Summons for illegal right turn...

jasonb

Hi all...

A few months ago I was driving through Dublin City Centre, and took an right turn, without realising you weren't allowed turn right there. It was nighttime, just after Christmas, and I really didn't notice the no right turn sign. I followed the cars in front of me, without realising they were all Taxis, who were allowed turn...

Anyhow, the Gardai were parked around the corner, and they stopped me. They took my details and Driver's License details, didn't ask for my Insurance Cert or anything like that. I told him I didn't realise that there was no right turn, and he said that there was a sign. At the end, he just said to be more careful in future, and didn't tell me anything else.

I thought that was that, but I just got a Summons today to appear in Court for 'Driving in Contravention of a "Must not turn right" traffic sign'. I've checked the Traffic Acts named ( Section 35(5) Road Traffic Act 1994, Section 102 Road Traffic Act 1961 - Amended by Section 23 Road Traffic Act 2002 ), and from what I can see, I'm being charged with not complying with a prohibtive traffic sign.

So, having never been summoned before, I'm looking for advice! I'm guilty in that I did break the law, even if I didn't realise it. Should I get a Solicitor? I assume I just plead guilty and hope for the best? According to those sections, I can be fined up to €800, and from what I can find out about Penalty Points, they don't seem to have come in yet for this offence. Any ideas what the fine might be like? If I plead guilty, do I then have a conviction on my record?

Any advice appreciated!!

J.

vasch_ro

firstlt you can get a solicitor although many would say that it would be a waste of money for something like this.
There is no way you will get fined anything near 800 euro for a first offence.
Turn up explain to the Judge what happened thats it. If you explain that it was a genuine mistake you may even get away with it !!

If you want to plead not guilty get a solicitor!

Check that there is sign !

Hotblack Desiato

vasch_ro wrote:

If you explain that it was a genuine mistake you may even get away with it !!

:rolleyes: what a wonderful country we live in... no wonder nobody takes any traffic law seriously

Curran

OH BOY - you're FU**ed


800 Euro Fine

2 Penalty Points

And a big dirty conviction on your name!!!!


Relax - wont be as bad as it first seems!! :cool:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Redshift

That's the stupidist thing I've ever seen go to court. NO wonder the legal system is clogged up. The worst I would have expected is a fixed penalty which would be fair enough; like you get for the more serious and dangerous offence of speeding.
Sounds like quota filling to me and TBH i'd be supprised if the guard even turns up in court.

Guy:Incognito

Redshift wrote:

That's the stupidist thing I've ever seen go to court. NO wonder the legal system is clogged up. The worst I would have expected is a fixed penalty which would be fair enough; like you get for the more serious and dangerous offence of speeding.
Sounds like quota filling to me and TBH i'd be supprised if the guard even turns up in court.

How can it be quota filling? If no one broke laws, how would they fill quotas then? Should the guards pick and choose which laws to enforce? If you saw someone doing something blatently in front of a guard and he did nothing, I bet you'd be at the top of the que to call the guard incompetent and question where our tax money is going.

heggie

Redshift wrote:

That's the stupidist thing I've ever seen go to court. NO wonder the legal system is clogged up. The worst I would have expected is a fixed penalty which would be fair enough; like you get for the more serious and dangerous offence of speeding.
Sounds like quota filling to me and TBH i'd be supprised if the guard even turns up in court.

i think taking an illegal turn is MUCH more dangerous than speeding (tho not excusing either). Ok fair enuff, taxi's were allowed so, presumably it was safe to do so, but what if it was onto a 1 way street, or totally agains the flow of traffic, could have caused a bad accident

jasonb

While I know I should have seen the sign ( and I've no problem paying a fine, fair's fair, I broke the law ) I have to agree that I think it's ridiculous going to court for this. Surely a fixed on the spot penalty is more appropiate? Going the wrong way down a one way street is dangerous, but as far as I was concerned, I was in the righh hand turn lane, and there were was traffic in front of me and behind me, all turning right. I just didn't notice that they were taxis and buses. I don't think what I did was dangerous in any way.

But apart from all that, and what's right and wrong, what's the practicalities here? If I plead guilty, do I still get to try to explain it to the Judge? Is it better to have a solicitor do that instead? How often does the Garda in question just not turn up, and what happens if they don't? Am I right in saying that penalty points aren't included for this? And if I do pay a fine, does it count as a conviction on my licence? All these questions...

