Gettin started

eddiej

Hi all,

new to this woodworkin lark, have played around making various little bits and pieces and have made lots of rough storage shelves for the garage want to make a proper storage box now good enough for the house does anybody have any suggestions re types of joints and type of timber to use also a good place to buy timber in the dublin area

Cheers all

kadman

Hi Eddiej,

Welcome. What do you intend to store in the box, what room is it going into.
Does it have to match any other furniture, and will it be in view all the time.
Are there any specific criteria you have to consider , as in size, shape, material ect.

Its good practice to outline a brief for the project, before you intend to start, so that any special needs are catered for.
So outline your brief here, and we'll get it going for you.

kadman

eddiej

Hey Kadman,

Cheers for the reply, the box is going to be used to store toys (hopefully) in a school so there are no real limits as regards to ther furniture. However I would like to make it out of something nice (i.e. nice timber) but not too expensive dont really know a lot about different types of timber but i dont really want an all pine box think they are a bit pale maybe 2 tone but dont know if different woods can be worked together well.

The size say 2 feet tall by 1.5 wide and about 4 foot long

kadman

Hi Eddiej,

Would you consider sheet material, say mdf melamine faced, or veneer.
For a novice its very easy to work with, wipe clean surface, child friendly. Joints are normally formed by routing, screws, modesty blocks or knockdown fittings. Comes in a wide range of colours.

Or are you aiming to use timber, and properly constructed joints. What power / hand tools do you have at hand.

kadman

eddiej

kad,

No way tryin to make this project a serious MD blinkin F free zone (as you can see I would rather not use MDF)

I am really aiming for a timber box with proper sexy lookin joints. I will have all summer to make this and I am prepared to make a complete hash of some of the joints and have to start all over again.

Tools, have a drill, square, couple of chisels, 2 saws (a tennon & a ordinary one think there called cross-cut is that right), level, no marking gauge yet but have been lookin around for one, I see there is a link to tools on the forum homepage so will investigate there.

I would like to make this project with the fewest power tools possible just feel I will have greater satisfaction when its finished.

PS I also have a plane

bitbuilder

Eddie,

The sexiest joints are devinatly dovetails but on the size you are talking that would be alot of work by hand - and you would need to put in some practise first!

In terms of buying real timber, you will find that most suppliers supply "real" wood (i.e. not pine or sheet goods) in rough sawn form, though some can machine to your dimensions if required.

for wood try here:
Woodworkers
or here
Lisnavagh Timber Project
I have not used either of these but they both do a machining service - the second website give a price list to give you an idea.

For hand cut dovetails there is a pretty good explainination here:
Dovetails

There are of course lots of ways to skin a cat so keep asking the questions!

Les

eddiej

Cheers bitbuilder,

That link for dovetails was real good. Do you have any suggestions for attaching the bottom of the box to the walls. i was going to make a sort of frame, with mt joints but then i thought i would have to make a slot type affair to pop in the sides and i presume this would involve a router which i dont have. Do you think that say 3 inch square timber for the frame would be strong enough to allow me MT joint the side pieces to the frame i know a fair bit of work but what the hell. (its fierce hard to describe building a box in words hope you understand what I am sayin)

cheers again

bitbuilder

Eddie,

I'm a bit confused now! I think wat you are sugesting is making a frame and panel type construction with a frame around the outside and a panel recesed in the middle something like this:

Blanket chest

If so 3" stock will be fine,in fact I would probably go for smaller but you will struggle to do this without a router or some other method of cutting groves acuratly.

if you go for straight sides and somesort of basic cabinet, you could fit the bottom by using small corner blocks in each corner and leaving the bottom sitting on these, or fixing battens to the inside of the carcass around the bottom. the possibilities are endless! If I was not stuck in work I'd try and draw some of these ideas up, because as you say it is pretty hard to describe in words!

Les

eddiej

I knew this was not going to be easy but I think I have managed to confuse us all.

I dont have a router and therefore I was looking for a way to make up the sides (the same part as the panels in the hope chest on the link) without one. The idea I had (and didnt explain very well) was to join each of the side boards, I'll have three with a mortice and tennon joint to the corner post and i was wondering whether 3" would be strong enouh with so many joints coming in. If you thought that 2" would be ok for this then that would be great.

As regards the base could I MT the base to the frame, I see in the hope chest it is just a groove so I suppose the MT joint would be well strong.

Do you know how to put pictures or diagrams along with the message and then I might be able to explain this problem a bit better

Cheers for the reply

Eddie

bitbuilder

Eddie,

Ok I think I get what you're saying. This would be hard to do, to MT the panels into the frame without gaps showing would require some very precisie work, and when the wood starts to move, as it inevitably will! the gap will show. the easiest way to go about finding a solution for you is if you post info on what tools you have access to, that will help in defining what is and is not possible - though if you are serious about doing a few woodwork projects, bite the bullet and buy a router if at all possible!

Les

eddiej

Cheers Les,

Buying a router seems to be the mission at hand, is it possible to create the grooves I would need as in the hope chest with an old fashioned hand router or are they only really for cleaning up the bottom of grooves cut.

If a powered router is the only realistic option for a novice of fancy joints such as myself could recommend what to look for. I dont want to have to pay big bucks for a machine that is way in excess of what I need while at the same time dont want some piece of junk that will fall apart

Cheers

Eddie

bitbuilder

Eddie,

You could easily cut grooves with a hand router assuming the balde is sharp (there's another whole topic of conversation :eek: ) if you have one, otherwise the cost of a small electric router is probably cheaper than a halfway decent hand router.

