Issues facing men in Ireland?

Amazotheamazing

I'm wondering what people see as the issues facing men, particulary young men, in today's Ireland.
I expect the upcoming Junior and Leaving Certs will once again show an underperformance of men in the educational sector, which is naturally worrying for anyone interested in equality. Scores of young men are underachieving and their potential is being lost to Ireland.

However, even more seriously, is the incidence of young male suicide in Ireland, which is now one of the top killers of young men in Ireland. Why is this crisis continuing, and how can young men receive the necessary help to prevent this crisis continuing?

Added to the institutional discrimination against young men in the insurance sector, in the family courts and the dearth of young men entering the teaching profession, it is clear that there is several issues facing a man in Ireland today which are going untreated at national level.

Anyone disagree or able to point out other areas of problem for men?

nesf

Amazotheamazing wrote:

However, even more seriously, is the incidence of young male suicide in Ireland, which is now one of the top killers of young men in Ireland. Why is this crisis continuing, and how can young men receive the necessary help to prevent this crisis continuing?

No. It's always been one of the top killers, and is not a new trend. It's just been highlighted in the media recently.

The crisis is continuing because we have a culture that stigmatises mental illness and emotional problems. To have either as a man is "a sign of weakness" in this country.

There is no screening for such in the education system. There is no awareness of it in the public mind. It's the black sheep of the Irish family.

I could rant about this, but I'm tired and need sleep.


The one thing I will say is that the above is not just a male problem. The only reason that the suicide rate is higher in men is down to basic psychogical and phsyiological differences between men and women that lead to statistics showing a higher sucessful suicide rate in men, but a much higher attempted suicide rate in women.

Obviously, the problem is not just confined to the male half of youth. Staking it out as male territory is pointless and counter-productive in my opinion. Why make a sexist issue out of it? Help is needed for both genders not just one.

Amazotheamazing

Sorry I don't think it's solely a male issue, it is, however, an issue facing young men. 80% of suicide victims are men. It could be pointed out as another way the education system fails men by not giving the necessary skills to deal, I don't know.

I certainly don't see it as confined to men, however that's not the point of the thread. I'm sure many women underachieve in the education sector but that's not the focus of this thread either.

Shabadu

I don't think it's the education system's sole fault that suicide is so prevalent amongst young Irish men, but i do believe at this stage they should take action. Not only in educating about depression and suicide, but by becoming much much more vigilant about bullying and peer pressure. They should also try to knock excessive playground macho posturing and aggression on the head.


At the end of the day, it's our society that has made these young men feel that they have nowhere to turn, that they're alone and there's only one way out. We need to make sure that every young person is aware of places they can go and people they can talk to.

Quantum

Amazotheamazing wrote:

I'm wondering what people see as the issues facing men, particulary young men, in today's Ireland.
I expect the upcoming Junior and Leaving Certs will once again show an underperformance of men in the educational sector, which is naturally worrying for anyone interested in equality. Scores of young men are underachieving and their potential is being lost to Ireland.

This is an issue for parents and the boys themselves and not caused by the educational system. The 'under' performance is marginal and in my opinion has nothing to do with 'equality'. Men and women are DIFFERENT. Whenever they perform differently at something doesn't mean anything is unequal, jus different.

However, even more seriously, is the incidence of young male suicide in Ireland, which is now one of the top killers of young men in Ireland. Why is this crisis continuing, and how can young men receive the necessary help to prevent this crisis continuing?

This has always been a problem and there si plenty of help out there for men/boys to access. As long as there are abusive/abnozious or incompetent parents out there there will always be victims.

Added to the institutional discrimination against young men in the insurance sector, in the family courts and the dearth of young men entering the teaching profession, it is clear that there is several issues facing a man in Ireland today which are going untreated at national level.

As long as young men drive like lunatics they wil be treated as such. As long as youg men screw every skirt they get their hands on then they can expect to receive harsh treatment by the family courts. As long as the teaching profession behaves in such an irrespnsible manner so as to produce such lack of respect for it then many men will not want to take up such a profession.

Anyone disagree or able to point out other areas of problem for men?

Some of us men appear to develop an irrational victim complex.

nesf

Quantum wrote:

This has always been a problem and there si plenty of help out there for men/boys to access. As long as there are abusive/abnozious or incompetent parents out there there will always be victims.

Eh. No. There isn't. Believe me. It's swept under the rug and not dealt with.

Some of us men appear to develop an irrational victim complex.

I've noticed that quite a few men are oblivious to the issues and know little about what they talk about.

