At fault or not ? - bus lane v double white

ifahey

A few months ago I came off my motor bike outside the ALSAA complex in Santry. The scene was - raining really heavy, traffic crawling or not moving at all, I was going south on inside lane of two lanes. Bus lane starts on inside lane about 30 yards from ALSAA gate. Lane was free in front of me from traffic lights (about 250 yards back), outside lane was bumper to bumper.
I took off from lights and was doing about 40km/h by time I got to ALSAA - was in middle of bus lane.

A car came through traffic from opposite direction to turn into ALSAA (crossing Double white line) just before I reached him (saw him maybe 10 yards away). I swerved around the front of his car managed to miss him (he was only 1/3 into lane by time he saw me but I wasn't sure he was going to stop). Bike flipped over on the wet and I spun across the road doing multiple flips. He didn't stop but continued on into ALSAA as if he had done nothing wrong.
Neither myself (lots of bruises but nothing broken) or my bike were too badly damaged - bike just needed a small bit of work (about 180 euro) but my helmet obviously needed replacing (400) , gloves were torn (75), pants and jacket also damaged (350). I followed the culprit and had some choice words for him, called the guards and left it with them. Guards wrote him up (causing an accident by illegally crossing double white but the DPP has decided not to prosecute. Guards didn't say anything to me about the Bus lane infringement.

I claimed from his insurance for my gear costs and bike damage and have just received a letter from his insurance saying I am 50% liable because I was in bus lane !

What's your take on this and what action should I take ?

Cheers

Kermitt

as far as i know, unless you were turning left a few yards up the road, then you would be part liable for the incident as you were in a bus lane. you can drive in a bus lane as long as its just at a left hand turn off. Otherwise i understood that motorbikes were permitted to travel outside stationary traffic, not inside as you have indicated, so the insurance co would perceive this as you being where you shouldn't have been. you could fight this, but i dont think you'd get too far.

echomadman

You were technically in the wrong too, and technically in the wrong is how insurance companies like you to be, suck it up and be glad they're giving you anything at all.

Seth Brundle

you could tell them that you were in the process of pulling over to the side to stop momentarily!

BrianD

If the driver was turning right into ALSAA would there not be a broken white line there?

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs its hard to believe that one human being would drive off after witnessing your tumble!

Chalk

if you were in a bus lane and he was crossing the road,
then was he not fully across a lane of traffic and halfway into a bus lane?

prospect

1. Driver should have been more observant when crossing.
2. Never, ever, leave the scene of an accident, if even only out of basic respect for your fellow human being.
3. I can't see why there wasn't a break in the double white line? Are you not allowed turn right into the complex?
4. You should not have been in the bus lane. I have heard numerous attempts by bikers to DCC to allow them use bus lanes. But they are not allowed, because they are harder to see (smaller) and therefore increase the risk of accidents, which is exactly what happened to you.

Turner

Id say you are lucky to be getting 50% and no other costs.

Both of ye were in the wrong, count yourself lucky the DPP did not chose to prosecute you for driving in the bus lane.

It would have only been a small fine but still after the costs you have to pay it would be a stinker to have that aswell.

Splendid

Thats a weird section of road, ALSAA is pretty busy.
Lots of cars going in and out. Yet there are solid white lines the length of the road, no broken white lines for the enterance to ALSAA.

Banjo013

The fact that there is a solid white line on the road suggests to me that it's illegal to make a right turn into ALSAA while travelling northbound. Is there any "No Right Turn" sign present that the car driver would have ignored ? If there is you have him on that, on top of the crossing solid lines thing. And why the hell has the DPP decided not to prosecute anyway ?? Is the DPP away on holidays or something, what the hell else do we taxpayers pay the DPP for ??! Baffling .........

It is illegal for you to ride in the bus lane. However couldn't you have just said you were going into ALSAA as well ? Would have gotten you out of that one. Is there any way you can go back to the insurance company and say "sorry you must have misunderstood, my intention was to turn left into ALSAA" ?

Insurance companies in general are the greatest shower of w***ers you'll ever meet - I used to work for one. They will actively go out of their way to play down any damages and try to pay out nothing if possible. On the other side of the coin (and not that you care in this case !) the car driver will now loose his no claims bonus, and he will loose all of it regardless of whether they pay you €5, €500 or €5,000. So you see they will jack up the other guys premium, and it'll cover the payout to you many times over for them. Anyway that's beside the point .....

On a final note, motorbikes are hard to see at the best of times - never mind when it's driving rain and a bike is worming its' way through a line of stationary traffic. You took your life in your own hands by driving up a bus lane. If I were you, when all this is settled done and dusted, I'd firstly thank my lucky stars I can still walk, and then remove my shirt and give myself 100 slashes of a horse whip over the shoulders ... then rub a handful of salt into it for good measure. If I could somehow take my own leg off and kick the s**t out of my arse with it, I'd do that 100 times too.

edmund_f

if you have the other dirvers details, can you take a civil action against him?. hate to get solicitors involved but this may be one of those times

Macy

Surely if he was turning into the ALSAA on the bike, then it wouldn't have been a near miss? He would've been slowing down to take the left, so unlikely to come off.