As to what to buy - well, you basically get what you pay for, steer clear of the really cheap one, they are horrible to use, and can be dangerous, B&Q are doing a deal (or at least they were a couple of weeks ago) on the Trend T3 which is the smallest of the Trend routers I think it was 60 Euro, that would do what you currently want, trouble is that it would become limiting if you wanted to do more advanced stuff later. Bassically there are 3 types of router:

1) Trimmers - Small low wattage routers with 1/4" collets, designed for trimming lamainates but can be used for small grooving or edge moulding jobs (The Trend T3)

2) Mid size - 1/4" collet routers with bigger motors and more features - look for fine hight adjustment and a decent side fence on one of these, the choice is huge and the proce range is even bigger, I have a Draper Profesional and it's pretty good. (Trend T5 is the trend model)

3) Large - 1/2" collet Can take much bigger bites of wood, oftern used inverted in a table, can spin much bigger cutters, used for panel raising cutters and the like - much more expensive, quite heavy for use freehand (Trend T9)

I don't have any affiniation with Trend by the way! just there numbers are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head. I own the T3, the Draper version of the T5, and an Axminster 1/2" job that's permanently in the table - each have there uses. You are welcome to borrow either the T3 or the Draper for a try out if you are near West Dublin somewhere - I live in Cork but work in meath so am up and down every week.

Beyond the router itself, you will need to look at cutters - steer clear of the cheapo sets, and just buy good quality one off cutters as you need them..

Now I bet you wish you never asked!

Les

eddiej

Cheers Les,

I was reading on the net (dangerous I know) about plunge versus stationary routers any help graetly appreciated also I had a look last night in B&Q and all the routers seemed rated in watts is this important (the only trend one they had was €400 squids) though was in mcquillans in blanch and there were plenty there around €100-€150 (about the limit of the budget at the mo).

Do you know where I would pick up a hand router by any chance didnt see in mcquillans but at that stage wasnt really lokin for them

Cheers Eddie

bitbuilder

Eddie,

for €150 you should get a reasonable router - the one in B&Q was not with the rest of the routers (obviously!) I'll be down there tonight so will see what they have.

McQuillans have a large selection, but I would shop around before shelling out the money, they are not always the cheapest by a long way, and the staff are a bit wierd to say the least!

As to hand routers - they are difficult to find, in fact I'm pretty sure no one makes them any more, but a search on ebay might turn up something. I've bit on a few 'cause i'd love to have one, but you are talking a fair bit of money for what they are. Much better to go the electric route i'd say. I'll take a look tonight and see what the options are in your price bracket and get back to you

Les

eddiej

Cheers Les,

Dont go to any trouble now only if you are down there, there is a place in cookstown industrial estate (off Belgard road) called Paragon tools they are the importer for deWalt and I have both deWalt gear there before for about €50-60 euros cheaper than the more mainstream shops also they do Bosch (blue and green ranges I think though not sure). Found a hand router on the net Stanley still make them but they are $150 and then all the postage etc so electric is cheaper maybe something for future.

With a plunge router can you lock down the router if you were to mount it in a table some time or am I lookin for too many things in one router

Cheers Eddie

bitbuilder

Eddie,

All routers will have a plunge lock - some will also have a threaded adjuster which allows the plunge to be adjusted in small amounts (Dewalt have this on some of theirs as do Makita)

Les

eddiej

Cheers Les,

never knew buying a router would be so complicated, think I'll just get a drill and make holey pieces of timber instead of lovely toy boxes, nah!

(top tip never be convinced by your girlfriend that making a toy box would be a great idea !!!!)

Paragon also do makita

Eddie

kadman

bitbuilder wrote:

As to hand routers - they are difficult to find, in fact I'm pretty sure no one makes them any more, but a search on ebay might turn up something. I've bit on a few 'cause i'd love to have one, but you are talking a fair bit of money for what they are.

Les

Ah... the old grannys tooth. Hand router, are you a fellow collector of old wood working tools then, Bitbuilder :cool:

kadman

eddiej

Les,

was in Paragon today dont go the're only doin DeWalt have to order the others and they have been sellin to builders with loadsa money for too long got some prices and headed up to B&Q who were, surprise surprise cheaper by ten to twenty euros on loads of stuff.

bitbuilder

Eddie,

Fammiliar story! I saw the Trend T3 in B&Q for 50 euro last night.

Kadman - Not a collector, but if I don't stop soon I may be accused! I actually won a bid on a record hand router last night, see what turns up in the post now i suppose...

Les

eddiej

Where does this T3 hang out in B&Q cos the staff are sartin to look at me funny as I'm spendin ages wanderin around lookin for the damm thing

bitbuilder

I saw it in Liffey valley up near the coffee shop (of course, you dont think they would put it by the routers!).

I'm not sure that it comes with bits so you will have to get them seperate

Les

eddiej

Now the proud owner of a brand spanking new T3

Cheers

bitbuilder

Did you get the T3 up and running? Hope it's working out for you

Les

eddiej

I did ye it is a really powerful machine for such a small one. Finding the depth control a little odd though. It says in the manual that you set the depth from the end of the depth rod to the nut for locking it. I presume this is for the smallets of the three depth stops on the little wheel. have worked out a system for myself but I am sure there is a simpler "proper" way of doing it but maybe not.

Eddie