How the hell does someone get insured in this ridiculous country on a bike?

J-blk

Ok,

So, after living in Ireland for 5 years and being bikeless, carless, etc, I've decided to take the plunge and get myself a bike again (I really, really don't want a car)....

So, off to the bank for a loan and I was planning on getting a Suzuki DL 650 2005 model... Now, I hold a full A licence from an EU member state but can't transfer no claims bonuses.... I'm 27 BTW.... I called Carole Nash and they gave me some sh*t about changing my licence and that it may be only a provisional and crap like that... How is this even legal? If you hold an EU member licence, the idea is that it's the SAME in all member states and is a common "model" so it does not need to be changed....

AON on the other hand won't even quote me on that bike (it's a group 9) and they do not recognize restrictions other than factory restrictions so....

Therefore, if you come from any other EU country and want to ride a bike, you are truly f****d - go get a car.... And then they complain about traffic congestion - Morons...

tk123

Well why don't you find out abt the licence first and then ring the brokers etc so they don't try and rip you off!?

J-blk

Because - why should the licence even need to be changed? The purpose of a unified model is exactly that. Worse even if they want to change a full A to a provisional? That's garbage.

That was only CN by the way - AON didn't give a rip about what licence I had, they simply would not quote me - at all.

So great going - all this simply encourages people like me to go home for a holiday, buy the bike there (it will be cheaper), insure it and bring it over here. Technically, this is illegal (after 6 months, the bike would need to be changed to an Irish licence plate, etc) but have you noticed the amount of vehicles out there on foreign licence plates/insurance policies? I assure you quite a few have been here more than six months.... It's only my fault for trying to do this the "right" way I guess...

tk123

how long have you had the full licence!?

seamus

Check the following page to see if your licence is issued by an accepted State:
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/exchanging_foreign_driving_permit.html

If it is, then you are under no obligation to exchange your licence, it's perfectly valid for the purpose of insurance, and Carole Nash cannot legally refuse to insure you on those grounds.

J-blk

I've had my licence since 1997....

And yes, it is from one of the original 15 EU member states so it can be used? CN was saying that the quote would depend on what my licence gets exchanged for, either a provisional or full A (they gave two different quotes, depending on what I get) - but then, this is invalid, since I should not need to exchange my licence.

Seamus - thanks for that link - it seems to have a lot of good info right there. I might take the plunge and exchange the licence though I am kinda worried about this whole provisional/full mess. It also seems I need a medical check up and stuff, so that's a lot of hassle and time off work for something that should not be exchanged to start with.

Beruthiel

J-blk wrote:

Because - why should the licence even need to be changed? ..

it shouldn't
perhaps they are talking sh!te?
my b/f is french, he has a full french driving licence, he had no problem getting a car and insurance on that licence.
All he was required to do was get a letter from the insurance company he used to use in france confirming his no claims bonus. Then he had to hire a translator to confirm what the letter said in english (that part was a pain in the arse) especially as I could have translated it myself

J-blk

I'm pretty sure they don't really know what they are talking about - but with only two competitors in the bike market in Ireland (Hibernian will be gone soon) and AON refusing to insure me on my bike of choice, CN is my only option so I would have to put up with their bull...

People are probably wondering why I don't just buy something smaller - thing is, I really have no intention of changing bikes in the next few years and that's why I'm buying new anyway. I just can't understand why I have to jump through hoops for the bloody insurers, when at the end of the day, I'll be paying through the roof anyway (in case you have been wondering, on a full A licence, CN offers a quote a 1800 more or less for TPO only - brilliant... ). But I was prepared for that and took into account.

What I haven't taken into account is this whole situation of getting the licence changed (and if they give me a provisional for example - where does this leave me if I give up and go back home?) and having to spend time/money/extra effort to get the "priviledge" of paying massive amounts of money to an insurer.

It's even been suggested to me by people that I should just drive around without insurance and hope for the best... Of course, last thing I want is to give more arguments to those morronic insurers to raise their premiums so I would never do this. It seems to me though that moving to Ireland means yu can kiss certain "luxuries" like driving goodbye...

Beruthiel

J-blk wrote:

What I haven't taken into account is this whole situation of getting the licence changed (and if they give me a provisional for example - where does this leave me if I give up and go back home?)

a provisional is of no use to you once you are outside ireland, I would suggest to you that you ring them back and ask for a manager or go into an office and talk to them face to face, which is always better - you don't say which country you are from but if it's france, then you definately do not need to get a provisional!

seamus

J-blk wrote:

People are probably wondering why I don't just buy something smaller - thing is, I really have no intention of changing bikes in the next few years and that's why I'm buying new anyway. I just can't understand why I have to jump through hoops for the bloody insurers, when at the end of the day, I'll be paying through the roof anyway (in case you have been wondering, on a full A licence, CN offers a quote a 1800 more or less for TPO only - brilliant... ). But I was prepared for that and took into account.

