22-250 for deer

Rovi

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move subject from After Hours ' should guns/ bloodsports be fully legalised in ireland?' thread
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psittacosis wrote:

have to disagree with you there rovi my father used a .22/250 to hunt deer with and any deer he shot dropped i think its a mater of the shooters ability to hit where he's aiming the person he sold the rifle to dropped a deer at 475 yards with the gun

I don't doubt that the 22-250 has been (and will continue to be) used effectively on deer, but I'm of the opinion that it's a bit on the light side.

Winchester and a few other ammunition manufacturers have numbering system to grade the suitability of their products on the range of game that hunters may go after. Winchester call theirs the CXP system.
Here's a page explaining how it works.
Winchester don't rate ANY of their 22-250 offerings as CXP2 (Light Game), while Federal list 2 rounds, but they're pretty specialised loads with fancy bullets, neither of which I've seen for sale here.

In jurisdictions with much better availability of calibres/ammunition than here, the 22-250 (and .220 Swift, and .223 Rem, among others) is considered a varmint round, and is loaded with lightweight (40-60 gr.) 'fragile' bullets.
Light Game (deer, in our case) is hunted using bigger calibres (.243, 25-06, .270, 30-06, 7mm, etc) pushing heavier bullets (95-150 gr.)

Consider the sizes (adult weights: female-male) of the 3 species found in Ireland-
Sika 35-60Kg
Fallow 40-80Kg
Red 100-190 Kg

While I'd grudgingly accept an argument that 22-250 and the like might be adequate for Sika and Fallow (with suitable bullets and careful shot placement), I'd consider them woefully inappropriate for Red.

I know the stories are legion of 'hunters' taking all sorts of medium/big game with .22LR, but ethical hunting demands a swift and humane dispatch for the prey animal, and I'd be strongly of the opinion that this mandates using 'enough gun' when one goes hunting.
I also know that poachers will go after anything with a .22LR or a 12 gauge, but 'ethical hunting' isn't exactly high on their job description.



psittacosis, with regard to the 475 yard deer the new owner of your father's rifle got, that's a hell of a shot.
According to my ballistics software, the bullet would have dropped almost 50 inches at that range (to say nothing of wind drift!), and would have fallen to around 500 FT-LBS of energy, about double the energy of a high-velocity .22LR at the muzzle.
Placing a bullet into the vital area (brain, spine, heart/lungs) of a deer at that range is a terrific achievement, my congratulations to the shooter. :rolleyes:




/edited to add-
just finished composing this epic, and I find a similar thread has been locked. Apologies to the Mods if I've resurrected contentious stuff, please delete this if you feel it's appropriate.


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civdef

It's not the subject of the thread that's contentious, the usual "hunting is bad" slog it degenerated into did it.

Anyway, .22-250 can do the job if used very carefully, but why bother these days when there's so many better calibres out there?

Rovi

Fair enough, my point exactly.

Oh, and I put a 'Roll Eyes' smiley into my first post in case anyone missed what I was getting at.


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Umiq88

i dont know much about the bigger rifle calibres but i know 22/250 can be bought cheaply and is a great gun for foxes and rabbits as well

Rovi

psittacosis wrote:

... but i know 22/250.... is a great gun for foxes and rabbits as well

And that's exactly what it's best suited for.
Though you won't have much rabbit left for the stew if you're shooting for the pot.

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Umiq88

Well my father used his for foxes and rabbits as well he never shot a huge amount of deer with it

macnas

Only ever shot foxes with a 22-250 so don't know what it's like for deer, 55gr is a very light bullet though. I use a .243 100gr for deer, Sika, Fallow, no problem but Reds are a different story. I won't even attempt a heart/lung shot, you could be folowing him for hours. Although I have to say the biggest Red stag I have ever seen in my life was shot with a .22-250. headshot of course.

Umiq88

its pretty much down to bullet placement my father got a book on the anatomy of a deer and found there is quite a big section of bone at the top of the spine and he used to hit them there every time any bone that was hit would shatter and the deer hadn't a hope

just googled this


can also be seen here

Ammoman

psittacosis wrote:

its pretty much down to bullet placement my father got a book on the anatomy of a deer and found there is quite a big section of bone at the top of the spine and he used to hit them there every time any bone that was hit would shatter and the deer hadn't a hope

just googled this


can also be seen here

At the top of the Spine , you mean the head ? or above the scapula ?

Flattop 15

Ya know it's funny.I was up in Emo today chatting with the folks who put together this stalking test that we will be doing :rolleyes:Be ready for a good enough long read! The target we will be proably shooting at will be deer[whitetail] with a bullseye target on it!Dunno about you folks,but i have never seen a deer with that skin pattern.
I asked them why not consider these three dimensional targets.A pic of the deer,under that the pic of the vital organs,finally a pic of the skeleton.You overlap all three,shoot the target,and then you can see what you hit,in skin,vital organs and bones.You then can judge MUCH better if you had a clean kill,an injury or a compleate miss.Which kind of makes INMHO rather than shooting a 10X target.At least you could then be asked what you would do with that shot placement,in pursuit etc.Anyway,the deer folks had never heard of these targets!And were amazed that such existed!!One wonders how much advice did they take on this??

