FWD vs RWD

unkel

Must read [email="http://slate.msn.com/id/2081194/"]article[/email] for anybody posting here. As originally posted by Ernie Ball on this thread

Thanks Ernie for the link!

Ernie Ball

You're welcome. Given the length of that other thread, I may as well provide people with a direct link to the article in question.

unkel

Rightly so!

I'm pretty sure I linked directly to the original article, but the link is now gone from my post. I already noticed the boards gestapo is very active tonight :eek:

Anybody see the interesting posts about the Kensington laptop lock that can be opened with a toilet roll

Ernie Ball

unkel wrote:

Anybody see the interesting posts about the Kensington laptop lock that can be opened with a toilet roll

Huh? I have one of those locks!

unkel

Ernie Ball wrote:

Huh? I have one of those locks!

PM sent

ds20prefecture

What absolute twaddle. Laughable to have an american explain the fine art of going around corners.

The article's premise is accurate in that RWD is naturally better than FWD for handling, but the case is weakened by this article rather than strengthened. For example, he explains, with the help of a GM suspension engineer no less, how the centre of gravity on a rwd car is "better" than on a fwd car, making the car feel like it pivots about the driver. This is nonsense. The centre of gravity has to do with how the weight is distributed across the height of the car.

By his argument, If I stick 2 sacks of spuds in the boot of my car, it will oversteer instead of understeer. Hardly compelling. And what about AWD?

I hate articles like this - it actively seeks to ill-inform people.

prospect

Is there such thing as a mid mounted engine AWD car?
I would like to think that would be interesting!

Ernie Ball

ds20prefecture wrote:

What absolute twaddle. Laughable to have an american explain the fine art of going around corners.

Is it as laughable as putting one's prejudices on display and expecting them to be taken as compelling critique? I honestly don't know. But I'd expect an Irishman to know better, since we always lose at that game. After all, what could an Irishman know about fine cuisine, or nuclear physics, or cars or anything at all other than drinking, fighting, and potatoes?

The article's premise is accurate in that RWD is naturally better than FWD for handling, but the case is weakened by this article rather than strengthened. For example, he explains, with the help of a GM suspension engineer no less, how the centre of gravity on a rwd car is "better" than on a fwd car, making the car feel like it pivots about the driver. This is nonsense. The centre of gravity has to do with how the weight is distributed across the height of the car.

OK, so there's a mistake there. He means the centre of rotation. But it's defensible: in a turn the car gravitates around a point so one could (by stipulation) call that point the 'centre of gravity'.

By his argument, If I stick 2 sacks of spuds in the boot of my car, it will oversteer instead of understeer. Hardly compelling. And what about AWD?

I hate articles like this - it actively seeks to ill-inform people.

I don't think it does. It is written for a general audience who know nothing about such matters (and that is a good description of the person I originally suggested the article to).

And, yes, if you put enough weight in your boot, you will get the car to oversteer.

Blitzkrieger

omfg

BrianD3

I agree with a lot of that article but the author is misguided if he thinks all FWD cars handle as badly as something like an Audi 100. Not all FWD cars are so ponderous and front heavy. He should take a spin in any Alfa/Fiat, Peugeot 106, 205, 306, 405, Citroen ZX, any number of sporty Renaults, a Ford Focus or Mondeo, the original Nissan Primera etc. All of these are far les ponderous than RWD fans might think. Some of them have passive rear steer which can produce the feeling of the car "rotating around the driver" which he says can only occur in a RWD car. Take the Citroen ZX - first time I drove one of these I actually gave myself a fright when entering a corner too fast as it reacted differently to what I anticipated.

ds20prefecture

Ernie Ball wrote:

Is it as laughable as a bigot putting his prejudices on display and expecting it to be taken as compelling critique? I honestly don't know. But I'd expect an Irishman to know better, since we always lose at that game. After all, what could an Irishman know about fine cuisine, or nuclear physics, or cars or anything at all other than drinking, fighting, and potatoes?

Fair point. Although "bigot" might be a little strong - I was more referring to the choice of cars used in the comparison, but I accept that did not come across. I did not expect it to be taken as compelling critique, rather as a post in a moderately friendly forum.

I certainly won't make that mistake again.

Dades

Whether or not one agrees with this article I suspect will depend on whether or not your favorite motor is RWD or FWD.

I thought "bigot" was perhaps too strong a word also. Though it's apparent that you have choice feelings on American motoring, DS...

Borzoi

unkel wrote:

. I already noticed the boards gestapo is very active tonight :eek:

Not me, my jackboots were in the laundry

Anyway - the article also fails to mention a huge detail on the benefit of RWD. If the proverbial hits the fan and you loose control of an end of the car - if you loose the front end of a FWD car, all you have left is brakes to try avoid a crash. If you loose an end on a RWD you still have either power or steering, as well as brakes.

Ernie Ball

ds20prefecture wrote:

Fair point. Although "bigot" might be a little strong

Agreed. I retract it.

I was more referring to the choice of cars used in the comparison

Of course. What they obviously should've done was use a fine specimen of European road manners like a Citroën DS.;)

mike65

BrianD3 wrote:

Take the Citroen ZX - first time I drove one of these I actually gave myself a fright when entering a corner too fast as it reacted differently to what I anticipated.

