTF and ITF to have different words for the same things) are movements made even further removed from the original Katas.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Seriously though, this argument is being repeated the world over, and disputed in equal measure by ITF practitioners.

This is because so many people have been blinkered into the stories Koreans have made up to suit themselves, and this is always new to someone.

Roper wrote:

I haven't yet seen many WTF guys getting their back up over their arts origins, but maybe that's cos they've got the Olympics

And do you think thats a good thing?? The Olympic TKD is now a sport and not anythign near a martial (fighting) art.

Roper wrote:

It's a fantastic art, and has much to offer. But like all arts it has its limits. It's when the practitioner doesn't accept these limits that the problems begin.

Indeed they do.

memphis

pma-ire wrote:

Read the full thing! It goes into origin details of the ITF and WTF. What is traditional? And what is modern?

Yes, sir, Mr O'Leary, Sir!

Have printed it all off to read through it, but have yet to do so! Like I say certainly worth the read, going by what I have read so far.

The ITF was only started by Choi because he got kicked out of the country. Then the WTF started up a few years afterwards? There is not much time between them!!
Both groups are looking for world domination and are driven by politics. The patterns of the ITF are chopped up misunderstood mush of the original Karate katas. The WTF poomse (which is just a way for the WTF and ITF to have different words for the same things) are movements made even further removed from the original Katas.

When you say original kata's I assume you mean the ones shown in the links you posted up in another thread? Pretty cool alot of em!

grosser

choi was not kicked out of the country!his birthplace,or home as it is sometimes known just happened to lie in north korea.he chose this as the home of taekwon-do,until he moved to canada.
itf is the original form of the art where as wtf is not,it is the non communist version as the americans refered to it!
i have not had much training in karate,so i am not familiar as to katas,but i am well trained in itf taekwon-do,the patterns, or tul as they are known in korean,are effective ways of training ones body and mind!the itf of today employs scientific principles in all movements and techniques which make it extremely effective and very powerful!

Roper

And do you think thats a good thing?? The Olympic TKD is now a sport and not anythign near a martial (fighting) art.

BUT! The WTF is a recognised Olympic SPORT, not a martial art and regardless of your opinions of it, when a sport reaches Olympic level, you have to respect it. If your complaint is "it's not deadly anymore" well, whatever you're into, but you have to respect the dedication that it takes to compete at Olympic level.
I think it's as dull as dishwater myself, but hey I respect the skill and as a practitioner of it once said to me before, it's a game where a player can get top class coaching facilities united under one national banner and have a chance to compete at a genuine world level ie. the Olympics. I can't think of one martial art that can say the same bar Judo.

grosser wrote:

the patterns, or tul as they are known in korean,are effective ways of training ones body and mind!the itf of today employs scientific principles in all movements and techniques which make it extremely effective and very powerful!

Hi Grosser,
I'm just wondering as an ITFer what you think of the origins of the Tul as set out in the article PMA posted above?Would you subsribe to that point of view?

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

choi was not kicked out of the country!his birthplace,or home as it is sometimes known just happened to lie in north korea.he chose this as the home of taekwon-do,until he moved to canada.
itf is the original form of the art where as wtf is not,it is the non communist version as the americans refered to it!
i have not had much training in karate,so i am not familiar as to katas,but i am well trained in itf taekwon-do,the patterns, or tul as they are known in korean,are effective ways of training ones body and mind!the itf of today employs scientific principles in all movements and techniques which make it extremely effective and very powerful!

If you look at any set of Shotokan katas you will see they are very much the same as Chang Hon.

grosser

there is no pattern called chang hon in itf taekwon-do!

grosser

hi roper
(that anything to do with enter the dragon?)
as a student,and soon to be instructer of itf,no i dont subscribe to pma-ire's point of view!i have seen katas from karate,and they dont look like any of the patterns i have learned!that said,one should know that itf has continually evolved over the last fifty od years since its birth as a martial art!
it is quite possible as i have seen on many occassions in ireland,that the taekwon-do patterns pma-ire is talking about are old patterns!


(The funny thing about the Korean Masters! Is that it's a real boys club!! All the original founders were 1st dans only in the core arts and then went off to form there own arts. Over the years getting there friends to give them grades and indeed giving themselves grades as they went along.-posted by pma-ire.)

the above qoute could also refer to what happened in ireland!