J.

edmund_f

did you give a statement to the cop?. As far as i know, and open to be corrected here, cop has to take your statement, which can be entered into evidenceThen on the day, just read the signed statement. at the end of the day you are at the whim of the judge within the limits of statute book. you may get off scot free, you may get 'made an example of'

from what i can gather you are not trying to argue your innocence or guilt (right/wrong whatever), you just want advice?. my two cents would be get a signed statement witnessed by the cop in question, go to court (doubt a solicitor would be of any real use if you are pleading guilty, but go talk to one anyway) plan for the worst and be happy if you get less?.

jasonb

Definitely not trying to argue my guilt, I know I broke the law, and while I did it unwittingly, that's not an excuse.

Didn't give the Garda a statement as such. He said 'you know you've taken an illegal right turn', I told him that I didn't realise, he said 'there's a sign in place, it's been there for a couple of years', and I said I didn't know that, and then he took my drivers licence, asked me my correct address, took my Insurance and Tax details from the windscreen, then told me to be more careful in future, and that was that. So as far as I know, that's not any kind of statement, right?

J.

edmund_f

again, best get legal advice here, but i personally would get in contact directly with the cop, and try to give a statement, at least you will have it going into the court if nothing else

unkel

Redshift wrote:

That's the stupidist thing I've ever seen go to court. NO wonder the legal system is clogged up. The worst I would have expected is a fixed penalty which would be fair enough

Couldn't agree more - what a waste of time / money. OP, are you telling us everything? In my experience it is far more likely if you make a genuine minor mistake, admit it and be polite to the guard, you'd get a warning

Not a fine, let alone a summons...

Jip

Getting a solicitor is just a waste of money, it's not a debatable issue, you made an illegal right turn, you'll get a fine, it'll be nothing major.
I bet it was the right turn from Georges Street onto Dame Street ? If it was there's a few signs and I think you have to be in the bus lane too to make that right ! He could have done you for using the bus lane too.

the jew

Stekelly wrote:

Should the guards pick and choose which laws to enforce?

well in fairness, common sense should prevail. i mean im hardly gonna sleep better at night knowing that this guy got a fine for something stupid and then if some cúnt breaks into my house the gards won't turn up for ages or do anything about it when they do.

Esel

edmund_f wrote:

again, best get legal advice here, but i personally would get in contact directly with the cop, and try to give a statement, at least you will have it going into the court if nothing else

What would be the benefit of making a voluntary statement (admitting guilt?) in a case like this? I can't think of any.

Traffic

If it was on Georges St turning onto Dame St there are plenty of signs warning that this turn is indeed banned and yes you would of been driving in a bus lane too.

Many people seem not to know it is also illegal to make the left turn from Parnell square east onto Parnell St where u are also driving in a bus lane and the compulsory move is a right onto Parnell St except for buses taxis etc

edmund_f

i would imagine, given a reasonable judge that if you free and openly state the facts of what happened the the judge will be in a better position to determine guilt or innocence. If he has not given a statement, i would assume, that the file that he will be making his decision on will only contain infomation provided by the cop?.

I did not think guilt or innocence was on question here, just the sentence?

jasonb

Hi...

Don't worry, I'm not hiding any details of what happened, Unkel. I told the Garda that I was sorry, didn't realise there was no right turn. I wasn't impolite or anything like that. I thought he *had* just warned me, when he told me to be more careful next time, there was no mention of any follow up.

Yes, it was from George's St to Dame St. I'm not in the City Centre that often at all ( I live in Kildare ), but the next time I'm in there I'll have a look at the junction in the daytime, and see what the signs are like. He never mentioned anything to me about a Bus lane ( and neither does the summons ).

Anyhow, as Edmund says, it's nothing to do with Guilt / Innocence, I'm not denying I did it. I'm just asking what can I expect in Court? Should I get a solicitor? What's the punishment ( fine / penalty points etc. etc. ). Is it completely up to the Judge? Never got a summons before, so don't know what to expect at all...

J.

seamus

I wouldn't bother "getting" a solicitor, but perhaps just consult one to find out what you should expect when you're in court. He'll probably charge you for the consultation, but it would be a hell of a lot more if he acconpanied you to court.

