VDSL2 is on its way - 100Mbps up/down to 3.6km

damien

http://gigaom.com/2005/05/19/vdsl2-100-mbps-over-copper-next/

* ADSL has speeds up to 8 Mbps downstream and 1 Mbps upstream. Can be deployed from Central office and has a range of 15,000 feet and longer.

* ADSL2+ has a maximum speed of 25 Mbps downstream and 1 Mbps upstream. Can be deployed from Central office and has a range of 15,000 feet and longer

* VDSL , some chipsets that use the optional spectrum of 30 MHz can do 100 Mbps downstream and 50 Mbps upstream. Current carriers include NTT, KDDI, Korea Telecom, and Softbank BB of Japan. Has a range of about 5,000 feet

* VDSL2 has speeds of 100 Mbps downstream and 100 Mbps upstream. Has a range of about 12000

12000 feet = 3 657.6 KM

dahamsta

I'm launching a new company called Genesis Europe 2 to take advantage of this wonderful new technology.

adam

damien

You can start with their website I guess. You still got the old template?

Cryos

hmmmm :P

someone lend me some money so i can start me my own telco :P /me runs off to AIB to get a student loan

dahamsta

damien.m wrote:

You can start with their website I guess. You still got the old template?

(In Clinton voice) I did not have design relations with that website.

(Actually I didn't, although my name was in the comments for a while for some reason. Can't remember why though.)

adam

rymus

Jeez wow Genesis 2... Still 45Mbit up & down? Or are we up to 100Mbit up & down nowadays? Seeing as the original offer was soooooooo long ago...

crawler

dahamsta wrote:

I'm launching a new company called Genesis Europe 2 to take advantage of this wonderful new technology.

adam

Genesis...wow forgot that!!

paulm17781

What was Genesis? I don't remember this.

Blaster99

I've never heard about them either, but then they originated in Cork so presumably nobody except the Examiner took them seriously. This article is one of the funniest things I've read in quite a while: http://ted.examiner.ie/archives/1999/october/13/bpage%5F1.htm

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

I've never heard about them either, but then they originated in Cork so presumably nobody except the Examiner took them seriously. This article is one of the funniest things I've read in quite a while: http://ted.examiner.ie/archives/1999/october/13/bpage%5F1.htm

Oh, dear... That was 6 years ago, it must be nearly ready. :rolleyes:

zenith

Blaster99 wrote:

I've never heard about them either, but then they originated in Cork so presumably nobody except the Examiner took them seriously. This article is one of the funniest things I've read in quite a while: http://ted.examiner.ie/archives/1999/october/13/bpage%5F1.htm

Actually, quite a lot of 'internet branes' that are even now part of IO took them seriously and were happy to take their money, so it'd be interesting to see what they say about them ...

bminish

There is some history here.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ie.general/browse_frm/thread/84b254ec8956c58f/043cac4e35d8e772?tvc=1&q=genesiseurope.net&hl=en#043cac4e35d8e772

Blaster99

So what happened to them and their amazing "internet through the dial-tone" technology?

bminish

Blaster99 wrote:

So what happened to them and their amazing "internet through the dial-tone" technology?

I dunno, How much tax payers money did they get and was it all accounted for in the end?
I do know that they never followed though on their kind offer of legal action against me for my Usenet postings.

.Brendan

Saruman

Great how all these new faster technologies come out when most of the country cant get broadband

mr_angry

Its nice to see Japan and Korea surging ahead while we lag behind [sic] once again. How long will it take to be implemented here - 10, maybe 20 years?

SkepticOne

We don't want this sort of thing here. We want stuff that is realistic and works.

seamus

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ie.general/msg/74c1eee2752fb90d?hl=en

God bless the optimism.

SkepticOne

Meanwhile BT is developing technology to upload your brain (presumably over their super-fast broadband).

Back in 1996 they developed a chip that would record all thoughts and emotions.

British Telecom would not divulge how much money it is investing in the project, but Dr. Winter said it was taking 'Soul Catcher 2025' very seriously. He admitted that there were profound ethical considerations, but emphasized that BT was embarking on this line of research to enable it to remain at the forefront of communications technology.

Presumably this is why they didn't get around to broadband until 2000 after the cable companies had taken the lead.

Personally I can't wait for all these exciting technologies to come to fruition.

paulm17781

Did anyone actually send Genesis money? Did they get it back?

That thread that was posted was very amusing with people standing up for them and saying their mistery product was possible.

dahamsta

paulm17781 wrote:

That thread that was posted was very amusing with people standing up for them and saying their mistery product was possible.