What age are you? (Just that you said you needed a medical cert)

(and if they give me a provisional for example - where does this leave me if I give up and go back home?)

They won't - if it's an EU country, it's a straight swop like for like. You shouldn't even have to change it. Demand a letter of Carole Nash detailing exactly why they are refusing you insurance and bring it to the Insurance Ombudsman (?). It is a long road, and it might seem like less hassle to just jump through the hoops particularly if you're bikeless, so I wouldn't push you either way

Alun

I agree, they're talking out of their collective @rses.

Since you can exchange an EU licence for an Irish licence any time you like, they are exactly equivalent. You should ring them again and challenge them to tell you what exactly it is about exchanging one piece of paper for another that suddenly makes you a better driver and therfore a better risk !!!

I have a Dutch licence and have had no problems getting insured (for a car, that is). Anyway, it started off as a UK licence, then became Dutch, then German and then Dutch again over the course of 30 years or so, so the licence you have now doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what you originally got when you passed your test.

As for no claims bonusses, I just got my Dutch insurance company to write me a letter in English. Shouldn't be a problem for any insurance company in the EU I would have thought.

Beruthiel

seamus wrote:

What age are you?

J-blk wrote:

I'm 27 BTW...

J-blk

Well - I did call them back....

After being put on hold for ages, I got their reply that by law I can only drive on my EU licence in Ireland for 1 year and then it has to be changed according to the licencing laws - can't tell what's going on....

Since my main problem is that I'm stuck with CN (at least with a car you have more options - hence why people's experiences are different) so I'm just going to go for it - I plan on being in Ireland for awhile and I've already been here for 5 years.

As for the medical cert - the page seamus linked to has me slightly confused. Do I only need that if I'm 70 then (kinda blurry in that paragragh)? This is the real pain cause I'd like to skip this.

If I don't need it, is it a matter of going into the Licencing Office with my current licence, the 2 photos and those two other applications that are required and of course, case ?

Anyone know where the Licencing Office is and what their working hours are?

Beruthiel

J-blk wrote:

Anyone know where the Licencing Office is and what their working hours are?

you could start here, give them a call and see if there is one near to where you live:

Motor Tax and Licence Office River House, Chancery Street, Dublin 1 (Driving Licences) Tel 00 353 1 00353 1 + 8899222 or 00353 1 + 8899222 or 00353 1 + 4933411

/EDIT
oh oh
look what I just found!

New Resident Information
New European Union residents to Ireland may drive without having to exchange a driving licence for an Irish one until it expires However, as a resident of Ireland it would be expected that it would be handed in to Irish licence authorities and exchanged for an Irish driving licence when due for renewal . Below is a list of countries that Ireland exchange current driving licences with as of Dec 1st 2000. Should your country not be listed please contact the listed telephone numbers Further information may be had from Motor Tax & Licences Office River House, Chancery Street, Dublin 1 Tel 00353 1 + 8899222 or 00353 1 + 4933411

Valid in Ireland & EC.

Must Be Exchanged Within One Year of Taking Up Residence
Country Code
A Austria
Aus Autralia
B Belgium
GBZ Gibraltar
DK Denmark
IS Iceland
Fin Finland
GBM Isle of Man
F France
J Japan
D Germany
GBJ Jersey
GR Greece
FL Liechtenstein
I Italy
N Norway
L Luxembourg
ZA South Africa
NL Netherlands
ROK South Korea
P Portugal
CH Switzerland
E Spain
S Sweden
GB United Kingdom

Information for Drivers from Abroad.
In general all drivers of category B must be at least 17 years of age. Provisional licences are available to those over the age of 17 years however, you must produce a birth certificate and two passport sized photographs to the relevant licensing authority in Ireland in order to obtain a provisional licence (learners permit). Ireland issues the European directive on the tree-fold photo style licence therefore you must supply two passport sized photographs.