Other driver was a wánker not to stop, but both were in the wrong so 50% fair enough imo.

spockety

Guys, there is precedent set in court by a judge on a matter like this a couple of years ago.

The illegality or otherwise of a biker being in a bus lane was deemed IRRELEVANT to a case, and a car driver was ruled against for damages for a biker who had been run off the road by a car driver entering the bus lane ala the situation described above.

You were not in the wrong, and a judge in a court in Ireland has already ruled in a case like this. you should get your solicitor to look up the case for you.

prospect

spockety wrote:

You were not in the wrong.

Well, I think this is a rather irresponsible post.
I presume your information is true and accurate, but regardless of the details of the particular incident:
MOTORBIKES ARE NOT PERMITTED TO USE BUS LANES

And there are alot of motorbikes who are happy to do this, and drive between lanes, up hard shoulders, over diagonal white lines, through cones marking roadworks, and basically anywhere they can fit, and this is dangerous to all road users and particulalry, to themselves. (I said alot not all, so save your 'We are misunderstood careful road users' crap for another time)

Therefore the OP was partly to blame for the accident, and as usual, the bull**** legal system in this country will nit pick, and in the incident you describe, someone who was blatently breaking the law, gets away scot free.

I hate that crap. :mad:

So back to my point.

spockety wrote:

You were not in the wrong.

Yes they were.

jlang

I hate people who whizz up the bus lane, so I feel you got your just desserts. By the look of things if you couldn't see him coming through the stopped cars, who had likely paused to let him through, then you were going too fast. (I treat your claim of 40km/h with scepticism and if it's true then 40km/h is too fast!)

And it all goes to show why these silly rules like no bikes in bus lane are in place!

spockety

There can be no excuse for lack of awareness on the part of the car driver.
In this case, they pulled onto a section of road without due care and attention. The fact that it was a motorcyclist in the bus lane was irrelevant. What if it was a cyclist in the bus lane doing 40km/h? Would the car driver THEN be at fault, simply because by law cyclists are allowed in the bus lane?

I am not an authority, but our judges are, and they have already ruled on a case like this. However illegal it may be to use a bus lane, it does not take away the need for car drivers to use due care and attention when crossing one!

spockety

prospect wrote:

4. You should not have been in the bus lane. I have heard numerous attempts by bikers to DCC to allow them use bus lanes. But they are not allowed, because they are harder to see (smaller) and therefore increase the risk of accidents, which is exactly what happened to you.

Cyclists are even smaller than motorcycles, and they are allowed to use the bus lane. Your point is invalid.

Dades

spockety wrote:

Cyclists are even smaller than motorcycles, and they are allowed to use the bus lane. Your point is invalid.

Yes but bicycles don't cause as much damage to your car when you drive over them.

Andrew Duffy

Cyclists are even smaller than motorcycles, and they are allowed to use the bus lane. Your point is invalid.

This is correct, but cyclists travel at lower speeds are thus both unable to travel at the same speed as motorised traffic and more likely to be able to safely take evasive action. That said, bus lanes should be wide enough to accomodate a kerbed cycle lane as well as a bus, for the benefit of both.

spockety

Andrew Duffy wrote:

This is correct, but cyclists travel at lower speeds are thus both unable to travel at the same speed as motorised traffic and more likely to be able to safely take evasive action. That said, bus lanes should be wide enough to accomodate a kerbed cycle lane as well as a bus, for the benefit of both.

"cyclists travel at lower speeds"?
In Dublin? Have you seen a cyclist compared to a car in dublin? :-P

In this case, he was doing 40km/h, it is not unheard of for cyclists to travel at this kind of speed.

prospect

spockety wrote:

Cyclists are even smaller than motorcycles, and they are allowed to use the bus lane. Your point is invalid.

True,
But it isn't 'my point' it is fact.

daymobrew

Andrew Duffy wrote:

This is correct, but cyclists travel at lower speeds are thus both unable to travel at the same speed as motorised traffic and more likely to be able to safely take evasive action. That said, bus lanes should be wide enough to accomodate a kerbed cycle lane as well as a bus, for the benefit of both.

I commute on my mountain bike. I cycle fast. I frequently get over 40km/h (25mph), and can hit 30mph (48km/h) at a push. I cycle at a speed appropriate for risks that are present.

On the bicycle (and motirbike) one has to be keenly aware that cars can be turning right across you, like what happened to the OP. It sounds like OP didn't see the car. Sometimes you have to give up your right of way to avoid injury. I'd rather yield and be unhurt than hurt and getting compensation from someone who hit me. Either way I can alway report the person to the Gardai.

I swerved around the front of his car managed to miss him

Here the car driver might have felt that since his car wasn't damaged, there wasn't an accident that he was required to hang around for. I believe that the driver was wrong in such a reading of the event.