Quantum

nesf wrote:

Eh. No. There isn't. Believe me. It's swept under the rug and not dealt with.

It's swept under the rug within families. But there is plenty of help out there for people who want it. The trouble is, and the simple fact of life is, that not everyone wants help. Sometimes they just don't.

I've noticed that quite a few men are oblivious to the issues and know little about what they talk about.

Touche ..... but don't feel too bad.. it passes with age

nesf

Quantum wrote:

Touche ..... but don't feel too bad.. it passes with age

Alzheimers is a bitch alright

Jonny Arson

Amazotheamazing wrote:

I'm wondering what people see as the issues facing men, particulary young men, in today's Ireland.
I expect the upcoming Junior and Leaving Certs will once again show an underperformance of men in the educational sector, which is naturally worrying for anyone interested in equality. Scores of young men are underachieving and their potential is being lost to Ireland.

However, even more seriously, is the incidence of young male suicide in Ireland, which is now one of the top killers of young men in Ireland. Why is this crisis continuing, and how can young men receive the necessary help to prevent this crisis continuing?

Added to the institutional discrimination against young men in the insurance sector, in the family courts and the dearth of young men entering the teaching profession, it is clear that there is several issues facing a man in Ireland today which are going untreated at national level.

Anyone disagree or able to point out other areas of problem for men?

I don't believe that the educational system in this country has anything to do with high suicide rates amongst young males. I blame social circumstances for this problem. As a male aged 19 I personally have alot of worries about the future. There is alot more pressure on males than females to suceed in life. Women are glorified by society at the males expense. there is a huge bias towards females in society such as males paying for dates, women get into clubs easier etc. These examples may not sound much but they do have sociologal effects on males in terms of less importance within society thus causing alienation. Society is changing fastly. Women are becoming more and more valued within society than males and the role of the male in society is diminishing. These minute effects can effect more vunerable males. It is not a man's world any more and the changing roles in society can cause insecurities amongst some males. I have no doubt that psychological differences do play a part in increased male suicide but I feel our changing society is playing a huge part in this tragic increase in male suicide.

Nevyn

My grandmother blames The Pill on a lot of the male sucides.
Honetly that and young men are not pushed to get married when they do get a young woman in the family way. They had then a wife and kids, a lot of focus and goals to work for and towards.

There are a lot young men out there lost and wandering wondering is there any more to life then work (usually in a job the hate) and the pub ( and drink is a depressant anyway)

Sangre

Quantum wrote:

T
As long as young men drive like lunatics they wil be treated as such. As long as youg men screw every skirt they get their hands on then they can expect to receive harsh treatment by the family courts.

Oh, of course. So that explains why when a serious, monogomous couple of 11 years have a child outside of wedlock the father has no rights of guardianship.....DUH!

Fysh

Thaed wrote:

My grandmother blames The Pill on a lot of the male sucides.
Honetly that and young men are not pushed to get married when they do get a young woman in the family way. They had then a wife and kids, a lot of focus and goals to work for and towards.

There are a lot young men out there lost and wandering wondering is there any more to life then work (usually in a job the hate) and the pub ( and drink is a depressant anyway)

So what you're saying is, the lack of pressure from society to obey certain traditions is to blame for the rise in suicides? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. By that argument we should make "catching the gay" illegal and go around forcing young men who think they're gay to pretend to be straight. Because that way they'd have goals to look up to. Quite aside from the fact that forcing someone into a marriage with someone they may well not have intended a lifelong partnership with is hardly going to be healthy for either of them, much less assure a good environment for a child to grow up in.

I'd suspect the rise in male suicide is more down to the divergence between the apparent expectations on young men and the reality of the available opportunities in Ireland for young men. Although I do agree that certain cultural habits over here don't help - as someone who didn't grow up here, I find the emphasis placed on going out and drinking a feed of pints odd, because the emphasis seems to be on getting absolutely tanked rather than just having a few drinks and a good time. Not to say the two are incompatible, but I've met a lot more people here who seem to think it's normal to drink 10 or 15 pints on a normal night out than I have in other countries. The fact that for many people the pub is the only place they can go to see friends doesn't help either - there aren't enough social spaces for people to socialise in. Although if we could move people away from the notion of having to get blind drunk whenever they go to the pub, it wouldn't matter so much.

Also, I agree with nesf that there's not enough help available for people with mental illness, and in my experience at least there's worse stigma about such conditions than in the UK or Spain.

smileygal

I reckon debt will fast become a major issue, as Rip-Off Ireland is getting worse and worse and Ireland's getting more materialistic and showy. A double-edged sword. I heard of a series of house repossessions in the last few years.