The photo of the licence holder is included and the licence is detailed with individualised categories of the licensee contained within. In Ireland it is not as yet, necessary to carry your driving licence with you as you have ten days to produce it however, it is advisable to carry it with you for production on demand by a member of the Garda Siochana (the Irish police)

If learning to drive in Ireland you must hold a current Irish provisional licence for the category licence you wish to learn to drive and display a red L Plate which must conform to legal obligations and displayed front and rear of the vehicle. Learner drivers in general must be accompanied with a full licence holder within the same category however, Ireland operates a system whereby second provisional licence holders may drive unsupervised. The holders of provisional licences for category B and A & A1 are not normally allowed to drive on Motorways. Further information may be had from Vehicles and Licences& Motor Tax Office River House, Chancery Street, Dublin 1 Tel 00 353 1 8899222, 00353 1 + 4933411

http://www.dir.ie/safedriving/safe1.htm

J-blk

Thanks Beruthiel - I actually work with your French b/f BTW...

Well, the document you attached confirms CN's claim in my case:

Must Be Exchanged Within One Year of Taking Up Residence

And Greece is listed... which is were my licence was issued.

I'll try the licencing office and see if I can get it swapped over - according to everyone's input (thanks to all BTW), it should be swapped to a full A, which I currently hold. And I'm thinking I misread that med cert thing after all...

seamus

Yeah, the med cert is only required in certain circumstances:
If you are over 70, you have a declared medical condition, or if you are applying for anything larger than a car

IIRC. You shouldn't need one for a bike unless you fit one of the first two categories.

As a matter of interest, did Carole Nash say they'd insure you (since your licence is legally valid for a year) or did they insist that you swop it?

Alun

J-blk wrote:

Well - I did call them back....

After being put on hold for ages, I got their reply that by law I can only drive on my EU licence in Ireland for 1 year and then it has to be changed according to the licencing laws - can't tell what's going on....

Complete bull**** ... this was changed years ago, and the information on the DIR website that someone quoted is out of date. You can exchange your licence any time you like, but you don't have to until it expires.

J-blk

They seemed to insist that I swap it and they - I think - are going on the same, possibly outdated info as the site linked above.

As I said, with the no competion state, I might just go get it swapped and get this over with.

I get a slightly cheaper quote online with Hibernian though, so I'm thinking if it's worth going for that (does the online quote mean no human interaction with some muppet then), changing the licence when it suits better down the line (within this year) and try to swap over to CN (or hopefully more competion) next year? Any experiences with Hibernian's online quotation system for bikes?

Beruthiel

J-blk wrote:

Thanks Beruthiel - I actually work with your French b/f BTW...

lol
I wondered about that, he did mention that someone he works with was thinking of getting a 650 bike

J-blk

This is indeed a SMALL country ...

a_ominous

Hi J-blk
I didn't need a medical check, just eyetest report when applying for original car licence about 20 years ago. Medical I believe is only for over 70yo.

Carole Nash gave different quotes for provisional and full licence? Wow!, that's a change. I'm with them now, but they don't seem to load provisional licence holders which is part of the reason why we have so many provisional licence holders.

Just on the point of exchanging your licence: if you were here temporarily, you don't have to exchange it as you've already heard. I believe the reason for exchanging the licence is so that penalty points can be applied if necessary. There is no pan-EU driving licence database, which means if you get points on your Irish driving licence, you could leave the county and go back to Greece with your original licence unsullied by Irish penalty points. And conversely, if you had points from another country, they do not apply here. I think the question on insurance form is "do you have penalty points on your licence?" which only covers your IRISH driving licence.

seamus

J-blk wrote:

I get a slightly cheaper quote online with Hibernian though, so I'm thinking if it's worth going for that (does the online quote mean no human interaction with some muppet then), changing the licence when it suits better down the line (within this year) and try to swap over to CN (or hopefully more competion) next year? Any experiences with Hibernian's online quotation system for bikes?

It shouldn't be a problem. Hibernian don't quote for bikes over the phone anymore. As long as you enter the correct details, you're sorted.

Be quick though, Hibernian are leaving the motorcycle market. You won't be able to get a new policy after 1st July, and you won't be able to renew that policy next year, so you'll end up with Carol Nash anyway. But if it's cheaper, and to save a headache, I'd advise it.

Alun

J-blk wrote:

They seemed to insist that I swap it and they - I think - are going on the same, possibly outdated info as the site linked above.

Here's a slightly more athoritative source than the one on www.dir.ie (The Irish Driving Instructor's Register!)

http://www.transport.ie/roads/licensing/licence/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1836#Exchange_Driving_Licence

EDIT: Here's another one from the EU website for good measure ...

http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/home/drivinglicence/faq/002_en.htm

It's surprising how many people, Gardai included, are still under the misapprehension that EU licences still have to be exchanged. Unfortunately many websites out there, including those of many County Councils, either haven't been updated in ages or have the explanation worded as if it was written by a two-year-old.

