Why overtime doesn't work.

Hobbes

Nice article more on why excessive overtime doesn't work..

http://www.igda.org/articles/erobinson_crunch.php

nesf

*shrugs*

It assumes all people are alike.


Some people can work a 60 hour week indefinitely without ill effects. Others find a 20 hour week stressful. Depends on the job obviously. But it really isn't something that works very well when you generalise out to try and cover everybody.

In my opinion. Still, he makes some good points.

fintan

The reason overtime doesnt work in ireland is that you 48% tax on any earning over 29,500 euros. So your overtime earnings are nearly halved, making you ask what the point is!

Eurorunner

fintan wrote:

The reason overtime doesnt work in ireland is that you 48% tax on any earning over 29,500 euros. So your overtime earnings are nearly halved, making you ask what the point is!

damn right....and its always been that way.

nesf

fintan wrote:

The reason overtime doesnt work in ireland is that you 48% tax on any earning over 29,500 euros. So your overtime earnings are nearly halved, making you ask what the point is!

Um, I assume you've looked into all the possible tax credits you can apply for and get? Seriously look into it, it's well worth your while.

Amounts of said credits
The requirements to qualify for said credits

Plus even at 48% it's still more money, which is nice

leeroybrown

fintan wrote:

The reason overtime doesnt work in ireland is that you 48% tax on any earning over 29,500 euros. So your overtime earnings are nearly halved, making you ask what the point is!

Don't forget that if you're on less than 44K (just above it) before these overtime hours you'll also have to pay 4% PRSI...

Earthhorse

You shouldn't need a study to tell you why overtime doesn't work. If your company can't get most of its vital work done within normal working ours then in the long run it's going to fail. Simple as.

fintan

Im well up to date on the tax credit front nesf, rent allowance, tuition allowance, pension allowance.

But the higher tax bracket is a killer, we need a nice flat tax like poland, now that would be an incentive to do overtime!

RicardoSmith

nesf wrote:

....Plus even at 48% it's still more money, which is nice

Consider it by the hourly rate. You actually working for less (per hour) on your overtime than in normal hours. If you devalue yourself you'll pay for it in the long run. Why would someone pay you more when they know you'll work for less. Any employer would be mad, not to use that to their advantage. Come time salary review, thats going to go against you.

Earthhorse wrote:

You shouldn't need a study to tell you why overtime doesn't work. If your company can't get most of its vital work done within normal working ours then in the long run it's going to fail. Simple as.

I agree 100%. Most people can't see that. A well managed project shouldn't need overtime. If its happening on a repeated basis then theres a problem somewhere. Its just not sustainable in the long run.

nesf wrote:

...It assumes all people are alike. Some people can work a 60 hour week indefinitely without ill effects. Others find a 20 hour week stressful. Depends on the job obviously. But it really isn't something that works very well when you generalise out to try and cover everybody. In my opinion. Still, he makes some good points.

Indefinitely? I doubt it.

I think the point about Productivity drops comes into focus there. If you were having surgery, or a long distance flight. Would you prefer the person in charge to be at the start or the end of their 60hr week? Same applies to any job.

nesf

RicardoSmith wrote:

Consider it by the hourly rate. You actually working for less (per hour) on your overtime than in normal hours. If you devalue yourself you'll pay for it in the long run. Why would someone pay you more when they know you'll work for less. Any employer would be mad, not to use that to their advantage. Come time salary review, thats going to go against you.

But for a worker worker who is already stuck in the higher tax bracket, it means they will be earning more per hour than normal. (this assumes an hourly wage btw)

Overtime is double edged sword and depends totally on the industry you are in. In some industries it's a requirement that you be available for overtime (unspoken obviously) in others overtime is a rare thing. In a salary job, overtime is a bitch generally. Some companies will squeeze as many hours as they can out of you. Some will appreciate it and remember that you were willing to put in the effort that was needed when it was required.

Personally, I prefer to just put in 40-45 hours and take the wage i'm happy to be earning. But I know other people who love overtime and love having a bit extra in their pay packet at the end of the week/month.

RicardoSmith wrote:

I agree 100%. Most people can't see that. A well managed project shouldn't need overtime. If its happening on a repeated basis then theres a problem somewhere. Its just not sustainable in the long run.

That's a very naive view of work. I've known plenty companies that had to have overtime on projects because there was no other way to complete them. Think a busy workshop floor here and guys coming in on Saturday for a full day to fix an emergency job or similar.

If you get, for instance, a rush job that's very important arriving on Friday when it needs to be done and sent up on Monday, then there isn't really much option but overtime. (I'm thinking of certain industries here, mostly engineering and overhaul of industrial stuff.)

I agree, with long term, well managed internal projects then yes, it shouldn't happen. But quite a few industries need to work to the clients timetable which doesn't make this possible. A client's expectations can be very high or unreasonable, but hey, they are working to their own timetable etc etc. The thing is, the client will be billed for overtime hours, so the company doesn't lose out by paying overtime.

RicardoSmith wrote:

Indefinitely? I doubt it.

I think the point about Productivity drops comes into focus there. If you were having surgery, or a long distance flight. Would you prefer the person in charge to be at the start or the end of their 60hr week? Same applies to any job.

To any job? Really? I agree productivity drops, but workers are rarely operating at full productivity unless it's a job they love or it's a very special company. In manual work/general operative work, then productivity isn't going to be high anyway. You get what you pay for (well, with Irish people anyways).

RicardoSmith

In some jobs you might have to work outside of normal hours but you get the time back somewhere else. Work Sun but get monday off instead. Overtime is when you have to work more than the standard working week, and you get paid more for it. Hence "Over" "time" over the normal time.


Personally I've never been in a company where they "remembered" the extra effort and rewarded it. So I'm completely cynical of anyones motives for it now. Usually its starts off as a rare occurance, but after a while it becomes expected and you find you are doing it every day. Thats just taking advantage. One place I worked in last summer, had everyone working 10-12 hours every day all week, and then working sat and sun aswell. I was told it wasn't a usual occurance when I joined but then discovered that they'd been working like that for as long as anyone remembered. I did a few extra hours and even came in one Sat, but I realised it was poor project managment causing everything to be done at rushed pace and it was just increasing the amount of work as more mistakes were made which then had to be fixed etc. It was a increasing spiral which they weren't going to get out of. I left, I wasn't interested in working 24/7 and then at the end of it you'd get squat and the MD would give himself a bunch of share options.


A rush job is a rushed. If it can't be done in the allocated time it should be reschuled not "rushed". If you want to have a client list that can't time manage their projects, then you're only got youself to blame for that. Theres no quality of life in working like that.

full productivity? Your missing the point. Once people get tired they work less productively than they usually do. (whatever level that is) You're still paying them the same amount but they are producing less. So any business man will tell you thats bad business.

Earthhorse

I remember coming in one Saturday in order to get some work done and help meet a client deadline. I got paid a lousy 50 bucks for my trouble. This was in the late 90's. 50 bucks wasn't worth much, even then. I took a look around and realised no one was going to thank me for my trouble. No one was going to slap me on the back and say, "Hey, this'll count for something in your next review".

And I also realised that all the others - everyone who was working late and coming in early and doing weekends on a regular basis - would get no more thanks than me. They only remember the work you haven't done.

http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/buk.letters.html#martin86