wwman and ricardo whinging about unemp benefit

bonzai bob

well as long as he's been looking for a job then what's the problem? If he hasn't been looking then tell him to get off his ass

WhiteWashMan

bonzai bob wrote:

well as long as he's been looking for a job then what's the problem? If he hasn't been looking then tell him to get off his ass

imho, i gotta agree with this.

personally, i think the system is too easy, and it should be harder to apply for benefits. there are a lot of jobs out there, just not the exact ones that people want.
people are far too choosey for my liking

RicardoSmith

WhiteWashMan wrote:

imho, i gotta agree with this.

personally, i think the system is too easy, and it should be harder to apply for benefits. there are a lot of jobs out there, just not the exact ones that people want.
people are far too choosey for my liking

Unemployment is at its lowest its ever been. However thats doesn't mean that its easy for everyone to find a job. The people that make these comments tend to be people who've never had the misfortune to be out of work. Try to get job in a shop when you are say 30+. All the shop is looking for is a teenager. How about if you are a factory worker in a area where theres no other factories and yours closes down.

Besides it not easy to get the benefits, if you are not entitled to them.

That said theres always an group of long term unemployed in every sociey. But not everyone whos unemployed is part of that group. Simplistic generalisations are disingenuous.

WhiteWashMan

ive been unemployeed.

im not saying that you cant be unemployed, but i do not agree that people 'cant' get a job. im not talking aout the marginalised people, or the examples. im talking about a population of unemployed people who just wont get a job. and you know they are out there.
there are hundreds of jobs out there.

people just dont want to do jobs they feel are beneath them.

but if you feel that perfectly healthy intelligent people should remain on the scratcher, who could get a job, but decide to take yours and mine tax money for sitting ontheir arse all day, then you are fully entitled to your opinion

RicardoSmith

WhiteWashMan wrote:

ive been unemployeed.

im not saying that you cant be unemployed, but i do not agree that people 'cant' get a job. im not talking aout the marginalised people, or the examples. im talking about a population of unemployed people who just wont get a job. and you know they are out there.
there are hundreds of jobs out there.

people just dont want to do jobs they feel are beneath them.

but if you feel that perfectly healthy intelligent people should remain on the scratcher, who could get a job, but decide to take yours and mine tax money for sitting ontheir arse all day, then you are fully entitled to your opinion

How come you were unemployed then? How is that different from Mr Beanbag?

WhiteWashMan

i didnt say anything was different. i just happen to dislike people taking the p1ss out of the unemployment benefit system.

with regards to what mrs beanbag has said, you would swear the dole office was sitting there, telling people wrong infomrmation, and haveing a good old giggle on sending people out for a glass hammer. so to speak.

my experience of being unemployed was that i was fired. i sat around for a week, and then started applying for a job, and got one. it wasnt what i wanted, but it allowed me to pay my rent and buy some food, and get a better job.
there was no benefitr involved. it simply never occured to me to claim, becuase i alwys thought i would be working again sooner rather than later.

if mr beanbag wants to sit around and claim benefit, then thats up to him. i am merely expressing the opinion that i dislike people who sit around and claim benefit.

is that an opinion that is easier to swallow for you, or should i just turn around and say, 'you know what, youre right mrs beanbag, theyre all batsards, and your fella is really being hard done by?'

dunno, why dont you post up your opinion?

RicardoSmith

What did you think my post was? Someone else opinion?

I know its not an easy situation, for both the unemployed and their friends and family. The girl is looking for advice, not a rant against abusers of the system. Since hes not done it before, hes obviously not a abuser of the system is he? Thats just common sense.

Any experience I had of social security offices was very poor. Theres definately an attitude problem towards the claiments. Personally I didn't think they were trying to ease the process. It was a case of waste as much of your time as possible, till you figure out by trial and error how the process works. Personally, since the offices are full of non nationals its a bit offensive giving genuine Irish claiments the run around, and a hard time in general. I remember having to present my documentation about 5 times, each time they made a copy of it and each time they lost it. Then the one time I didn't get their letter, they threw a wobble for me ignoring the letter I didn't get.

You'd need to be desperate to be on it, so I have lots of sympathy for anyone in that situation.

Ms Beanbag - get him on a FAS course. He'll be paid, the courses are decent and it will help with confidence. it also looks good on a CV that you've done a course while your not working.

WhiteWashMan

if i was going to rant against the posters boyfriend, i would have.
it was a general post about people who go on the dole who can work.

take from it what you will....

and if you want to be pedantic, she was looking for peoples experiences, not how to claim the dole.