Also makes me think of the man in England who committed suicide due to the pressure of his debts accumulated with 16 credit cards - his wife didn't even know until it was too late.His wife couldn't believe the banks allowed him to have 16 cards on his income.

nesf

For the entirety of this I'm speaking from a general point of view not an individual specific. What I'm saying does not apply to everyone and is not meant in that fashion.

Fysh wrote:

So what you're saying is, the lack of pressure from society to obey certain traditions is to blame for the rise in suicides? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. By that argument we should make "catching the gay" illegal and go around forcing young men who think they're gay to pretend to be straight. Because that way they'd have goals to look up to. Quite aside from the fact that forcing someone into a marriage with someone they may well not have intended a lifelong partnership with is hardly going to be healthy for either of them, much less assure a good environment for a child to grow up in.

Suicide in young men has always been a problem. Young men (in general!) by their very nature have a greater capacity for violence (to themselves in this case) than young women or older men. This is one of the medically accepted reasons why suicide rates are abnormally higher in young men. This obviously does not apply to all young men, and should not be assumed in an individual's case. There are other factors.

Ignore the whole contraception issue for the moment ok, it's not really relevant. The only relevant point is that young men nowadays marry* much later in life if at all.

*I'm going to use the word marry here to represent any kind of "planned long term relationship" not necessarily legal or religious marriage. Planned as in, relationship for life until proven otherwise if you know what I mean.

From this I'll just highlight one point that may contribute to the high suicide rate. Quite a lot of suicides occur because the person involved feels like the world would be better off without them (I'm not going to get into an argument on why people commit suicide, I'm just drawing a picture here).

If a person has someone "relying" on them. Either be it financially, emotionally or otherwise. They are less likely to sucessfully commit suicide (note I did not say less likely to attempt). I'm also not talking about "over" reliance here or enormous pressure type reliance, but in that this person does not live purely for themself. They live for others, their partner/kids/whatever.

I'm not condoning marriage or anything. I'm just saying that suicide for people who aren't seriously mentally ill (and a disturbing number of suicides are done by people with perfect mental health) are less likely to happen if that person has a "life partner" or children. So Thead's gran might in a roundabout way have a point. But I don't think that it's the cause. I'm more in the mind that it's that a young man's issues might be less likely to become critical if he "found his lifepartner" earlier.

Whether one should look for one's lifepartner when one doesn't really know who one is (ie a young adult) is a very complicated and thorny issue on it's own tbh.

Fysh wrote:

I'd suspect the rise in male suicide is more down to the divergence between the apparent expectations on young men and the reality of the available opportunities in Ireland for young men.

Eh. It was worse in the 70s tbh. Nowadays at least there is some money to be earned and the unemployment rate is well down from that period.

Then again, as I've pointed out before, the issue is not a new one. It's been present for a very long time, and the suicide rate for young men is high on a global scale not just in Ireland.

Yes we have a problem, but it isn't something unique to Irish culture. It's a problem for many many countries.

Fysh wrote:

Although I do agree that certain cultural habits over here don't help - as someone who didn't grow up here, I find the emphasis placed on going out and drinking a feed of pints odd, because the emphasis seems to be on getting absolutely tanked rather than just having a few drinks and a good time. Not to say the two are incompatible, but I've met a lot more people here who seem to think it's normal to drink 10 or 15 pints on a normal night out than I have in other countries. The fact that for many people the pub is the only place they can go to see friends doesn't help either - there aren't enough social spaces for people to socialise in. Although if we could move people away from the notion of having to get blind drunk whenever they go to the pub, it wouldn't matter so much.

The Irish binge drink as a nation. Binge drinking is bad but it is something that is relatively acceptable in our culture. Going out on a Friday night to get hammered is not exactly unusual.

But, it's the "big boys don't cry" bull**** that is the real problem. Something bothering you? Go have a few points and forget about it. Thats the solution.

It's not the drinking that is the issue, it's the use of alcohol to "self-medicate" for issues in a person's life and their mind. Our culture doesn't allow men to "work out their issues". Talking about certain things used to be a "family affair" and a thing to be hidden. This is obviously bull****, but the mentality prevails today.

"Talking out" your issues is just something that far too many young Irish men can't do with their peers. I know that many people could comment on how their "partner" talks to them about stuff that they are far too embarrassed to bring up with their "mates down the pub".

The macho lad culture demands that a man doesn't admit weakness. **** it, it demands that a man not even think about the possibility of having a weakness. Men are no less vulnerable than women to "emotional problems", they just bury it the back of their minds and drink it away instead of talking about it.