Shot placement should be above the front scapula[in the pic below it looks like a grey mass].The Germans call it Blattschuss[trans lit leaf shot].A hit there will shatter the spine and scapula.Thats for a standing shot.A running or crossing shot,aim in front of the chest,you are trying for a heart shot.

Macnas,when you shot that red in the head was there any head left to mount?

You could shoot muntjac and roe deer once starting with 22 hornet,and 223
Sika and Fallow 243 with very heavy bullets.For red minimum should be the 6.5 Swedish[The Swedes have been dropping Moose with these for generations]But preferbly 308 for me.

Ammoman,
A thought in your pistol application.You could also give good reason for wanting the pistol as a Coup de grace giver for deer hunting,as you are a stalker,and on the Continent a pistol is considerd mandatory big game hunting kit.Might be worth a try.

Ammoman

Flattop 15 wrote:

Ammoman,
A thought in your pistol application.You could also give good reason for wanting the pistol as a Coup de grace giver for deer hunting,as you are a stalker,and on the Continent a pistol is considerd mandatory big game hunting kit.Might be worth a try.

Thanks for the idea , but is it ok per the wildlife act ??? Is the word Rifle not specified ??? or are there any provisions for making Humane Shot ???

Umiq88

@ammoman

sorry its not at the top of the spine its on the shoulder where the front leg comes up where theres alot of bone

Ammoman

psittacosis wrote:

@ammoman

sorry its not at the top of the spine its on the shoulder where the front leg comes up where theres alot of bone

That would be classed as a spinal shot , not the perfered option , the Boilerhouse shot ( Heart / Lung ) is a far more accepted shot and will kill the animal. The spinal shot usually means that you have to finnish off the animal when you get to it , yes it drops like a stone but not dead...

Flattop 15

Ammoman wrote:

Thanks for the idea , but is it ok per the wildlife act ??? Is the word Rifle not specified ??? or are there any provisions for making Humane Shot ???

The wildlife act doesnt have any mention of handguns,just of rifles of the "appropriate "calibre.Considering when this was drawn up it was 1976,four years into the TCO. You could argue that if you hunted in very dense forestry where a rifle would be a hinderance that a handgun would be more convient and possibly safer alternative,so long as it is in the prescribed or above calibres.I would think a 357 or 44 mag would be a good deer dropper.Or you could always get a Thompson center/contender single shot carbine,in the appropriate calibre,which can then be also converted to a pistol as well.[
Two Allen bolts,a short barrell,and a handgrip]There is no legislation here dealing with actual rifle barrel length,just smoothbores,so you could have a so called short barrelled rifle[US term] of 12 ins or less,with a shoulder stock and still have a "rifle".That would give them somthing to think about.

But no, there is no provision for a humane shot situation either.I wouldnt want to do it with a rifle either,and unless you have been taught a correct way of dispatching a deer with a knife,and have a large blade with to do it,it is a difficult and dangerous operation.Plus the fact deer,wont lie down conviently in the open when injured they will head for dense cover,thussly making a rifle even more cumbersome to do the job.All in all tied in with the firearms acts the wildlife act is just another SNAFU. Burrocrats not understanding the conditions that can prevail in the field,along with bad gun laws.
I am actually amazed that the antis ,pre release of large calibre deer rifles,didnt protest deer hunting more stringently because some of the calibres we were allowed in the TCA time,just were NEVER suitable for deer.Where they could have shut us down on animal cruelty.
Also there was a professional stalker who won this very arguement in the UK,for his right to posses still a handgun under the above reason as a humane killer[unmodified as well ASFIK].
So you could justifibly try this tack as well,when you get talking to your legal counsel and Super.Do set a precedent for us.

Ammoman

I will discuss this option with the Super ...... IF I ever get to see him, last week He was away , supposed to be back today , and surprise Surprise , he's away all this week as well . how does anything get done in his district ???????? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Flattop 15

Hmmm.Do the words "fobbing you off" come to mind here??? :mad:

Ammoman

Flattop 15 wrote:

Hmmm.Do the words "fobbing you off" come to mind here??? :mad:

Apparantly not , he is on a course , If you could beleive that !!! :eek: hopefully one that shows him how to grant a pistol licence

Umiq88

kilkenny's not much better went in 3 different times and wasnt there on "rest" days and they said she'd be there days she wasnt anyway got the licence so dont care dont think its fair they should be allowed act like that it is a public service after all

Ammoman

psittacosis wrote:

kilkenny's not much better went in 3 different times and wasnt there on "rest" days and they said she'd be there days she wasnt anyway got the licence so dont care dont think its fair they should be allowed act like that it is a public service after all

I think that this subject deserves another thread on its own ,because it is off topic of the orignal question .