What did you think my post was? Someone else opinion?

sorry, you just seemed to be pointing out what you didnt like about my posts, rather than give useful advice.

WhiteWashMan

tis a good book.

Ms Beanbag

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i didnt say anything was different. i just happen to dislike people taking the p1ss out of the unemployment benefit system.
with regards to what mrs beanbag has said, you would swear the dole office was sitting there, telling people wrong infomrmation, and haveing a good old giggle on sending people out for a glass hammer. so to speak.

It seems apparent you did not read my initial post.. Let me clarify..
Boyf has been trying to find out if hes entitled to unemp benefit or assistance since early FEB. yes thats right. Hes been up to the social welfare offices about 5 or 6 times now. Each time being told something different. He was told he was getting unemp assistance, then hes not. He also filled out the same form twice. Not an error on his part, I assure you. At the last minute, they say they need proof hes applied for jobs i.e. "we need a written letter off the manager of where you applied, nothing else".
So, yes, it appears the dole office is sitting there giving out wrong info and having a laugh behind people's backs. Or else they're total gobsh*tes.
I believe its a combination of the two.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

my experience of being unemployed was that i was fired. i sat around for a week, and then started applying for a job, and got one. it wasnt what i wanted, but it allowed me to pay my rent and buy some food, and get a better job.

Im guessing it wasn't McDonalds. :rolleyes:

WhiteWashMan wrote:

there was no benefitr involved. it simply never occured to me to claim, becuase i alwys thought i would be working again sooner rather than later.

Sadly, those "thoughts" don't magically conjure up jobs. Your're quite naive aren't you.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

if mr beanbag wants to sit around and claim benefit, then thats up to him.

No, he doesn't really have time to sit around, mainly because hes delivering loads of CVs a week and enquiring daily about vacancies.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i am merely expressing the opinion that i dislike people who sit around and claim benefit.

Well, I think I'll express the opinion that I vehemently dislike people who pass judgement, especially negative judgement on other people and their situations without having any complete knowledge about them. Sound like someone familiar to you :rolleyes:

WhiteWashMan wrote:

is that an opinion that is easier to swallow for you, or should i just turn around and say, 'you know what, youre right mrs beanbag, theyre all batsards, and your fella is really being hard done by?'.

Its Ms. Beanbag to you.
I didnt ask for an opinion, I asked for advice. You have provided none. You've just spewed out nastiness.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

why dont you post up your opinion?

Opinion about what exactly?

RicardoSmith

While I disagree with mr WhiteWashMan, hes probably jaded from all the moderating. Which is a thankless job. Avoid getting hot under the collar. This is just a discussion and everyone has a different opinion.

Rather than spend all day every day looking for work which is very disheartening. He'd be better assigning a fixed time to the task. Say Mon and Fri mornings when the papers are out. Then go out and do something else. Meet friends, do a course etc. If you read that book, (What colour is your parachute) it suggests that cold calling either by CV or in personal. Isn't that successful. Neither is searching on the web. The most successful route is networking with your friends and family and ads in the paper. In that way you have 10-20 people helping you look rather than doing it yourself.

Also if your approach isn't working, you've nothing to lose by taking a break from the hunt, re assess what your all about and try a new approach.

nesf

To be honest, I agree with WWM to a large extent.

I've been effectively umemployed since March 2004 (ie over a year). I've been studying part time to build up credits to make my final year easier and I've gone through a couple of part time jobs but couldn't settle in any of them for longer than a month.

To be perfectly honest, if I wanted a job I could get one very easily. My background in sales and years of making contacts and networking would allow me to waltz into a sales job at management level or below.

Now the reason I am not in full time employment is because I was given medical advice not to work full time. Actually the doctor in question told me to not work part time or study at all for 12 months. I disagreed with this and went back to college on a part time basis and worked part time occasionally to supplement my income.

Now I am entitled to a host of benifits. I've been contributing quite a bit of my pay checks to PRSI since I was 16. I have more than enough PRSI credits to support me drawing the dole. I also am entitled to support for disablity, medical and other reasons. In the last year I was entitled to a lot of things.

Did I take even a single one? No. I've been living off 700 euro a month (thats for everything including rent). My parents also are paying into the SSIA I had going at 250 euro a month. So effectively my parents give me a grand a month. I'm lucky they can afford this and that they are willing to give me the money.

I could have drawn the dole on top of this, no questions asked. My doctors offered to sort it out for me. I refused.

