'Dingle' has no place in Gaeltacht - O Cuiv

ishmael whale

There a great need for honesty in Irish political debate. In that spirit, I want to make it perfectly clear that my main motivation in posting this article is the malicious delight I take in native Irish speakers objecting O’Cuiv’s Orwellian approach to language revival. Doubleplusungood, if you ask me.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1400366&issue_id=12509
'Dingle' has no place in Gaeltacht - O Cuiv

A GOVERNMENT minister has ruled out allowing the name Dingle in the Kerry Gaeltacht on maps or road signs - insisting the Irish version, 'An Daingean', should be used. If locals were unhappy with that they could leave the Gaeltacht, suggested Eamon O Cuiv, Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.

Local representatives want a derogation for the anglicised version, to allow it on signposts and maps outside the Gaeltacht. They argue 'Dingle' is an international brand, recognised by tourists.

Since Easter Monday, when the Placenames (Ceantair Gaeltachta) Order 2004 came in, the name Dingle no longer existed, the minister said on Wednesday. People could not insist on retaining 'Dingle' on signposts outside the Gaeltacht. 'Daingean' meant 'a fort' while 'Dingle' meant nothing, he asserted. A possible solution was to legislate to take An Daingean out of the Gaeltacht.

A motion had been passed at Kerry County Council earlier this week seeking information on whether 'Dingle' could remain on signposts outside the Gaeltacht.

Fine Gael Councillor Seamus Cosai Fitzgerald, a native Irish speaker, said 'Dingle' was a recognised brand name the world over. Most people on the peninsula, while they supported the Irish language, wanted 'Dingle' to remain on signposts outside the area, he said.

The question of Gaeltacht boundaries was a separate issue and should not be used as a threat. Mr Fitzgerald is to initiate public consultation to ascertain whether locals wish to keep 'Dingle'.

egan007

ishmael whale wrote:

They argue 'Dingle' is an international brand, recognised by tourists.

Theres your problem right there.....
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

toiletduck

i read about this a few weeks ago. it would majorly confuse tourists. why cant they just leave it as 'Dingle' ffs?

Calina

I don't believe that matters involving local signposts and placenames should exclusively be the remit of a Minister. Local people surely have an input?

Sparks

Forget tourists, I'm from Tralee and wouldn't know what the hell you meant if you asked me where 'An Daingean' was...

The Corinthian

I was in a pub in Cahirciveen a year ago and found the atmosphere very authentic as the locals chatted to each other up at the bar. Of course they weren’t actually speaking Irish. Or English. They were speaking German.

I think we should have German signposts in Kerry...

egan007

Someone should remind the minister that there are no sign posts of any use in kerry anyway....

toiletduck

The Corinthian wrote:

I think we should have German signposts in Kerry...

if it wasnt for america, all signposts would be in german!

uberwolf

toiletduck wrote:

if it wasnt for america, all signposts would be in german!

Actually it would be the russians you'd have to thank for that.

Ishmael - you have it on the head here. But there should be room, the entire nation should reanalyse signposting - the speed change demonstrated that the resources exist to alter these things.

Signs on corners. FFS - only country in the world. Suits me on the bike though

egan007

I think this minsiter should stick to the kebabs

.....i could be in the dail....

uberwolf

On Topic Please.

egan007

uberwolf wrote:

On Topic Please.

If i were a politician i could argue that this is on topic as the socio economic factors that propell such an investment is clearly an attempt to cause confusion in a political year - further more the blatent lack of useful content in the arguement is a smoke screen designed to derail the process.

but im not

Zombrex

someone want to explain why sign post in Kerry don't have the English/Irish style that sign post in the rest of the country have?? Why is it an either or situtation? If it is that important fo the Gaeltacht they can have the Irish in big letters and the English in smaller letter, the reverse of how it is in the rest of the country.

I swear the whole attitude to Irish in this fecking country really pisses me off ... it is like we have to beat and force people to use it and then we are surprised when they choose not to. Since when has ramming a language down peoples throats ever got them to love it?