Pretty much, your name will be called, you stand up and say you're guilty. Don't come up with an excuse, if the judge asks you to say anything in your defence, just say no, and apologise for your error.

unkel

jasonb wrote:

Yes, it was from George's St to Dame St

That makes a big difference!

1. as said, you were in the bus lane / taxi lane too!
2. that turn is very clearly signed as said
3. this is part of the new traffic flows around the city center and has been very well advertised / explained in the national newspapers
4. at the very start of the new flow, the gardai were out on the turn to guide traffic and get people's attention to the new flow
5. Even now, many people deliberately take a right, knowing full well it's illegal hence the increased Garda enforcement of compliance

As the others said, just plead guilty and pay the fine. Hopefully it's not too bad. Lesson learnt!

Let us know how you got on

css

You're not one of those headless muppets who go around ignoring signposts are you?? :eek:

jasonb

I try not to be! Honestly didn't see any signs. I know the fact that it was nighttime, and raining etc. etc. isn't any excuse ( 'cos I should just take my time more in those conditions ). I guess my mind was on trying to figure out how to get to where I was going, it's not a route I've used before.

General consensus seems to be not to bring a solicitor ( but maybe get advice from one ), plead guilty ( planning to do that anyhow ) and hope for the best? Any ideas if the judge can give me penalty points for this offence, and if I do plead guilty, and I'm fined, does it go down as a conviction ( cos I know Insurance companies probably won't like that! ).

J.

seamus

jasonb wrote:

Any ideas if the judge can give me penalty points for this offence, and if I do plead guilty, and I'm fined, does it go down as a conviction ( cos I know Insurance companies probably won't like that! ).

Penalty points aren't in force for the offence you are being charged with.
I know that it won't be added to your licence as a conviction, it's an offence, but I couldn't tell you the exact subtle legal jargon.

jasonb

That's a relief. So hopefully the worse I'm facing is a fine ( and hopefully I won't be made an example of! ).

Court Case isn't until middle of August, so I've a while to go yet...

J.

Turner

You will get a nominal fine, probably whatever the fine on the spot for that offence is.

Bring 50-100 quid to court with you.

And watch you mouth and attitude in court, remember the judge can impose anything up to a 800 Euro fine and or six months imprisonment if he so decides.

jasonb

Oh don't worry, I'll definitely behave myself. Like I said, I haven't been given a summons before, and don't intend to make my first time one to remember!! Thanks to everyone for their advice...

J.

prospect

A couple of thoughts on this,

1. I am sure you genuinely didn't realise you did wrong, but a fine should be issued, because it is one rule for everyone, and at the very least, it will teach you to be a bit more attentive.
2. You can't plead ignorance in a court of law.
3. Fixed fine deffo, this is a simple issue and shouldn't eat into court time.
4. A ex-colleague of mine was done for doing 40mph in a 30mph zone. He pointed out to the cop that there was no speed limit signs, (Which there wasn't as they had been removed for road widening) he photographed the road that evening with a disposable camera.
At court he represented himself and pleaded not guilty, think this was easy. The judge asked him to state his case, he said 'There were no signs indicating the legal limit' the judge asked the cop if there was a sign, and the cop replied one word 'Yes', the hammer went down and he received a £120 fine (double the fine if he had pleaded guilty.

My point is, just plead guilty.

HelterSkelter

The best a solicitor can do for you is tell the judge that you have no previous convictions, no penalty points, etc and anything else that might make the judge go a bit more linient on you. But you will probably get charged a couple of hundred euro for the privelage anyway so probably not worth it.

xzodia

you should be ok
probably only get a fine

something similar happened to me a few years ago was pulled over for not been far enouught behine the card in front of me when the light was amber as i past it, cop gave me a warning and told me to produce my documentation to a station in 10 days, did taht and a few months later got the summons for failing to produce insurance and for running a red light. went to court ready to plead not guilty on the insurance and the red light, got the insurance struck out and when asked about the red light informed the judge that it was amber when he pulled me over cop didnt turn up so judge threw it out, once you are polite and genuine the judge shouldnt hit you to hard

jasonb

What's the situation regarding the Garda not turning up? Is this a common occurence? If it happens, I guessing that you still go up in front of the Judge, but there's a good chance it'll be thrown out?

