The best way to play this

TheEye

I was in a pot limit cash game last night where the blinds are €1 and €3, there is generally alot of raising pre flop as some people like to gamble with only mediocre hands.

One hand I got dealt pocket kings, spades and clubs. I'm on the big blind, 2 limp in, someone makes it €20 to play, the small blind calls, I don't want to force people out so I just call and the 2 limpers also call, making it a decent pot of €120 preflop.

The flop comes 9 diamond, J diamonds and K hearts. The small blind checks, I raise €50 hoping to force out out draws and get one caller.

The turn brings king diamonds

The river brings a 9 hearts,

My question is how is the best way I should have played this hand in order to maximise profit??? Was it wrong to raise the flop?

As the hand played out I immediately checked the turn, hoping he made something and that he'd bet into me. On the river I bet €50 he immediately folded.

I know the it's a scary flop and one that I shouldn't be expecting to make much on, but there was a lot of room for second best hands out there, so how would you have played it?

Lafortezza

To get paid on a hand like that you need somebody to hit a big hand too. Your opponent probably had Jx or T8 or something and when the Kd came putting the flush up and pairing the board he knew it was no good.

bmc

€50 into a €120 pot - the draws are still getting good value. It's a cash game though. The draws are getting less value than you are (unless both the straight AND flush draw are out there). Should you not want to keep one of them there anyway? Obviously you don't want them there free. Your €50 bet got one caller, maybe €80 would have earned you more. I'm no expert but it sounds ok to me.

Nothing you could do after the turn. He either hasn't hit what he wanted or he has but the paired board has him worried.

mewso

If as you say there is alot of raising pre-flop then theres no reason for you not to re-raise pre-flop. Bad players tend to call pre-flop raises more often because they haven't seen their hand develop.

DapperGent

TheEye wrote:

One hand I got dealt pocket kings, spades and clubs. I'm on the big blind, 2 limp in, someone makes it €20 to play, the small blind calls, I don't want to force people out so I just call and the 2 limpers also call, making it a decent pot of €120 preflop.

I consider not raising here to be marginally psychotic.

The flop comes 9 diamond, J diamonds and K hearts. The small blind checks, I raise €50 hoping to force out out draws and get one caller.

The turn brings king diamonds

The river brings a 9 hearts,

My question is how is the best way I should have played this hand in order to maximise profit??? Was it wrong to raise the flop?

As the hand played out I immediately checked the turn, hoping he made something and that he'd bet into me. On the river I bet €50 he immediately folded.

I know the it's a scary flop and one that I shouldn't be expecting to make much on, but there was a lot of room for second best hands out there, so how would you have played it?

As has been mentioned you're only getting paid here if someone else has also hit a monster. The straight and the flush are folding to any bet on the river. Well any half decent bet. If he had a flush he might have bet the turn or else he might have slowplayed it and folded on the river becuase he figured you for a house with the double paired board. He might have called your bet on the flop with the made straight slowplaying it and then been well scared off by both turn and river.

To be honest I think the average player here in a loose cashgame is holding AJ, JT or QJ. Which means you were lucky even to get €50 off him.

Davey Devil

Agree, with Dapper. Crazy not to re-raise pre-flop. Also, who plays 1/3? Was it a homegame?

NickyOD

DapperGent wrote:

I consider not raising here to be marginally psychotic.

Agreed. I read as far as that part and didn't even bother reading any more. Never ever EVER miss teh oporunity to raise reraise and re-reraise with AA/KK. You WANT isolation. Keeping players in the pot is suicidal.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

Agreed. I read as far as that part and didn't even bother reading any more. Never ever EVER miss teh oporunity to raise reraise and re-reraise with AA/KK. You WANT isolation. Keeping players in the pot is suicidal.

In general your right, but Its sometimes not the case. Assuming you play very well and can release on overpair easily (tournament players exit stage right) then it often makes sense to flat call with big pairs, its suicide to define your hand to so small a range of hands if the stacks are deep, especially out of position.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

In general your right, but Its sometimes not the case. Assuming you play very well and can release on overpair easily (tournament players exit stage right) then it often makes sense to flat call with big pairs, its suicide to define your hand to so small a range of hands if the stacks are deep, especially out of position.

I know where you're coming from and in a game where I felt I had a good read on the table I would often flat call in the blinds in a heads up situation with these hands but in loose games where the range of hands you're up against is off the charts, and you're likely to get one player paying you off anyway, I think its just silly not to keep jamming. You're more likely to get their chips early anyway rather than letting them see a flop and folding when they miss.