I can see what o'cuiv is in theory trying to do, ie it's supposed to be a Gaeltacht, but it's ffs a step too far.

Maybe GPS devices in cars for tourists should be obligatory now and paid for by O'Cuiv's dept...

simu

Dingle shouldn't be in the Gaeltacht because most people there don't speak Irish. In fact all the Gaeltacht boundaries need to be redrawn as they're all much bigger than they should be at the moment. I remember travelling from west Kerry to Cork city during the last Údarás na Gaeltachta elections and passing through two Gaeltacht areas en route - ridiculously vast swathes of countryside where Irish hasn't been spoken in decades if not since the nineteenth century were covered in election posters. What a farce!

ReefBreak

Typical daftness from the Gaelic Gestapo. It's almost up there with the campaign to make Irish an Official Working Language in it silliness.

uberwolf

simu wrote:

Dingle shouldn't be in the Gaeltacht because most people there don't speak Irish. In fact all the Gaeltacht boundaries need to be redrawn as they're all much bigger than they should be at the moment. I remember travelling from west Kerry to Cork city during the last Údarás na Gaeltachta elections and passing through two Gaeltacht areas en route - ridiculously vast swathes of countryside where Irish hasn't been spoken in decades if not since the nineteenth century were covered in election posters. What a farce!

the breac Gaeltachts - existing only in name for the subsidies

bonkey

Wicknight wrote:

someone want to explain why sign post in Kerry don't have the English/Irish style that sign post in the rest of the country have?? Why is it an either or situtation?

Because of the Order mentioned in the original article which came into law.

The Order declares the official Irish language version of placenames in Gaeltacht areas. In accordance with the provisions of section 33(1) of the Official Languages Act 2003, the English language version of these placenames ceases to have any force and effect as on and from 28 March 2005.

I'm undecided as to whether or not the Minister was actually taking a dig at how stupid and ill-conceived this Order actually was.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was opposed to it initially, and this is a bit of "told you so"-ness.

Its typical short-sightedness all round, and it shows just how little public opinion in the effected areas was either sought, offered, considered by the public, listened to, or any combination of same.

SkepticOne

toiletduck wrote:

if it wasnt for america, all signposts would be in german!

What's the German for Dingle? An Daingan means 'the fort'. I couldn't find the German for Fort in the online translation engines, but the German for castle is Schloß. The Dingle Peninsula would then be Schloß-Halbinsel. Perhaps someone with some language knowledge could oblige.

Victor

bonkey wrote:

I'm undecided as to whether or not the Minister was actually taking a dig at how stupid and ill-conceived this Order actually was.

But it is the ministers act and the ministers order. It is more about the half-heartedness of the Gaeltacht residents saying "we want it both ways" (snigger)

What's the German for Dingle? An Daingan means 'the fort'. I couldn't find the German for Fort in the online translation engines, but the German for castle is Schloß. The Dingle Peninsula would then be Schloß-Halbinsel. Perhaps someone with some language knowledge could oblige.

I think "Burg" would be more appropriate, but it is usually used as a suffix.

bonkey

Burg is far from a suffix. Burger, Burgmeister...

Lager would be another choice. Although its more of the "military camp" variety, I think it would be great to have a town called Lager

jc

SkepticOne

bonkey wrote:

Burg is far from a suffix. Burger, Burgmeister...

Lager would be another choice. Although its more of the "military camp" variety, I think it would be great to have a town called Lager

Guinness and Murphy's would protest strongly against this. It would probably end up in court.

Getting back on topic, I'm sure some compromise will be reached where the Kerry Gaeltacht continues getting tax-payers money while retaining the name Dingle. Perhaps Dingle could be declared an Irish word - an alternative to An Daingan - both permissible for Irish speakers.