DubTony

jasonb wrote:

Honestly didn't see any signs.

Jason, after you plead guilty and pay the fine your next stop should be SpecSavers or Vision Express. :rolleyes:

Ok, maybe I'm being unfair. But the last time I was down that way the signs could be seen from Rathmines

jasonb

I agree Tony, need to keep an eye out for those things, I know I was in the wrong. I guess my initial shock was 'I'm going to court for turning right when I shouldn't have?' Especially cos it happened 6 months ago, and I had pretty much forgotten about it. Shouldn't the Gardai tell you if you're going to be summoned at the time? When someone says 'be more careful next time' to you, that sounds like a warning and nothing else to me...

the_syco

Traffic wrote:

If it was on Georges St turning onto Dame St there are plenty of signs warning that this turn is indeed banned and yes you would of been driving in a bus lane too.

2nd week of January, this year, whilst waiting for a mate nearby, I saw a car getting pulled over at least every 2 minutes by a copper. He just stood there. Sometime's he'd pull over one, and pull over another whilst talking to the 1st one.
The reason why that street is busses only, is because of traffic congestion. No cars, busses only, and the busses get out of the city quicker.

dahamsta

jasonb wrote:

What's the situation regarding the Garda not turning up? Is this a common occurence? If it happens, I guessing that you still go up in front of the Judge, but there's a good chance it'll be thrown out?

No chance, it just will. With simple traffic offences the Garda is the "evidence"; if there's no evidence, there's no case.

adam

unkel

dahamsta wrote:

With simple traffic offences the Garda is the "evidence"; if there's no evidence, there's no case.

I presume only when you plead "not guilty"? Would you know if the Garda isn't there before you have to plead?

dahamsta

unkel wrote:

I presume only when you plead "not guilty"? Would you know if the Garda isn't there before you have to plead?

It was a good while back when it happened to me so I can't remember for definite, but I'm pretty sure the case simply couldn't proceed without the Garda present. So yes, that would imply that a Garda has to present themself before a plea is entered, or the case is removed from the docket.

I was delighted when my Garda didn't show anyway, she was accusing me of being 40 over the limit in a 30, on her speedo, which I didn't believe and would have had to challenge. But it was my word against hers, it probably would have resulted in a hefty fine or an endorsement.

adam

daymobrew

I wonder if there is a way for you to pay a fine and avoid the inconvenience of going to court. It would save you time, and the State money.

Since it was so long ago, I wonder if a fine was sent out and since you didn't pay it (because you didn't get it), the next stage is a summons.

samo

daymobrew wrote:

I wonder if there is a way for you to pay a fine and avoid the inconvenience of going to court. It would save you time, and the State money.

Since it was so long ago, I wonder if a fine was sent out and since you didn't pay it (because you didn't get it), the next stage is a summons.

there's a similar thing in place for parking tickets alright...I got a parking ticket some years abck for €19 which I (deliberatly!) didnt pay as was in a rental car at the time so in my own mind figured it wouldnt come back on me...about 2 months on I got a summons in the post with a date to appear in court and everything but there was an option that if I paid double the fine..€38 then I didnt have to go to court. I duly paid the €38 cursing myself for not paying the €19 in the 1st place.

When I asked someone about it who'd be purports to be 'up' on these things about it afterwards, she suggested this is the normal course of action for traffic violations that do not incur penalty points.

Redshift

Stekelly wrote:

How can it be quota filling? If no one broke laws, how would they fill quotas then? Should the guards pick and choose which laws to enforce? If you saw someone doing something blatently in front of a guard and he did nothing, I bet you'd be at the top of the que to call the guard incompetent and question where our tax money is going.

Sorry I should have been clearer, I have no issues at all with the guards enforcing all of the road traffic laws infact I appluad them for doing so. My comment with regards quota filling referred only to the unnecessary act of dragging this driver to court when an on the spot fine or a stern ticking off or both would suffice. A court appearance ties up the legal system, the driver and the guard unnecessarily when they all could be doing more productive things.

vasch_ro

edmund_f wrote:

i would imagine, given a reasonable judge that if you free and openly state the facts of what happened the the judge will be in a better position to determine guilt or innocence. If he has not given a statement, i would assume, that the file that he will be making his decision on will only contain infomation provided by the cop?.