Guards wrote him up (causing an accident by illegally crossing double white

Sounds like the driver made an illegal right turn. A helpful offence if you pursue this through the civil courts.

I am 50% liable because I was in bus lane !

Unfortunately they are correct in that you are not legally allowed to use the bus lanes.
Shouldn't the driver make up the remaining 50% as he was at fault for not being observant and made an illegal right turn?
A solicitor should be able to advise on appropriate action. He/she may approach the insurance company to increase the percentage.

While the OP has "illegal use of buslane" against him, the driver has "illegal right turn" (Gardai interpretation), "leaving scene of an accident" and "failure to observe".

spockety

prospect wrote:

True,
But it isn't 'my point' it is fact.

Is it indeed?
Have you got proof of this 'fact'? (That the reasons given when applications are made to DCC for use of bus lanes by motorcyclists, is that they are smaller than cars, and therefore are more likely to be involved in accidents?)

I have not seen this report. Where is it?

ifahey

Hi all,

glad to see this thread generated some interest - i just want to clarify a few points.

There is no legal right turn allowed into the ALSAA complex - same way as there is no legal right turn when you exit it. The Gardai at Airport GS confirmed that this is the case and apparently have been called to numerous accidents for exactly this reason - either bikes, motorbikes, taxis or buses all being involved in similar accidents. The gardai also said they often go up there and issue tickets by the bookful for illegal turns.

I was only doing 40km/h contrary to the suggestion I wasn't. As for whizzing up the bus lanes - this is only done by lunatics and cars trying to avoid getting caught by the cop at the end of the road ! I generally stick about 40 (which is ~25mph) to allow time to avoid all the incursions into lanes without indicating/warning etc.

I take everyones point in relation to bus lanes and to be honest do generally stay out of them but on very wet days it is generally safer to be driving in an empty piece of road as opposed to a car inhabited space with lots of spray, cars braking for no reason etc.....

No reason was given why the case wasn't going to be prosecuted.

I couldn't see the car until he came he came past the line of the traffic but to be honest I'm on a very upright bike and would certainly have had a better view than say a taxi or other types of bikes..

cheers,
Ian

ps : spockety any idea when this case was or any reference that would allow me find it ? cheers.

prospect

spockety wrote:

Is it indeed?
Have you got proof of this 'fact'? (That the reasons given when applications are made to DCC for use of bus lanes by motorcyclists, is that they are smaller than cars, and therefore are more likely to be involved in accidents?)

I have not seen this report. Where is it?

What is with all this misquoting?
Did I say I saw a report?
Did I say it was because a motorbike is smaller than a car?
Are you disputing that motorbikes are not allowed to use bus lanes?

It is like this, you stated, quite clearly that the OP was not in the wrong. All I am ssaying is that kind of misguided comment is not very responsible, and 'could' encourage others to falsely believe they have a right to use the bus lanes.

As for my information source, I heard it from Eoghan Madden, when he used to do the Thursday evening traffic slot with George Hook on newstalk 106.
And the reason was that a motorbike is much smaller than a BUS. And that there was a danger when the bike passed a bus which was pulling out from a bus stop.

spockety

You said that you had "seen" numerous attempts towards the DCC to open bus lanes to bikers, I would have assumed that you had some insight into their findings that allow you to say, and yes you did actually say this, that they are not allowed because they are 'smaller'. Given that Buses, Cars, and Bicycles can all use bus lanes, I took you up on this. Who is Eoghan Madden?

I am not disputing that motorbikes are not allowed to use bus lanes, I am disputing your assertion that the motorcycle is in the wrong when a car enters a bus lane and causes an accident involving a motorcycle, simply because the motorcycle wasn't meant to be there. As I have said already, there was a court case won by a biker who had a car run him off the road in a bus lane in Donnybrook, and the judge was not interested in the fact that the bike was there illegally, as the accident was not caused by the fact that the biker was in the bus lane, but by the fact that a dim car driver was driving so badly as to hit something else that was on the road!

EDIT:

Ok my slight bad, it seems the bike being in the bus lane WAS taken into account, but the judge still said it was 70% the fault of the car, 30% the fault of the bike, and awarded damages. Either way, based on that judgement, car drivers still have an obligation to due care and attention when crossing into a bus lane, irrespective of what illegal encroachers are already there!

prospect

No, I didnt. READ THE POST. I said 'I have heard'

Eoghan Madden is/was the head of traffic/roads in DCC.

I didn't say the Motorbike was in the wrong with regard to the accident. I said that he was 'partly to blame', and now it seems that your quoted court case agrees with my claim.

So to cut a long story short:
The OP WAS partly to blame.
The OP should NOT have been in the bus lane.
The driver of the car should NOT have turned right, should be more observant and sohuld NOT have left the scene of the accident.
You should NOT make posts telling people 'You were not in the wrong', because as you have just proved yourself, he was, (at least partly), in the wrong. (Which was my original point, 'a rather irresponsible post')