All languages have words borrowed from other languages. All that is necessary is that a speaker of a language should be understood by another speaker of that language. The french use words like 'le weekend' without difficulty.

fearcruach

If we just printed maps with the Irish names on it then everyone would be happy. I live in a Donegal Gaeltacht and the signs don't seem to bother people very much.

Victor

bonkey wrote:

Burg is far from a suffix. Burger, Burgmeister...

Sorry, I meant in place names - Strasburg, Brandenburg ....

Lager would be another choice. Although its more of the "military camp" variety, I think it would be great to have a town called Lager

It's from the Dutch laager - a circling of the wagons.

Andrew 83

I generally support the changing of place names into Irish - I don't want Dun Laoghaire to convert back to Kingstown for instance and I'm sure at the time of that change there may have been similar opposition.

I think until the time when all maps have had chance to change so that any a tourist might have are in date Dingle can be dropped but perhaps for now signs should have Dingle in small letters on them too. Same goes for any other major tourist town.

Victor

Andrew 83 wrote:

Dun Laoghaire

Dún Laoghaire?

Andrew 83

Victor wrote:

Dún Laoghaire?

Sorry I was too lazy to bother with the fada, gabh mo leithscéal

longie

got a great pic of a newly erected hollywood sign in Dingle!

Thomond Pk

There are less bungalows on the hills around Hollywood

linux

Sparks wrote:

Forget tourists, I'm from Tralee and wouldn't know what the hell you meant if you asked me where 'An Daingean' was...

Well you know now don't ye?

linux

simu wrote:

Dingle shouldn't be in the Gaeltacht because most people there don't speak Irish. In fact all the Gaeltacht boundaries need to be redrawn as they're all much bigger than they should be at the moment. I remember travelling from west Kerry to Cork city during the last Údarás na Gaeltachta elections and passing through two Gaeltacht areas en route - ridiculously vast swathes of countryside where Irish hasn't been spoken in decades if not since the nineteenth century were covered in election posters. What a farce!

Any actual facts and figures links etc. to back this up?

billy the squid

Victor wrote:

Dún Laoghaire?

yet they pronounce it Done Leery,

can't they just do what the russians did, with Lenningrad/Stalingrad/ St. Petersberg, change the name of the town every time they got a new leader,

The Corinthian

billy the squid wrote:

can't they just do what the russians did, with Lenningrad/Stalingrad/ St. Petersberg, change the name of the town every time they got a new leader,

Don't you mean St. Petersberg/Petrograd/Lenningrad/St. Petersberg?

Hagar

Andrew 83 wrote:

I don't want Dun Laoghaire to convert back to Kingstown

And just what was it called before it was called Kingstown by the English?
My guess would be Dún Laoghaire.

zuma

The Corinthian wrote:

Don't you mean St. Petersberg/Petrograd/Lenningrad/Stalingrad/St. Petersberg?

I thought Lenningrad and Stalingrad were two separate cities?

Those dictators and their view of themselves...ha!!!

The Corinthian

zuma wrote:

I thought Lenningrad and Stalingrad were two separate cities?

Actually you're right - I should have spotted that! Damned mornings!

simu

linux wrote:

Any actual facts and figures links etc. to back this up?

Hard to find stats on this on-line tbh and the census doesn't count because people lie or are deluded about the quality of their Irish. Anyone else have on-line links?

My devotion to boards doesn't quite extend to going to the library and doing proper research!

murphaph

billy the squid wrote:

can't they just do what the russians did, with Lenningrad/Stalingrad/ St. Petersberg, change the name of the town every time they got a new leader,

Cuivgrad. I like it! This kind of rubbish is why we're not a real country yet, we're still playing at being a real country. O'Cuiv once said to my mam-"do you know who I am?" (to which she repled;"no", even though she knew right well). He's a tosser still living in his grandfather's skinny little shadow.

simu

Well, Baile Uí Chuív, surely. Let the linguistic war begin!

Calina

simu wrote:

Well, Baile Uí Chuív, surely. Let the linguistic war begin!