I do not think that anyone should be drawing the dole except as an absolute last resort. The social system is horribly abused by people who use it as a form of long term support rather than as a safety net to help you get back into the workforce. I know it's abused because certain relatives of mine have been drawing the dole since before I was born.

Unemployment benifit should only be used by people who can't work. Not by people who choose not to work.

I went from doing industrial sales dressed in an 800 euro suit closing deals worth hundreds of thousands of euro, to doing telesales, working as a shop attendant, doing door to door sales and flipping burgers in a local chippy because I had no choice if I wanted more money. And I had a damn good medical reason for not working, so I didn't have to do any of these jobs. In order to get these jobs I had to drop an awful lot of information off my CV. Otherwise I never got a reply.

I don't care if you have standards. I don't care how good the job you left is. There is never an excuse for not working when you are able to. No excuse at all. If you can't find work, drop your standards and find a ****ty job to pay the rent while you are applying for something that suits your skills better.

I don't care if you have to work in MacDonalds, I've done it. Leave the benifits for people that actually NEED them.

(/rant)

nesf

RicardoSmith wrote:

nesf - It could be argued that by choosing not to get the dole and just let your parents pay for you upkeep, all you are doing is scabbing off your parents. Not everyone has that luxury. To be honest its a bit be all high and mighty about the dole, when you've never needed it.

All you claiming on the dole is a fraction of the money you've put into the system, or will put into the system in the future.

My point was that I didn't really need to draw benifit even though I was entitled to it. Just because you are entitled to something does not mean you should take it.

My family was originally very poor, and a lot of my extended family would be on the poverty line if the better off members of the family didn't help them out when they could. I've no illusions about what it's like mate. I am very grateful that my dad can afford to spot me the cash for the past year while I was getting myself back on my feet.


What I was saying is that the dole is for people who can't work, not as a support system for those who choose not to work.

I have absolutely no problems with people who for whatever reason cannot work be it because of a medical condition or because of their area having no jobs at all (this is a rural problem though, not an urban one). I have no issues with paying PRSI because I appreciate that if in the future I cannot work, I will have some support to get me through until I can return to the workforce. Although to be honest, I know I have a long term medical condition that probably will result in me having no choice but to be unemployed at some point in the future, so I have scrimped and saved all I can against that time. I am preparing for that time. It might never happen, and if it doesn't then I have a nice windfall for myself when I retire.


And as for your bull**** about me being all high and mighty. I worked in ****ty ****ing jobs for minimum wage. I have very wealthy parents, I did not need to work, they would have given me more money if I had asked. I didn't, because I don't like leaching the small amount that I do off them as it is. So cut your "you have rich parents therefore you don't really understand what life is like" bull****. I have not had a pampered existence and have lived below the poverty line.

I could go on but I'm sure you can see my point.

zervi2003

Bravo to all those people out there who were unemployed and never needed to get assistance to pay those damn bills, rent and to generally live.

I truly commend you. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people. Does me on benefits make me "not" want to work? Does it mean I am lazy on my arse looking for work? Of course not. Not one bit.

I am unemployed at the moment, and shovelling CVs through doors, agencies, email, you name it, have done it.

But noone is biting. Frustrating. And to make it worse, the general perception of people towards me at the moment, is that i'm "lazy" cause I dont work!

Unfortunately people have this general image of people on benefits as being dirty, idiot, lazy no hopers.

I wonder, if I was not on benefits, living a very very (and believe me at the moment I live a very modest lifestyle only just manage to keep my head above water) difficult life would people be a bit more respectful - even though I'd literally be swimming in debt and bills.

anyways, to the OP. I had to also fill in the evidence of work form.

I printed out emails ("sent items"..in yahoo anyways), wrote down when I had phone conversations with any agency, when I went in to them, any forms i filled in (if any has been sent to him also by email, print them out) etc.

I have never received a reply from a "manager" of a company yet. So I dare say the "deciding officer" in the Social Welfare is on a different planet (where managers have lots of time, of course, to reply to people they dont want!).

I'd fill in the form like above and bring it in. I wouldnt call it "chancing" as that is what I did in my case and noone said anything. But if anything is said to him, he can either explain to them that or else do the "oh shur I didnt hear that/understand that/realise that I had to do that..." (it was not explicitly stated on the form I filled in anyways that it was only "managers' replies" that would do).

And to WWM, the problem resides in the Social Benefit system, not in the people claiming benefit. Would you blame people, going to hospital cause they need treatment for lack of beds?