I was one of them, and I still drink regularly with some of the lads. They're some of the cleverest people I've met, and without a few of them the networks you're sitting on would be crumbling wrecks. There was no "mystery", and technically it was possible. It just wasn't viable. Big difference.

adam

bminish

dahamsta wrote:

There was no "mystery", and technically it was possible. It just wasn't viable. Big difference.

adam

Now that it's all history would you be willing to share some information on what they were at and how it was supposed to work?

.Brendan

The Real B-man

still cant even get ADSL never mind ADSL2

paulm17781

How was it possible and what have they done for our networks? If it was possible how come they have not revolutionised the world? They were offering 45Mb before we had heard of 8Mb DSL.

dahamsta

VDSL involved street cabinet-level unbundling, i.e. the DSL modems (DSLAMS) would go in the Eircom cabinet at the top or end of your road, instead of in the exchange. Less distance means higher speeds, and the closer to the cabinet you were the higher the speeds went, ostensibly up to the claimed 45MB. In reality, the full 45MB was really only achievable in laboratory conditions.

Like I said, it was possible, it just wasn't viable in Ireland because unbundling hadn't happened yet, and Eircom's position was that it'd happen over it's dead body. So the guy behind Genesis just got ahead of himself, started pushing a product before he knew the true viability; which is why I've made comparisons between Genesis and Smart.

I'm not sure if VDSL was ever accepted as a standard, however countries like South Korea pushed ahead with VDSL and proprietary variants to lift speeds to what you see today. So in truth these bastardised versions of DSL have "revolutionised the world", because countries like South Korea have pushed the rest of the world to play catch-up.

You'll find technical information on VDSL on the DSL Forum website. There's some information on locations it's actually been used on Wikipedia.

adam

bminish

Thans for the info Adam.

dahamsta wrote:

VDSL involved street cabinet-level unbundling, i.e. the DLS modems (DSLAMS) would go in the Eircom cabinet at the top or end of your road, instead of in the exchange. Less distance means higher speeds, and the closer to the cabinet you were the higher the speeds went, ostensibly up to the claimed 45MB. In reality, the full 45MB was really only achievable in laboratory conditions.

At the time they told me that it wasn't a DSL based product and that they didn't require physical access to Eircom's plant. Presumably that was the marketing dept that told me that then?

Did they actually have any deployable VDSL kit, if so who was fabricating it for them. Had they started seeking type approval for it, this would have been an absolute requirement before it would have been possible to deploy.

How did they intend backhauling from the street cabs or interfacing the kit with the PC's that they were selling (which had no NIC cards, just 56K Modems in them)

So the guy behind Genesis just got ahead of himself, started pushing a product before he knew the true viability; which is why I've made comparisons between Genesis and Smart.

It's possibly a valid comparison but LLU is available now and Smart are using type approved standards based equipment that is actually available for them to do the job.
The economic viability of what smart are up to is a totally different issue and where the real similarities may lie

I'm not sure if VDSL was ever accepted as a standard, however countries like South Korea pushed ahead with VDSL and proprietary variants to lift speeds to what you see today.

yes there are standards for VDSL type products now.

So in truth these bastardised versions of DSL have "revolutionised the world", because countries like South Korea have pushed the rest of the world to play catch-up.

but did genesisEurope.Net do anything to advance this revolution or were they all Hat and no Cattle?

.brendan

dahamsta

bminish wrote:

At the time they told me that it wasn't a DSL based product and that they didn't require physical access to Eircom's plant. Presumably that was the marketing dept that told me that then?

I'd say so. It was a very small company, I doubt the person answering the phones had a clue what the product was supposed to be.

Did they actually have any deployable VDSL kit, if so who was fabricating it for them. Had they started seeking type approval for it, this would have been an absolute requirement before it would have been possible to deploy.

How did they intend backhauling from the street cabs or interfacing the kit with the PC's that they were selling (which had no NIC cards, just 56K Modems in them)

I don't have any detailed technical information Brendan, these guys were under NDA so I was lucky to get what I did. At a guess, I'd say the PC's were just another badly thought out promotional tool. See my general comments below.

It's possibly a valid comparison but LLU is available now and Smart are using type approved standards based equipment that is actually available for them to do the job.
The economic viability of what smart are up to is a totally different issue and where the real similarities may lie

I agree with you on the technical front, but I'd consider the regulatory environment a big part of the viability issue with Smart, and there's a big parallel there with Genesis.

but did genesisEurope.Net do anything to advance this revolution or were they all Hat and no Cattle?