As a man in this country (and others), being emotionally self aware is something that is most definitely not encouraged. Being emotionally self aware is something a woman or a gay man has, not something for a hetrosexual male.

Trying to understand and deal with your emotions? Thats something best left to the women. Men don't need to do that. That wouldn't be "male". Etc.

This kind of bull**** is what's aggravating young men into committing suicide without seeking help or looking to talk to someone. (There are many other factors, I'm just highlighting one here).

Fysh wrote:

Also, I agree with nesf that there's not enough help available for people with mental illness, and in my experience at least there's worse stigma about such conditions than in the UK or Spain.

Believe me when I say that there is stigma in this country about mental illness. I've had to deal with the **** far too often.

"Had pneumonia? Sure talk about it boy, there's nothing wrong with getting sick now and then. Happens to the best of us"

"Why are you telling me you have suffered from depression? Thats not something you should just tell people."

When the day comes that I could openly say that I've a mental illness to any prospective employer or random person in a bar and not get discriminated against/get a blank stare/get "put" in the weirdo catagory/get **** for talking about something that shouldn't be talked about in public, then you can tell me there's no stigma in this country.

People have "trouble dealing with the idea of someone having a mental illness" or they pigeonhole someone according to their illness or they hold some ill-educated and mis-informed view on the illness (schizophrenic are you? which one am I talking to now then?).

None of the above is acceptable in my eyes and you'll have to excuse me for not being "happy" with the prevalance of the above.

Sangre

As always Nesf an excellent post.

Belladonna

You each have brought up some very good and interesting points. I don't know much about depression, but I have often thought that the high suicide rate might also be due, in part, by Seasonal depression, often called seasonal affective disorder (SAD). This wouldn't account for why there are more males, but maybe the disorder effects men more than women? I'm not originally from Ireland, but lived there for a couple of years and the lack of sunshine would have driven me mad if I had stayed there indefinately. That's just a guess from an non-expert, but worth a thought maybe.

On a side note, about this quote:

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

Women are glorified by society at the males expense. there is a huge bias towards females in society such as males paying for dates, women get into clubs easier etc. These examples may not sound much but they do have sociologal effects on males in terms of less importance within society thus causing alienation. Society is changing fastly. Women are becoming more and more valued within society than males and the role of the male in society is diminishing. These minute effects can effect more vunerable males. It is not a man's world any more and the changing roles in society can cause insecurities amongst some males.

I think men have traditionally paid for dates because in the past women hadn't been working like they are now and men were the ones with the money. That has changed now but old habits die hard. Also, I think clubs let women in easier etc... because owners know that where the women are-the men will soon follow.
I don't really see how the male role is diminishing, but I'm a woman and so maybe I don't see it. But maybe I'm wrong here and someone can provide a link with figures, but there seem to be more males in Ireland than females. In which case, it's no small wonder that more men are ending up alone and depressed.

Earthhorse

It's a bit of a Catch 22 situation when it comes to discussing mental illness though. Very often the people in the best position to talk about such things, that is people suffering from mental illness and their families and friends, won't or don't talk about such things.

I know two people who suffer from mental illness and both have forbidden me to breath a word of it to anyone else. I understand why. They are afraid of the exact reaction you describe in your post. But if we never get to a stage where we're talking about such things how likely is it that the stigma prevalent in society's attitude will change?

People who have no exposure to mental illness are unlikely to give it much thought and will of course be ignorant of the facts. Education might be the answer here though I'd personally be sceptical of the benefits as people aren't really likely to give these things more than a passing thought unless it directly affects them or someone they've met.

I think the attitude is changing in Ireland, albeit at a glacial pace. People are more open about such things than they have been in the past. Heck, we're having a discussion about it now, even if it is in an online environment.

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

As long as young men drive like lunatics they wil be treated as such. As long as youg men screw every skirt they get their hands on then they can expect to receive harsh treatment by the family courts.

Had you made equivalent generalizations about women, you would have been lynched for your blatant chauvinism. TBH, I’m not certain that lynching you would not be such a bad idea either way.

Some of us men appear to develop an irrational victim complex.

And other men instead seem to develop an irrational guilt trip on account of being penis-wielding oppressors.

nesf

The Corinthian wrote:

Had you made equivalent generalizations about women, you would have been lynched for your blatant chauvinism. TBH, I’m not certain that lynching you would not be such a bad idea either way.

But if he said it about women it wouldn't be PC....

wb btw.