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

there is no pattern called chang hon in itf taekwon-do!

http://www.karateforums.com/archive/o_t/t_20056/chang_hon_patterns.html

http://www.taekwondo.edu.sg/about.htm

http://www.utbtaekwondo.us/itf.htm

Please look these sites up! :rolleyes:

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

as a student,and soon to be instructer of itf,no i dont subscribe to pma-ire's point of view!

You don't have to. anyone that looks into the history of Korean martial arts will see the link and direct reflection in ITF TKD.

grosser wrote:

i have seen katas from karate,and they dont look like any of the patterns i have learned!

Really? Have you not seen Heian Nidan and seen Won Hyo and Dan Gun and a bit of Hwa Rang jumping out at you?

grosser wrote:

that said,one should know that itf has continually evolved over the last fifty od years since its birth as a martial art!

The problem is that this thing about evolving is a bit of a money spinner...

"This is how this move is done" ((few years later, big seminar called to show new breakthrough developments. after paying out loads of money to attend because you would not be teaching real TKD without attending!!))

"After looking at this move we have come up with the fact that it should be now done this way instead"
"Repeat move for the next two hours please"

grosser wrote:

it is quite possible as i have seen on many occassions in ireland,that the taekwon-do patterns pma-ire is talking about are old patterns!

They are old patterns. But not just of TKD, or even Japanese/Okinawan Karate. But from Chinese forms of fighting. The political changing of these movements lessened the original intention of them.

grosser wrote:

"Over the years getting there friends to give them grades and indeed giving themselves grades as they went along".-posted by pma-ire.

the above qoute could also refer to what happened in ireland!

This happened everywhere in Korean MA's and still is happening

I respect your choice and belief in what you are doing.

grosser

http://www.tkd-itf.org/index.htm

this is the official site for itf taekwon-do.

Tim_Murphy

http://www.tkd-itf.org/index.htm

this is the official site for itf taekwon-do.

As well as http://www.itf-online.com and
http://www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com/

They are the 'official' website of the ITF (for a given value of official).

grosser

Tim_Murphy wrote:

As well as http://www.itf-online.com and
http://www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com/

They are the 'official' website of the ITF (for a given value of official).

ongoing court case at moment as to who can officially use the term itf!
the itf im a member of is currently under the presidency of master tran!
latest i heard, we were winning the court case in question!
unfortunately it is the case that after grandmaster chois death, a split followed in which we know have three ,as you say "official" itf's!
theres just too much politics involved,can be very disheartening!

grosser

pma-ire wrote:

You don't have to. anyone that looks into the history of Korean martial arts will see the link and direct reflection in ITF TKD.


The problem is that this thing about evolving is a bit of a money spinner...

"This is how this move is done" ((few years later, big seminar called to show new breakthrough developments. after paying out loads of money to attend because you would not be teaching real TKD without attending!!))

"After looking at this move we have come up with the fact that it should be now done this way instead"
Repeat move for the next two hours please"

remember that even though taekwon-do is based on older martial arts,it inself is very young in comparison!as to moves being changed,to make them more efficient,im sure that this would have been the case in every martial art's infancy!it would be wrong to think that moves in any martial art could never been improved upon in some way!i have seen examples of this in taekwon-do as it is today compared to twenty or even thirty years ago!

as regards the similarities in the patterns,after watching the links you posted, i agree that there are similarities,which makes sense considering choi was a karate black belt!but i see this only in the shape of certain moves!the movements seem rigid and stiff also there is no sinewave in them!thats the difference!

They are old patterns. But not just of TKD, or even Japanese/Okinawan Karate. But from Chinese forms of fighting. The political changing of these movements lessened the original intention of them
This happened everywhere in Korean MA's and still is happening

I respect your choice and belief in what you are doing.

also the naming of the patterns was to celebrate great figures,including political,in koreas history!

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

http://www.tkd-itf.org/index.htm

this is the official site for itf taekwon-do.

So what? I just giving you some information on the "Chang Hon". It you practice ITF TKD then you should have known that Choi used this as his pen name and the name of the set of tuls he developed.

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

ongoing court case at moment as to who can officially use the term itf!
the itf im a member of is currently under the presidency of master tran!
latest i heard, we were winning the court case in question!
unfortunately it is the case that after grandmaster chois death, a split followed in which we know have three ,as you say "official" itf's!