WhiteWashMan

it always amuses me when people take the meaning they want from things i say, which isnt what i said.

to you people, good for you.

me personally, i dont give a monkeys if you are ont he scratcher, if your boyfriend is on the scratcher, or anyting else.

my personal opinion is if you can work, you should. i am aware that people have trouble getting jobs, but lets face it, if you are able bodied, and healthy, then you cant be too hard up for a job can you, coz i know mcdonalds are always looking.

but if you are too proud to get a menial job until you can get something better, and would prefer to be on the dole, then thats good for you.

by the way, there ms. beanbag, while i have no problem with oyu getting hot under the collar, debating opinion, ior even disgreeing with me outright, i do have a problem with you getting personal and insulting.

youre currently walking a fine line, because you have taken something i said in generality, rather than at you or your partner.

i think you ought to learn to take a step back, and learn that not everything is aimed at you.

by the way, if you believe that having a different opinion is being naive, then i think you have athing or two to learn about the world and the people in it.

and this is a discussion board, if someone wants to put up an opinon on your thread, they are entitled to do it, whether you wanted it or not.

please, remember this is an open community, not your living room.

WhiteWashMan

zervi2003 wrote:

And to WWM, the problem resides in the Social Benefit system, not in the people claiming benefit. Would you blame people, going to hospital cause they need treatment for lack of beds?

i would if all they needed was a band aid...

nesf

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i would if all they needed was a band aid...

Off Topic but...

Wasn't there a serious problem years back (maybe still now) with people abusing the accident and emergency parts of hospitals by coming into them and demanding treatment when a trip to their local GP or pharmacist was all that they required? Wasn't it something like 50+% of people in accident and emergency rooms who were like this, and that they were causing a very serious problem because of the overcrowding in those rooms and that they were delaying treatment for people who genuinely needed to be in a hospital?

Maybe it was just spin to talk down the overcrowding mess that our hospitals are in, but I remember reading quite a bit about it. But it could be used as an analogy to the problem of people abusing the benifit system and causing it to be more difficult for people who genuinely need benifit to get on it?

BuffyBot

coz i know mcdonalds are always looking.

If, of course, they'll bother taking you on, training you up etc for before you head off in to pastures new - they tend to favour those they know will stay

RicardoSmith

If you look at the various big closures around the country, the majority of people will be signing on for a month or two, until they find something else. According to you lot, these people can walk into any local business and find a job. If they don't then they are wasters.

Actually places like FAS put schemes together to retrain and skill these people so they can gain employment elsewhere. If it was was easy as you are all suggesting then they wouldn't need to do this.

Equally, if you can survive without being on the dole, then thats not a comparable situation to someone who needs the money to make ends meet, pay rent, mortgage, feed and dress the kids and themselves. Not everyone has other options.

WhiteWashMan

BuffyBot wrote:

If, of course, they'll bother taking you on, training you up etc for before you head off in to pastures new - they tend to favour those they know will stay

thats not true actually.
mcdonalds have a policy of recruiting only 2-3 people they feel will stay the long haul. these people become supervisors pretty quickly.
everyone else has a shelf life of about 3-6 months.
if people stay longer than that, then its a bonus.

ricardo, i dont have a problem with people siging onto the dole.
i think you have completely missed my point, much like the other people on the thread.
i have aproblem with people who are long term unemployed getting benefit, who are able to do work.

i gave my own example of getting a crappy job, instead of going on the dole. as far as im concenred, it was the same thing, except i wasnt held hostage by the state.

fair enough, i may be wrong abot the people in the benefits office sending people on wild goosechases, and laughing about it behind their back, but if i start believing that, then i may as well start believing all sorts of things.

and its not that important to me.

if people get upset because they think they fall into the catagory im talking about, then you either do, or youre a little sensitive.
and while i apprecaite that people on the scratcher can suffer from low self esteem (one of the reasons i got a crap job), its important to remain positive.

coming on here and having a go for holding an opinion that you dont believe is correct, is not going to make you feel better. you can put all the arguments about factories and hospitals to me, but its not going to change how i feel about people on the dole.

if someone on the dole is not having much fun, then perhaps they ought to change their stratagy?
because in my book, and this is no offense to anyone here, but my definition of stupid, is doing the same thing over and over and over again, and expecting differnt results.

if you keep just posting a cv and youre not getting anywhere, you ever think that maybe, just maybe thats its your cv thats the problem, and not the 300 companies you just nailed?
ever think it may be your stratagy, or your route to market?

come on. sitting at home and complaining about being unemployed, when i feel anyone can get a job if they try hard enough (and not some crappy mcdonalds or spar supermarket job), is not acceptable to me. and again, thats my opinion.

now if you came on here and asked how do i get a job, i think you will find i have always always given advice on how to go about getting a job.

but i still reserve the right to hold my own opinion

Mr. Beanbag

Ok I've been following this thread since it's begining and I just tought it was time I posted...