Waylander

He didn't flat call the blinds though, he called a €20 raise. I do not think that this was such a bad play. He may have had to drop the kings if an A had hit the flop but there are times I would try to keep people in the pot preflop.

DapperGent

I think calling there makes it virtually certain that the two limpers will call as well which means deliberately seeing a 5 handed flop with KK. Thats mental.

NickyOD

DapperGent wrote:

I think calling there makes it virtually certain that the two limpers will call as well which means deliberately seeing a 5 handed flop with KK. Thats mental.

Its ****ing crackers. KK 5 handed is worse than 7-4o HU.

Culchie

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEye

The GF is giving me hassle about loosing.





I'm not trying to be smart, but why is it when I read your posts, am I worried for your welfare?

This quote, together with several other recent posts are all pointing in the same direction.

You seem to be playing in a very serious cash game, very loose and very volatile.

Are you keeping account of your poker sessions, do you know if you are up or down this year to date?

What % of flops are you seeing? How are you treated different hands in different positions?

You keep posting about Rockets and KK being cracked, c'est la vie, that's poker. What are chances of Aces (220/1 ? .. Correct me if I'm wrong, someone will ) ..... It's the other 219 hands (or whatever) that has me worried.

Waylander

Sorry I misread the first post. Thought there was only two other players not four. Needed to scare at least some of them away.

Hitman Actual

I've played in a similar loose game in a casino in Mullingar... blinds are 1/2 with stack sizes generally ranging between 400 and 1000 euro, and often more. While there are a some good players, a few hold the attitude of playing any two cards, for any raise. I've done well in the game, but admittedly when I was there I was playing slightly scared as regards my bank-roll. The reason I kept on playing was because the standard is poor and your big hands will always get paid off. (One of my friends once took down a massive pot with four Aces, getting called by a couple of weak flushes! There was absolutely no regard for pre-flop raising, paired board, etc.).

In the case above, if the game is as loose as The Eye says, I doubt he would have narrowed the field. I'm not saying that a re-raise is wrong, but you have to play in one of these games to understand how crazy they are. With the stacks so deep, people are getting huge implied odds for playing almost anything, so while your opponents might not have much of a clue what they're doing, they're probably not playing the game incorrectly! (well, not much anyway!)

Another thing about this game in Mullingar: you also have the option of moving all-in at any time, so it's a hybrid PL/NL game. Believe me, it is as crazy as it sounds!

Imposter

I just heard about that casino last week Lenny. Any idea what tournaments they have? The guy that told me about it said something about a 40€ rebuy on a friday night.

Hectorjelly

It really depends on the stack sizes, but if you cant get more than around 1/5 of your stack in preflop then flat calling is worth considering.

Hitman Actual

Imposter wrote:

I just heard about that casino last week Lenny. Any idea what tournaments they have? The guy that told me about it said something about a 40€ rebuy on a friday night.

I know they were trying to get a tournament going on Friday and Sunday nights. They were 50euro unlimited rebuys, with only the winner getting paid. Generally people would rebuy until the blinds got too big for it to make sense. This was back in January/February, so they may have improved the format since then.

The cash game is thriving, afaik, but there is a problem with the size of the game alienating beginners. The place is run by a really good guy, who plays in the Fitz on occasion as well. Some of the regulars are good, but most of them wouldn't be up to Dublin standards. There are a lot of really poor players as well, who like I said will pay you off, so it's worth playing even on a tight bankroll.

mewso

lenny_leonard wrote:

In the case above, if the game is as loose as The Eye says, I doubt he would have narrowed the field.

The original post was asking how he could maximise profit. Re-raising pre-flop regardless of how many players he would have pushed out is the answer. If he didn't push out any of them his profit is all the bigger. Specifically I would re-raise the pot. On the flop I would bet the pot. On the turn even though you have 4 of a kind there is no point in checking it as the caller will either stay with you or raise if he has hit the flush.

NickyOD

musician wrote:

The original post was asking how he could maximise profit. Re-raising pre-flop regardless of how many players he would have pushed out is the answer.

NickyOD wrote:

You're more likely to get their chips early anyway rather than letting them see a flop and folding when they miss.

Slowplay no pay.

padser

I agree with all the above points about re raising to narrow the field with KK.

Just one additional point. Asking the question 'how could i have maximised profit from the hand' seems a little bit irrelevent because it was not until the fourth king came that it was about maximising profit. Up to that point it was about winning the hand, even post flop with the flushes out there it wasnt about maximising profit, so any advice given on 'maximising profit' is irrelevent to a future similar hand, since it would only apply on the turn at which point it doesnt look like anything would have been called.