J-blk

Yeah, I heard about the Hibernian thing which is frustrating as well but I would be appliying for insurance in the next week so I should be good for a year.

In the meantime, I could always go and exchange my licence and avoid future hassle as I'll be stuck with CN more than likely (and funnily, yes, I did get different provisional and full licence quotes so go figure). And I'm here "permanently" as far as I can see right now so I guess I might as well do that....

Alun, I think you're quite correct that I don't really need to change it and even the insurer's info is out of date - however, at the end of the day, I just want to get back to riding a bike and not have to deal with all this bureaucratic crap.

As for the website pages.... the link seamus originaly posted actually reads:

"An application for a driving licence is made to your local Motor Taxation Office and should be accompanied by the following:

Two identical passport-type photographs, with the reverse of both signed by you
Your current or most recently issued driving licence (if you hold or held one in the previous 10 years) or your current or most recently issued provisional licence (if you hold or held one in the previous five years).
A medical report. You will need a completed medical report form D.501 if you are applying for a driving licence for categories C, C1, D1, D, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED. You do not need this if you have previously provided a medical report that is still applicable.
A medical report is compulsory for any category if you will be 70 years of age or more on the first day of the period for which the licence is being issued, suffer from any of the disabilities or diseases listed on the D.401 form, suffer from epilepsy or alcoholism or regularly take drugs or medication that are likely to impair your ability to drive safely. A registered practitioner should carry out your medical examination and then complete the form.
You must sign the Declaration on the medical report form in the presence of the registered medical practitioner.
A Certificate of Competency (if you have recently passed a driving test).
The appropriate fee".

Then it goes on to say it's only compulsory if you're over 70 - that's what got me a bit confused but it seems I don't need it.

I'll probably go the online Hibernian way for now then (if only EVERYTHING like this could be done online....) worry about the changeover in a few months time...

But I'm sure the exchange is not truly necesarry as Alun points out - this is almost as ridiculous as asking me to get a visa when staying in Ireland. I don't need one, cause I'm from the EU and in the same way, this applies to licences... I know that, you guys know that, but getting CN to acknowledge that is a completely different matter...

RainyDay

J-blk wrote:

So great going - all this simply encourages people like me to go home for a holiday, buy the bike there (it will be cheaper), insure it and bring it over here. Technically, this is illegal (after 6 months, the bike would need to be changed to an Irish licence plate, etc) but have you noticed the amount of vehicles out there on foreign licence plates/insurance policies? I assure you quite a few have been here more than six months.... It's only my fault for trying to do this the "right" way I guess...

It's not just illegal - they are driving without insurance. If they lie on their insurance form (i.e. state that their main residence is France while they are actually living in Ireland), their insurance contract is not valid. If there is a claim, the insurance company will be very quick to find ways to wiggle out of paying and leaving the uninsured driver to face the consequences. Same applies to all those little darlings who are supposedly 'named drivers' on mummy's car but are actually the main driver. And all those from outside the pale who insure their car at their original address but actually live in Dublin.

mobpd

Hey
Here's what I did - took out a provisional bike licence here - bought a 500cc restricted bike - had some lessons - applied for and took my FULL cat A bike test in the UK on my FULL UK driving licence (after doing their CBT and theory test) - passed and now have added Bike cat A to my car UK driving licence - rang BIkeCare and said that I now had a full UK licence - they asked me to fax a copy - then hooray! my insurance was reduced.
Have no intention of swapping my UK licence for an Irish one.
Also had cause to present it at Garda station following an accident (not my fault) - no questions asked or comments made about having to exchange it.
mobpd

kermit_ie

Whatever you do, don't get an Irish licence - you're leaving your self open for such nastiness as Penalty Points if you do

Oryx

J-blk wrote:

This is indeed a SMALL country ...

Ive pm,d you, it might help...

Biker.ie

Might be an idea to get a duplicate Greek licence before/if you surrender yours, just purely to avoid all this bull$h|t red-tape (and p.points?) in future.

J-blk

Yep - I know it's illegal to ride around on foreign insurance hence why I haven't done it....

As for not exchanging the licence, that would be ideal probably - I can just imagine the Gardai taking a look at my licence and going "It's all Greek to me!" .

Point seems to be though that with insurance here, the more honest you are with them, the more you get screwed over.... Still, I so miss having a bike...

Oh, and just for the ultimate saddening part:

If you do the math (I'm 27 and got a full licence in 97, when I was 19. There was no A1 until 1999) and then consider that I used to drive a KLE 500 at that age for 300 Euro a year, then you realize just how bad it is here...

tk123

thats why it's called "Ripoff Ireland"!!!!