I'd attribute that lovely phrase to the guy in charge rather than the company - small as it was - as a whole. My take on it is that the guy had made a lot of money on comms products, heard about VDSL on the grapevine - or more likely had some snakeoil merchant sell it to him - and jumped in with both feet, with no understanding of the actual technology or the Irish regulatory environment.

My guess is that when he sat down with his technical employees, and more importantly at the regulatory table, it all fell apart quick-smart. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did tbh, and that wasn't very long...

So no, they didn't advance this revolution one jot. Could they have though, if a suitable regulatory environment had existed, if Ireland hadn't still been in the dark ages? I think they could, and that's why I defended them at the time.

adam

Sponge Bob

As a product its a shame it sounded like a nasty dose in the unmentionables . VFDSL would be nicer. I wouldnt fancy 'explaining' VDSL , even nowadays !

dahamsta

Sponge Bob wrote:

As a product its a shame it sounded like a nasty dose in the unmentionables .

In Ireland at the time, that would have been an apt description.

adam

Blaster99

People who think Smart is a pipedream have been listening to Eircom for too long. You can get 24Mbps for €50 in many countries. There's no real reason why the same types of speeds for the same type of money can't be delivered here, particularly in a target limited rollout that maximises existing fibre assets. I somehow don't think contended 2Mbps for an effective €20, or whatever it works out as, is going to break Smart's bank.

damien

Rolling out the exchanges will considerably put cracks in their bank though, thanks to the various LLU charges. As well as that expenditure will be the pressures from their investors for a return on investment.

The obstacle to smart is not money, it's time. At the current rate it will be a decade before they'll have those 100,000 customers signed up and gone live.

tea

damien.m wrote:

The obstacle to smart is not money, it's time. At the current rate it will be a decade before they'll have those 100,000 customers signed up and gone live.

Back of envelope calculations would lead me to think it would cost about 100k per exchange, or 6M for 60 exchanges, before customers are connected. From what I've read, Smart don't have much more cash than that left*, so I guess its money AND time are the problem.


* They're raised 20M and spend about 10-15M of it already, haven't they?

cgarvey

Blaster99 wrote:

People who think Smart is a pipedream have been listening to Eircom for too long. You can get 24Mbps for €50 in many countries. There's no real reason why the same types of speeds for the same type of money can't be delivered here, particularly in a target limited rollout that maximises existing fibre assets. I somehow don't think contended 2Mbps for an effective €20, or whatever it works out as, is going to break Smart's bank.

The financials of the service have been well thought out I presume. That's not the problem. The problem is back to the LLU charges and farcical process that it is. The process now is so manual and time intensive that it quickly detracts from any profit made on the actual service offering. And then there's the number portability thing which is also delaying customers committing. As far as the service offering goes, you're right: it can be done.

vibe666

so yet again, eircom dragging their heels is screwing everybody.

anything to keep the shareholders happy eh?

cgarvey

Yes.. but that's hardly eircom's fault .. they're doing what they do. Make no assertions that they have a social/moral obligation.. that's what we need regulation for.

vibe666

okay, so it's comreg's fault for being crap rather than eircoms fault for robbing poeple blind and holding back progress for the sake of lining their own pockets. :rolleyes:

dahamsta

vibe666 wrote:

okay, so it's comreg's fault for being crap rather than eircoms fault for robbing poeple blind and holding back progress for the sake of lining their own pockets. :rolleyes:

It's both their fault vibe. Don't mind cgarvey, he's just being logical. (No seriously, logically and legally he's completely correct. It's just a terrible philosophy to subscribe to via acceptance.)

adam

vibe666

heah, i know. it just gets on my tits that we're the ones suffering for it while they rake it in.

SkepticOne

Agree with cgarvey. Eircom have no obligations except to look after the interests of their shareholders.

Cryos

vibe666 wrote:

okay, so it's comreg's fault for being crap rather than eircoms fault for robbing poeple blind and holding back progress for the sake of lining their own pockets. :rolleyes:

Nope its eircoms fault for robbing people blind, if they hadnt of done that it wouldnt of highlighted comreg's crapness

SkepticOne

Blitz wrote:

Nope its eircoms fault for robbing people blind, if they hadnt of done that it wouldnt of highlighted comreg's crapness

But they were always going to do that or at least try to. This is why it doesn't make sense to call it Eircom's fault. Eircom are merely a tool for their shareholders. The knife is not blamed for the murder.

Eircom would have you believe otherwise, i.e. that they have taken it upon themselves to provide broadband for everyone.

I think progress will gradually be made when people stop believing Eircom's PR.