I've being unemp since December, I've being looking for a job since the second I left my last job... I was told to sign up for benifit in mid Janurary but I didn't go to the offices untill the 9th of Feburary...
In total I've being up to the offices over 15 times now !!!
I've filled out one form over 4 times now, and no I didn't make a mistake which made me have to redo it...
I've had to give my personel details 3 times already, also I've given the details in which the places I've handed out C.V.s over 5 times now...

I was told that I wouldn't get benifit, a week later I was told I could recieve it, then a week later I wasn't able to get it... 3 weeks past then I was told I was getting it... They told me that they needed proof that I was looking for a job and were I had handed out C.V.s...

I was told that proof was need before I'd recieve any benifit...

This is the first time I've ever "TRIED" to recieve benifit...
This is a serious joke, I've seen 3 different ppl up there and each person is telling me that the other is handling my case...
It's like paper, rock, sissors...

WhiteWashMan you can't just label ppl who look for benifit as someone who just sits on there asses all day leeching of the system...

I feel like I'm a rag doll being tossed around and all my GF (Ms. Beanbag) did was ask for sum help...
Criticism and Stereotyping dosn't constatute as help !!!

WhiteWashMan

Mr. Beanbag wrote:

Criticism and Stereotyping dosn't constatute as help !!!

i dont think i offered help, i offered an opinion, which a number of people have taken offense to.

thats fine. it doesnt bother me. im sure they have many opinions which i dont agree with.

if you dont like it dont read it.

i mean seriously, how many times can i point out that its just my opinion, and if you dont like then lump it.
seriously.

you know what i was saying about the 'doing the same thing over and over and over again, and expecting different results'?

well, why do people expect me to change my opinion, just becasue they post here?

look. im sorry you feel the need to go on the dole. i actually dont care if you are on the dole or not. i dont care if you drive a ferrari, or dont own a car. i dont know you, and i dont care about you.

i simply gave my opinion on long term unemployed people who could work, but choose not to. as i said, if you feel you fit into that, then thats your problem. if you take offense, then i think you are sensitive, and im sorry for upsetting you, but its still not going to make me change my mind.

god, do i actually have to type 'lets agree to disagree' in this day and age?
now i feel all condesending...

RicardoSmith

This thread isn't about the long term unemployed is it? Why hijack the thread to make it about that. It is just criticism and stereotyping.

Mr. Beanbag - I had the same experience. They must have photocopied my details about 10 times. Inept doesn't come close.

WhiteWashMan - Hostage by the state? Seriously? :rolleyes:

WhiteWashMan

like i said, if you dont like an opinion, why do you bother to keep replying?

seriously

RicardoSmith

WhiteWashMan wrote:

like i said, if you dont like an opinion, why do you bother to keep replying?

seriously

Dunno, bored at work I guess, why do you?
Why can't the thread be kept on topic either?
(its not about the entrenched unemployed, wheres a mod when you need one)

Discussion: "Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation"

[EDIT]... I went to the bother of using TWO big grins to signify I was joking.... [\EDIT]

zervi2003

I dunno at all...like I said previously, its the system at fault.

People are people and, yes, in every country in every part of the world, there are people who will take advantage. That is not to say all people on social welfare are taking advantage. It is up to Social Welfare, and other government institutions around the world, to stop people taking advantage.

So, anyways, to Mr and Mrs. Beanbag, I am not totally clear on the work situation you were in before you left, i.e how long you were working for.
If you were working for a certain period of time, you are entitled to what I am getting "stamps" (or Social Assistance).
If you were entitled to this (there are 2 benefits as Im sure you know by now 1. Social Assistance - you get a certain period of time of benefit payments-depending on how long you worked-has to be continual employment, 2. Social benefit-normal dole).

If you were entitled to Social Assistance, you should have gone in straight away to claim this as soon as you became unemployed. Otherwise they get suspicious and can refuse you.

I know from friends' experiences that getting the second type, Social Benefit, can be very hard.

Actually I was in there yesterday signing on, and as I walked through the door, there was this big poster up basically saying that if you had any complaints, to go to www.welfare.ie and there you could submit a complaint.

maybe that is what you should do if you think you have been fecked around.

Ms Beanbag

thanks zervi