Isn't that a direct translation for Ballykeefe, already somewhere or other in the country?

simu

Calina wrote:

Isn't that a direct translation for Ballykeefe, already somewhere or other in the country?

It's possible that such a place exists alright. Maybe it should be Baile Éamoin Uí Chuív then, to avoid any confusion.

netwhizkid

O Cuiv should not bother with something he does not understand this is as sensitive to the people of west Kerry, as the whole Derry - Londonderry thing is up north except Dingle should be allowed keep its name unlike Londonderry which should be changed to Derry. Obviously O Cuiv has underestimated the Dingle people, with their erection of this Dingle, Hollywod type sign.

From the Kerryman -Unsion website wrote:

‘Stop Dingle becoming like Hollywood’ say protestors

By Ted Creedon

A CONTROVERSIAL giant sign proclaiming the name ‘Dingle’, erected above the town on Sunday morning, was gone by Monday evening — hours before council officials declared their intention to have it removed.

It was dismantled by the same people who assembled it, after one of the letters was blown down by the wind.

Locals were totally taken by surprise by the appearance of the sign on Cnoc a’ Chairn on Sunday.

The group who erected it began work around 4am on Sunday and by 11am, the giant Hollywood-style letters, 25 feet high, were visible for miles.

The immediate impression in the town was that this was a high-profile demonstration in support of retaining the name of Dingle, which has been officially designated An Daingean.

When The Kerryman arrived at the scene a champagne cork was popping and a group of men, women and children were celebrating having completed the task.

At first they did not want to be identified but then one of the group, local artist Darryl Courtney, said he was happy to go on record.

“I've wanted to do this for the past two years. The concept is to draw attention to how Dingle is becoming like Hollywood in terms of prices, commercialism and lifestyle. These letters are half the size of the Hollywood sign but prices here are twice those of anywhere else in the country,” he said.

So it’s just a coincidence that it fits in with the movement to retain the name Dingle?

“It’s part of that too. Hollywood is a brand name - the same as Dingle. Changing the name is just a waste of money, our money and a loss of that brand name,” he said.

Council staff who arrived at the scene would not comment on whether or not they would remove the sign, which was erected without planning permission.

Most local people saw the sign as a bit of fun and were very impressed by its scale and positioning.


“I think the people of Dingle took this sign in a light-hearted fashion but they also saw it as focusing people’s minds on the name change dispute and that's a good thing,” said local restaurateur John Moriarty.

O Cuiv and Fianna Fail will pay a heavy price in Dingle and West Kerry which was a Fianna Fail heartland traditionally. However Fine Gael Will benefit massivly as a result and good enough for Fianna Fail.

oscarBravo

Two things spring out at me - one from netwhizkid, one from Darryl Courtney:

netwhizkid wrote:

O Cuiv should not bother with something he does not understand this is as sensitive to the people of west Kerry, as the whole Derry - Londonderry thing is up north except Dingle should be allowed keep its name unlike Londonderry which should be changed to Derry.

Riiight. Dingle is a sensitive issue to the locals, so the name shouldn't be changed. Derry is a sensitive issue to the locals, so the name should be changed. Ah, the futility of consistency.

Darryl Courtney wrote:

“... The concept is to draw attention to how Dingle is becoming like Hollywood in terms of prices, commercialism and lifestyle.”

“... Hollywood is a brand name - the same as Dingle. Changing the name is just a waste of money, our money and a loss of that brand name...”

Um, so the sign was drawing attention to the commercialism of Dingle, but simultaneously bemoaning the loss of a commercial brand?

Mick86

egan007 wrote:

Theres your problem right there.....
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It's the only thing that really matters.

I'll bet the residents of Killarney would be less than happy if their brand-name town was changed to something else.

Sponge Bob

Mick86 wrote:

Killarney would be less than happy if their brand-name town was changed to something else.

I worked for a Ms. Arney once, she was quite amenable to burning the whole lot down as an insult to the Arney clan .