That just back up my earlier comment on the "ITF" being a political party and not a Martial Arts Association!!

grosser wrote:

theres just too much politics involved,can be very disheartening!

I think your in the wrong assoication if thats the case

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

remember that even though taekwon-do is based on older martial arts,it inself is very young

Really! According to many ITF and other TKD sites it's been around for 1000's of years?

grosser wrote:

in comparison!as to moves being changed,to make them more efficient,im sure that this would have been the case in every martial art's infancy!it would be wrong to think that moves in any martial art could never been improved upon in some way!i have seen examples of this in taekwon-do as it is today compared to twenty or even thirty years ago!

They were not changed to make them better at the start. But to make them different to Japanese Karate and easier for Koreans to accept as a national art. this is well documented. (and don't go on about what the "Offical ITF" say, cause they are biggest bunch of story tellers in the world.

grosser wrote:

as regards the similarities in the patterns,after watching the links you posted, i agree that there are similarities,which makes sense considering choi was a karate black belt!but i see this only in the shape of certain moves!the movements seem rigid and stiff also there is no sinewave in them!thats the difference!

Sine Wave is not an effective body motion!

It is a creation of the ITF to again make there TKD different.

grosser wrote:

also the naming of the patterns was to celebrate great figures,including political,in koreas history!

Again! Choi created his TKD as a political move.

grosser

why is sine wave not an effective body motion?

memphis

I personally think that Sine Wave is pointless bullshido.

Its far more effective/impressive looking to perform Tuls/Katas with hip motions and stronger power. Breathing out while executing a punch/kick/bloke is also an important element.

grosser

memphis wrote:

I personally think that Sine Wave is pointless bullshido.

Its far more effective/impressive looking to perform Tuls/Katas with hip motions and stronger power. Breathing out while executing a punch/kick/bloke is also an important element.

thats all part of the sine wave!

grosser

That just back up my earlier comment on the "ITF" being a political party and not a Martial Arts Association!!

please tell me how it is you see the itf as a political party!i'd like to hear your views on it!

grosser

pma-ire wrote:

So what? I just giving you some information on the "Chang Hon". It you practice ITF TKD then you should have known that Choi used this as his pen name and the name of the set of tuls he developed.

chang hon is not referenced anywhere in the itf encyclopaedia,thats prob why i never heard of it!

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

please tell me how it is you see the itf as a political party!i'd like to hear your views on it!

Just talking your own comments...

ongoing court case at moment as to who can officially use the term itf!
the itf im a member of is currently under the presidency of master tran!
latest i heard, we were winning the court case in question!
unfortunately it is the case that after grandmaster chois death, a split followed in which we know have three ,as you say "official" itf's!

These guys are all looking for power!! No matter who wins this court case, the ITF is gone! Choi was holding them together, now they can do and will do what they want.

Choi's TKD was created from a political drive to give the Koreans a national identity, which then turned into a drive to promote one man as the claimed highest ranking Martial Artist in Korea. The reasons of which are known only to the man himself (RIP).

Please read up on the history of your art. Don't rely on the one source of information which has been tainted to promote the actions and sometimes cover up actions of the arts founders. The way Real ITF guys go on, none of us are really training in TKD and are all cowboys!!

Which is just repeating the speil from the Koreans that brainwashed them.

pma-ire

grosser wrote:

chang hon is not referenced anywhere in the itf encyclopaedia,thats prob why i never heard of it!

My friend! There is much not referenced in the newer versions of Choi's encylopaedia.

The books he wrote first in the late 50's and 60's were far removed from the new books.

There is also the fact that Choi did not really develop the forms himself as his co-instructor Nam Tae Hi in the Oh do kwan was the one with much more martial arts experience.

Again, here is another account of the Korean MA history which goes into much more details...

http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/12TKDDevelop.htm

memphis

grosser wrote:

thats all part of the sine wave!

I know this term gets thrown around with misuse alot, my understanding of the term is that you rise before a move, breath out, and then lower into your stance while performing each move. This is done repeatedly, hence the name Sine WAVE. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I always believed it to mean!

grosser

its a little hard to explain without visual aid,but basically youwould start from a slightly lower positon, then rising while chambering the technique!from there you drop into stance whilst executing technique and exhaling all at same time!the wave is a down up down motion!its important for it to be all one continuous movement,as in dont pause in the movement,acceleration is vital!this mite sound confusing but like i said visual aid would help more!