That might have been the passive rear wheel "steering" which the ZX featured, basicly it meant the car reacted to cornering quicker.

As for the argument, you can make plus and minus points for both. The FWD will behave more progresivly and predictably when the front end starts to let go, RWD has a nice thrusting action when powering out of a sweeping bend and you can sense the push rather than the pull of FWD. Unlimatly when both loose control its usually a toss-up of wether you want to hit the tree frontend or rearend.

As someone when spent 18 years driving FWD and now is RWD the leap is'nt a big one, just beware when pulling off a grass verge onto the road, gun it and you'll be going sideways!

Mike.

ds20prefecture

The Atheist wrote:

Whether or not one agrees with this article I suspect will depend on whether or not your favorite motor is RWD or FWD.

I thought "bigot" was perhaps too strong a word also. Though it's apparent that you have choice feelings on American motoring, DS...

My favourite car is FWD, but I recognise that RWD is much better if a sporty drive is what you're after.

I admire many American cars. The Americans were the pioneers in automotive history - EG Budd or Leland of Cadillac for example. The American muscle cars/Hot Rods shaped much of our perception of what a high performance car should be.

However since the excess of the 50s and the nadir of design that was the 70s I personally feel that the American car industry is a shadow of it's former self, led more by fickle market forces than innovation or design excellence.

My shameful generalisation based on my experience of American cars was rightly highlighted.

Dades

ds20prefecture wrote:

My shameful generalisation based on my experience of American cars was rightly highlighted.

Don't knock pigeonholing, I say!

Everything should be in it's place - it's an Irishmans right

ambro25

For driving the family - AWD
For driving myself and I - RWD

FWD, well, I was raised on a staple diet of Citroens through the ages (CX, BX, AX, XM, C5, etc.) so would recommend to anyone after something 'sensible'...and that's that

EDIT: although a BX turbo diesel once let me down *very* badly in a fast bend and lost it's ass - surprised me so much the ass went instead of the nose that I just froze, absolutely didn't react as I usually/naturally would have... 'Talk about a low point in my motoring career

peasant

Not really an issue in Ireland ...but on snow / ice / sludge ...give me front wheel drive please.

ambro25

peasant wrote:

but on snow / ice / sludge ...give me front wheel drive please.

not 4WD/AWD? You can't have driven much on snow / ice / sludge, then...

Dades

Strangely enough -

Only been driving RWD a couple of weeks and had a slidey incident on a roundabout last night... :eek:

Thank Bejesus for Colin McCrea Rally on the Xbox!

(No, I wasn't reseasching for this thread)

prospect

The Atheist wrote:

Strangely enough -

Only been driving RWD a couple of weeks and had a slidey incident on a roundabout last night... :eek:

Thank Bejesus for Colin McCrea Rally on the Xbox!

(No, I wasn't reseasching for this thread)

But I bet, deep down you loved it
And tonight, you'll give it another go...

Dades

prospect wrote:

But I bet, deep down you loved it
And tonight, you'll give it another go...

Damn straight I enjoyed it!
Only cos it was kinda late and no-one was about.

Is that rain forcast for tonight? :eek:

Seth Brundle

My old E30 (non lsd) was great for sliding out the back. The newer E39 I have with massive rear tyres is much more reluctant to let go of the tarmac (even with TC turned off) which is in itself a good thing but no fun!

prospect

kbannon wrote:

My old E30 (non lsd) was great for sliding out the back. The newer E39 I have with massive rear tyres is much more reluctant to let go of the tarmac (even with TC turned off) which is in itself a good thing but no fun!

Its a fine line isn't it.
My first rear end slid was when i had the car about 2 weeks. It had rained the night before, and joining a main road from a T junction I floored it, the back swung out and was rather easy to correct. I got a fright, but after a few minnutes thout, cool, gotta try that again.
The rest is history...

ambro25

Watch newly/barely rained-on road surfaces in summer... can have *surprising* effects for inexperienced RWD drivers

Gatster

Is there such thing as a mid mounted engine AWD car?

Is the Lambo Gallardo Mid-Engine AWD?

Dades

ambro25 wrote:

Watch newly/barely rained-on road surfaces in summer... can have *surprising* effects for inexperienced RWD drivers

... In the same way tequila can have a "surprising" effect on inexperienced drinkers.
You can either embrace it - or crash & burn.

peasant

ambro25 wrote:

not 4WD/AWD? You can't have driven much on snow / ice / sludge, then...

Well ...DUH ...of course AWD would be better, t'was just in the context of FWD v. RWD.

I have driven in "proper" winter conditions a lot actually, in all kinds of cars. One thing about AWD though: It is very good on normal traction issues in winter, like going up a hill, starting off, driving in a straight line or round mild bends. But it does give you a false sense of security, tempting you to go just THAT little bit faster ...until you have to break unexpectedly ...and then you realise that AWD doesn't make one bit of difference when it comes to breaking ...but THAT little bit of speed did.

Saw many a 4WD / SUV jockey fly off the road having over-estimated their traction on braking.

Every car is AWD when it comes to breaking ...so on ice and snow, don't go any faster in your AWD car than you would in any other car.