I did not think guilt or innocence was on question here, just the sentence?

Okay lets clear up a few things here, firstly in this country there is a presumption of Innonence , its the bedrock of our legal system .

The statement stuff is a load of crap. On the day in question in court there will be a callover of the cases on the list. Any case's that can be dealt with there and then, will be dealt with (normally where is a plea of guilty).
If there is a not guilty plea entered ( which even in this case u would be allowed to make ) the case gets put back on the list .Either way guilty or not guilty the Garda will get into the box , take the oath and give in his/her opinion what happened on the day , he will also be required to mention a legal proof or two in this case that it happened in a public place ( if not happy days ), if u plead guilty the judge may or may not ask u why u turned against the sign, if u plead not guilty you will be sworn into the box and then can give your side of the case
The judge then makes a decision. For a first offence where there was no immediate danger to any other road users a small fine will be the order of the day .

For a prosecution to occur the Garda concerned will have to be in court that day.There is no requirement to tell you whether you wll be prosecuted or not, although some may argue its good manners.

It is not always possible to issue a ticket on the spot for example some offences are not catered for with the ticket system, the driver may contest that he did anything wrong etc etc. To say that you are clogging up the courts by bringing a matter like this to court is silly . The courts are designed to hear cases like this , thats what they are for , if they cannot cope wit the volume or case load then that is a matter for the Court Service who should provide more courts!!

NUTLEY BOY

Worked in insurance claims in a previous life and saw this sort of nonsense periodically.

A general principle of criminal law is that a defendant cannot be guilty of an offence if they had no intention of doing the act. However, road traffic offences seem to fall into a special catergory where that nicety does not seem to apply. They seem to go on the basis that proof of commission of the wrongful act raises a presumption of guilt.

Onus of proof resting on the prosecution ! You wonder at times !!

This puts you in the unhappy position of having to prove your innocence ! In practical terms, you need to have a really good excuse if you are going to plead NOT guilty and hope for acquittal.

If you decide to plead guilty you save the prosecuting garda some work. However, I think that they will still need to give evidence of the facts to allow the judge to assess the seriousness or otherwise of your case.

If pleading guilty you just focus on mitigating facts to lighten the sentence. A good opening gambit might be to tell the "Justice" that you are very sorry but that you made a simple mistake. Explain your mitigating facts. Are you familiar with Dublin ? Heavy traffic volumes ? Concentrating on traffic and pedestrians in darkness and you missed the sign ?

I think that it is lousy of the gardai to prosecute you for this. I think that you have been most unlucky. Any one of us could make a similarly simple mistake. Lets hope the garda has something better to do and does not turn up.

If you get a bum decision you can always appeal to the Circuit Court where it is also not unknown for Gardai to fail to appear.

vasch_ro

NUTLEY BOY wrote:

I think that it is lousy of the gardai to prosecute you for this. I think that you have been most unlucky. Any one of us could make a similarly simple mistake. Lets hope the garda has something better to do and does not turn up.

If you get a bum decision you can always appeal to the Circuit Court where it is also not unknown for Gardai to fail to appear.

its their job to enforce the law , if u have a problem with the law as it stands get in touch with your TD, if the Garda does not turn up , he/she will be discipilined and most likely encur a hefty fine for him/herself.

The rules of the road are there for the safety of every one .

Victor

NUTLEY BOY wrote:

A general principle of criminal law is that a defendant cannot be guilty of an offence if they had no intention of doing the act. However, road traffic offences seem to fall into a special catergory where that nicety does not seem to apply. They seem to go on the basis that proof of commission of the wrongful act raises a presumption of guilt.

Based on the old misdemeanor / felony concept (now effectively offence / crime), the courts have no problem convicting people somewhere between "beyond reasonable doubt" and "on the balance of porbabilities". Prosecutions for offences are easy to get.

Also "intent" is a word you have to use carefully. A shop lifter or some one who commits manslaughter may have no intent, but do have criminal responsibility.

mcguiver

if the Garda does not turn up , he/she will be discipilined and most likely encur a hefty fine for him/herself. --dont think so!

If the case falls on the Garda's time off they don't get paid to attend.... which can mean they spend half the day hanging around the court....., therefore you can get one who wont turn up, or worse still..one thats very p***ed off that they are there in the first place.