CM Thread: The Necronomicon - Fact or Fiction?

Sapien

An ancient tome of demonic power scribed by the Mad Arab, Abdul Al Hazred? A clandestine work of esoteric depth and Sumerian heritage produced by an anonymous 20th century magician and snapped up by a hack writer?
Or an invention of H.P. Lovecraft and nothing more?

It is often said that the calls in the Necronomicon bear striking resemblances to certain Sumerian magics - was Lovecraft simply a thorough researcher? Many people claim to produce startling results using the Necronomicon - does this merely demonstrate the subjective nature of magic and the arbitrariness of the system used, or is it provenance of the authenticity of the grimoire?

Has anybody here ever used it themselves?

Talliesin

Which one? There are a lot of supposed Necronomicons, but the concept is pretty much Lovecraft's fictional invention.

NeilJ

The Necronomicon was a piece of Lovecraft fiction.There was an excellent article on the Church of Satan website about the history of the different Necronomicons that have appeared over the last number of years and how they came about. If I get a chance later I'll see if I can dig up the url.

Neil

Sapien

There are those who believe that it is the genuine article - either an actual Sumerian grimoire passed down through the ages, or an ingenious work of research and compilation by an anonymous occultist in the past 100 years. In other words - that Lovecraft had very little to do with it.

As to which one - my question could be: are any of them of real interest? I may as well say at this point that I have read none of them, but have been aware of the "Nec" debate from afar for some time. Personally, I have no interest in expending effort on a grimoire so dubious as this, especially when there are plenty of indubitably authentic sources to work from. I'm seeking out difference of opinion on this point, as the issue taps to the heart of the nature of pratical magic in a number of important ways. For example - if it is fake, but still works, does it even matter?

PaulinCork

I thnk creativity and Magic are very close, as energies, so I'd have no problem using "fiction", if it made sense to me.
Works of art are works of Power, Hel, I even use "The White Goddess"!

Talliesin

Sapien wrote:

There are those who believe that it is the genuine article - either an actual Sumerian grimoire passed down through the ages, or an ingenious work of research and compilation by an anonymous occultist in the past 100 years.

There are who know people who were hanging out in the occult shop where the first one was written as a joke

Sapien wrote:

In other words - that Lovecraft had very little to do with it.

Well that is true, Lovecraft wrote about it and at that point it was not just a work of fiction, but a piece of fiction, it didn't exist anymore than "Springtime for Hitler" in "The Producers" or "The Rules of Acquisition" in "Star Trek".

Sapien wrote:

For example - if it is fake, but still works, does it even matter?

There are indeed people who have gotten results from some of the Necronomicons, but given that it was deliberately written to be needlessly gruesome I don't see the wisdom in this.

Sapien

Talliesin wrote:

There are who know people who were hanging out in the occult shop where the first one was written as a joke

Well that is true, Lovecraft wrote about it and at that point it was not just a work of fiction, but a piece of fiction, it didn't exist anymore than "Springtime for Hitler" in "The Producers" or "The Rules of Acquisition" in "Star Trek".

There are indeed people who have gotten results from some of the Necronomicons, but given that it was deliberately written to be needlessly gruesome I don't see the wisdom in this.

So you you're a pretty clear-cut "It's all nonsense" type on this issue. I tend to agree. Nevertheless, the existence of ambiguity on this matter is of interest to me - in understanding the occult community, the kind of people who comprise it, and the danger of credulity in magickal circles.

chebe

Lovecraft created the mythos but merely mentioned the book, never wrote it himself. Though it's said he dreamt (nightmares really) most of his stories, so there's probably something worth tapping into there.

Talliesin

Sapien wrote:

So you you're a pretty clear-cut "It's all nonsense" type on this issue.

Well, not clear-cut. You can work with mythologies that have been recently created, they do have power. However, I don't think they have much power, which given the nature of Lovecraft's work, is probably just as well.

Rothen

I too have been aware of this debate. Some claim it works, some say its garbage.

It may show how finicky some occultists are, or how insane others are...

At the end of the day if it gets the desired result, then why bother discredit or credit (err...?) a book.

R

who hasnt read it...yet.

Sapien

Rothen wrote:

who hasnt read it...yet.

Oh, I recommend you read his work. There's no "it" per se, rather a number of short stories and novellas, each giving slanted glimpses into his bizarre and eldritch world. He uses that word a lot - "eldritch". As well as the phrase "vague opalescence". Nevermind.

As Talliesin has said, the Necronomicon itself is not described in the stories, merely referenced. Lovecraft certainly did have some familiarity with magick - particularly the blacker kind - the Goetia and other medieval grimoires are frequently and enigmatically referenced; genuine calls and formulas known to any ceremonialist pop up all over, but in such a way as to be indistinguishable from the stuff he makes up to the average reader. Sometimes even magicians can be left wondering.

He's very good at capturing the eeriness endemic in magical working, and the collapse of the mind that inevitably occurs when a person ill-prepared exposes his or herself to the "hidden". In his stories, the hidden things are generally his own inventions, but the moral stands. Definitely some of the better fiction out there that is based on the real thing - if only distantly at times.

ancathach

Its not like Lovecraft hasnt been used magickly, the chaos crowd had the dagon order working with the lovecraft materials in the 80's (dont know if its still around) and chaotes in general have did some interesting stuff with the mythos. Phil Hine has some good pdf texts on his site on the whole lovecraft thing, www.philhine.org.uk ,also worth the reference is his oven ready chaos which deals with the importance of belief and addresses a chaotes use of fiction.

Worth a look anyway.

There is a new "version" of the Necronomicon by Donald Tyson out, saw it the other day in Yellow Brick Road on the quays.