wall plate/rsj question?

borris the bad

hi everyone.putting the corner of a a hip end roof out on to a 300mmx300mm block pier. I have already finished the majority of the blockwork on the dormer bungalow I am building
with a 300mm closer block, the 4"x3" wall plate will be sitting over the outside skin.(1/2 " in from the face)
I have to sit 2 8"x5 1/4" Universal Beams( forming a right angle) out to the pier to support a wallplate. at the end of the hip rafter .Are you still with me?
The other ends of the beams will (as conventional common sense would dictate) should be sitting at the same level as the top of the blockwork and the plate would continue round amen.No my quandry is as the blockwork in this area is finished I would have to chop in to the blocks to 'house' the beams.This would cause extra work ,cut through two courses of stainless steel reinforcing in the beds,(these technically form a ring beam)when potentially I could slide this big right angled beam diagonaly inwards. .As I move towards the house the rafters are rising.How far in would I have to go so I could sit the beams on 'top' of the closer blocks and put a plate on this and birdsmouth the rafter further up.Wil be building the pier day after tomorrow.The pitch of the roof is 39 degrees
Any sound advice needed.
Regards
Borris

gregos

Jaysus, Borris, that's very hard to picture. Could you organise some kind of diagram?

rooferPete

Hi Borris,

Like gregos said it is hard to picture, assuming you have two pieces of steel welded together at a right angle and they are 8" wide ? you should be aiming to get the steel to sit on the centre of your pillar ?

Again presuming there is window or walkway at the side of the house, so if you cut a birds beak out of the jack rafter too far out the hip will drop and too far in the hip will rise ?

I have to admit it's been a long time since I cut a hip roof, but from memory all the angles must the same.

What may help is if the distance between the walls is not far you could fit a cross brace of 75 x 75mm on top of the ceiling joists and cut your birds beak to suit that measurement.

Althought it does seem to be the hard way of doing the job, I think a meeting of the tech division of RooKad may be needed for this question

.

kadman

Hi Borris, Rooferpete, Gregos,

Have to agree guys, this is awkward to picture. What my visualisation is, may be totally off the wall, so some sort of pic, diagram, sketch is needed.

If my interpretation is correct, you're asking how far towards a corner at 45 degrees, can you move the steel, and still maintain correct bearing on the pillar. You want to move the steel inward, because its to labour intensive to place it where it should go.

Am I correct.

I have thrown together a cad pic of what I think you are on about. It may be totally wrong, but until we get your pic , it may serve as a base for discussion.

Kadman

gregos

If Kadman's pic is correct, it would be better to continue the concrete band beam out to sit on the column, instead of using steelwork.

kadman

gregos wrote:

If Kadman's pic is correct, it would be better to continue the concrete band beam out to sit on the column, instead of using steelwork.

Hi Gregos,

I suppose the operative word here is IF.

He would still have to break into his finished blockwork, whether he goes steel or ring beam. And for some reason he does n't want to do that.

Might be giving himself more headaches trying to go around the block work, instead of cutting into it.

Of course we may be going off on a tangent here, if we're wrong from the start.

Hopefully Borris will have a look , or post a pic, and get us on the right track.

Kadman

kadman

Just doodling.

kadman

borris the bad

Hi Lads
Trying to get this off quickly so bear with me.Absolutely right about not wanting to disturb the masonary ring beam.Have not dug the footing yet so can put the pier anywhere.One end of the right angled beam is sitting on an external corner with a 700mm return and then anther internal right angle300mm to edge of window forthe sunroom/conservatory.Now if instead of the top of the beam sitting flush with the top as in the pic sit the beam on top of the masonary making the top of the beam about 4 1/2" higher than top of plate and move it in so able to form 'birds beak'(thanks pete)higher up the rafter.Minimum work and disruption.Hope this clarifies things
Regards
Borris

borris the bad

How can I send a pic?Have the hardware.Lacking in experience

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

Dang we is so good we solved the problem without as much as a builders line , although I'm still not sure what we solved but Borris is happy

I do remember one way we did a cut roof, the walls were a tad off (2 Smidgeons = 1 Tad) we fitted the ceiling joists which were also the floor joists on a dormer, then we fixed a 4" x 2" on top of the joists and cut the rafters to suit the 4" x 2".

The extra height gained meant the sofitt was far enough off the building that the plasterer was able to apply a coat around the top of the building and get everything looking good.

The pitch was 45 degrees so that gave some forgiveness at the sofitt level, there are light weight beams that might suit the corner better I think you can see then on www.keystone.co.uk they are thin but strong.

There is another manufacturer of similar beams around the Prosperous (sp?) area in Kildare, they make for easy finishes for plastering around windows etc.

Nice doodles Kadman

.

borris the bad

Hi all
After reading the first couple of replies to the question wondered if anyone would get the idea.Still confused as to how far back the beam should be moved.Will probably support on small scafold tower and slide to suit.Work on roof can continue and permanent support added later.Does this sound like a plan?Thanks for interest and opinions.Will send a pic next time!
Regards
Borris

rooferPete

Hi Borris,

Do you mean the bearing on the main walls ? minimum 225 mm or 9" in old language, personally I would try to get as much bearing on the walls as I can usually 300mm or 12" in old language.

If the beam is solid and the blocks underneath are either full or half blocks you should be ok with 300 mm if you had to chop the blocks then keep going back until you are happy any weight will have even distribution on the wall below.

Was that the question ?

.

kadman

If I am correct Borris, I think you are looking for dimension A, location of steel from the face of the block work.

Am I correct with the wall plate on the outer leaf, slightly in from the face.

kadman

borris the bad

Hi chaps
That last jpg looked like the right kind of idea kadman.How far back is the rsj to acheive this.
To roofer pete,it was my turn not to understand you but thanks anyway
regards
borris

kadman

Rookad scores again.

The job's all done, ready to go,
Cause Rookad's real hot,
And the rest is real slow.

Sorry for the rant.

Hi Borris,

A couple of ways to go here Borris. Get the drawings, and mark up the section detail, with the steel and shot fired wall plate.
Or I would reccomend the following.
Get a clean sheet of plywood, and mark out the ringbeam in section, and draw on the wall plate. Then get a cut rafter, place the rafter on the drawn wall plate, and lay it to an angle of 39 degrees to the top of the wall plate/ ringbeam section. Then mark out the steel section and new plate, wherever it suits you. When all done take the measurements you require, and start roofing.



Now Rooferpete, I deserve a big rise, and I do mean money

Rookad, Rookad, Rookad.....

kadman

gregos

That really is very impressive. If I may say so.

rooferPete

kadman wrote:

Rookad scores again.

The job's all done, ready to go,
Cause Rookad's real hot,
And the rest is real slow.

Sorry for the rant.



Now Rooferpete, I deserve a big rise, and I do mean money

Rookad, Rookad, Rookad.....

kadman

Gawrsh,

gregos Please don't encourage him, fancy drawings, graphics rendering even, too much praise and see what happens ?

More Money

Well we don't call him Kad man for nothing

Nice work

Roo ???????????

gregos

rooferPete wrote:

Well we don't call him Kad man for nothing

Ah, I see. On a komputer! Kool!!

kadman

That was alot easier than figuring out that string query..

Wot's next up boys, we're on a roll now. We can't go wrong now.

Today ..Ireland....Tomorrow the world...Rookad Worlwide Construction Solutions..

Sorry boy's...have to take me meds, and get some kip...see you tomorrow.

kadman ZZzzzzz.........