Alun

Biker.ie wrote:

Might be an idea to get a duplicate Greek licence before/if you surrender yours, just purely to avoid all this bull$h|t red-tape (and p.points?) in future.

Nice try, but by surrendering his Greek licence it becomes invalid, and the Greek authorities (in principle) would be informed. In any case, when he goes back he's perfectly entitled to drive on his Irish licence until it expires too, just as he can quite legally drive here on his Greek licence.

echomadman

I had the same problem with AON, they refused to quote me on an SV650(same engine) unless i got a grade 2 pass in one of their approved training courses. as its too powerful a bike (~70hp) and they dont recognise the non-factory restrictor, ok i only passed my irish test last week but wtf, the SV and DL are considered beginner bikes in the rest of the world.

CN insured me no questions asked, 980 for the year but not too bad considering i paid 780 last year for my 250 bandit.
As a amtter of interest what are CN quoting for the DL?

J-blk

echomadman - CN is looking for around the 1800 mark on the DL 650 and AON simply refused to quote me on anything above a group 6. The DL is a group 9 but can be restricted to a 5. However, as AON does not recognize that restriction, there's no point really. The DL is only 68hp to my knowledge as it may be the SV engine but it is after all only a tourer.... And yes, in most of the western world, the 650cc bike is entry to mid level. As I mentioned, I started on a 500 anyway...

echomadman

1800? you're in dublin or its environs so, thats crazy. Is it TPO, TPF&T or Comprehensive?.
The SV is grp 10 with aon, CN use different groupings, it is the same engine but the DL is tuned for more low end torque. I dont understand why aon are being such **** about insuring people, its no wonder people just go out and drive uninsured with the bullshít you have to go through to be legal.
Hibernian are still offering quotes up to the end of july, what are their prices like.

J-blk

That's TPO in all cases.... And yep, I'm in Dublin indeed (er... look at my user name ID, etc).

AON just flat out refused as I said, unless I get under a group 6 (cause yeah, I can't kill myself on that if I was a lame driver, right?).

Hibernian online gives me a 1700 quote which is the best yet but I'm afraid of what happens next year. When they pull out, will CN still be giving me trouble and AON just refuse me cover?

It's all been said before I guess, but I find it hilarious on Hibernian's online system, that once I hit 30, my cover costs are almost halved. Cause yes, on my 30th birthday I will be imbued with special safe rider powers. Sure...

Rippy

I Have full UK licence(groups A and B )issued in 2000. This is an EEC model so I have no plans to exchange it until it's expiry in 2010. I have had no problems insuring cars and bikes since I have been here. I am currently with Carole Nash for the bike, they accepted my licence without question.
If they are refusing your EEC (Greek) licence, but accepting EEC (UK) licences that is surely discrimatory and in breach of EEC rules?
Do not accept it! Go to the top talk to a senior manager , if no joy see the insurance ombudsman.

echomadman

yeah, its a bummer, AON's quote for me on the sv if i did go and jump through all their hoops was still higher than carole nash's.
I'd go with Hib for the moment, then next year you'll have 1 years NCB under your belt (hopefully) that should help. and the whole license confusion may be easier to get through.

s10

kermit_ie wrote:

Whatever you do, don't get an Irish licence - you're leaving your self open for such nastiness as Penalty Points if you do

ive been caught twice (speeding)
both times i would swear i was not doing over 10 miles the limit
& now im really screwed for getting car insurance.
as my nice clear car licence is now ruined

J-blk

Rippy wrote:

I Have full UK licence(groups A and B )issued in 2000. This is an EEC model so I have no plans to exchange it until it's expiry in 2010. I have had no problems insuring cars and bikes since I have been here. I am currently with Carole Nash for the bike, they accepted my licence without question.
If they are refusing your EEC (Greek) licence, but accepting EEC (UK) licences that is surely discrimatory and in breach of EEC rules?
Do not accept it! Go to the top talk to a senior manager , if no joy see the insurance ombudsman.

Yes, and the insurance ombudsman will jump through hoops for me - I think I might get somewhere if I push a lot harder but the point, I don't have the energy or time for this kinda crap. You have to do all this just to be able to pay them an unreasonable amount of money!

As it happens, consumers may have rights but getting companies to respect them is another story - you should see the trouble I'm having getting a refund from an IT retailer for their screw up. But that's a story for another - I'm feeling way too grumpy today...

Still, thanks to all the people with links and all kinds of information - there's definitely a lot there for me to look at.