US State blocking a 13 year olds wish to have an abortion, even it would be legal.

nesf

BBC Article on the case

Personally I cannot see how it is justifiable for the judge to block her wish for an abortion when it is stated in the laws of a state that a minor need not have parental or guardian concent to have an abortion.

Are her rights being dismissed? If they are going to allow abortions why stop a child of 13 from having one? Surely she is entitled to having a choice on the matter?

Is her being forced to carry to term dangerous in a psychological or physical sense? I don't know off the top of my head, but 13 doesn't sound like a good age to be carrying a child to term at. Could this pregnancy cause her permemant damage due to her age?

I'm sorry, I cannot see the justification for this. Forcing a child to coniceve against her legal rights strikes me as oppressive.

Memnoch

nesf wrote:

BBC Article on the case

Personally I cannot see how it is justifiable for the judge to block her wish for an abortion when it is stated in the laws of a state that a minor need not have parental or guardian concent to have an abortion.

Are her rights being dismissed? If they are going to allow abortions why stop a child of 13 from having one? Surely she is entitled to having a choice on the matter?

Is her being forced to carry to term dangerous in a psychological or physical sense? I don't know off the top of my head, but 13 doesn't sound like a good age to be carrying a child to term at. Could this pregnancy cause her permemant damage due to her age?

I'm sorry, I cannot see the justification for this. Forcing a child to coniceve against her legal rights strikes me as oppressive.

how much more messed up can american society become? Are these people really so deluded in the pursuit of their antequated religious doctrine that they cannot see what harm they are doing to this girl?

The Corinthian

nesf wrote:

Personally I cannot see how it is justifiable for the judge to block her wish for an abortion when it is stated in the laws of a state that a minor need not have parental or guardian concent to have an abortion.

Can you confirm that a minor specifically need not have parental or guardian consent to have an abortion in the state of Florida?

If so then this is, regardless of one’s position on abortion, legally dubious.

Are her rights being dismissed? If they are going to allow abortions why stop a child of 13 from having one? Surely she is entitled to having a choice on the matter?

If the above it true, then her rights are indeed being curtailed. However there may still be extraneous circumstances that are not mentioned in the article that may justify this.

Is her being forced to carry to term dangerous in a psychological or physical sense? I don't know off the top of my head, but 13 doesn't sound like a good age to be carrying a child to term at. Could this pregnancy cause her permemant damage due to her age?

Do you have any medical evidence for this?

I'm sorry, I cannot see the justification for this. Forcing a child to coniceve against her legal rights strikes me as oppressive.

Was she raped? Or did you mean force a child to give birth against her legal rights?

Shabadu

Physical immaturity can be a risk factor for both mother and infant. Here's one study that mentions it: here I'm sure you can google many others.

The Corinthian

Shabadu wrote:

Physical immaturity can be a risk factor for both mother and infant. Here's one study that mentions it: here I'm sure you can google many others.

You misunderstand. I was not denying that what he said was correct or not (although the link you gave is hardly compelling evidence), but was questioning whether he even knew when making those accusations.

Shabadu

I was only referring to your question looking for medical evidence. There was a compelling documentary about women under the age of 15 developing fistula's due to childbirth in developing countries. While this could be easily fixed in the west, it is still another piece of evidence showing how tennage bodies are too young to give birth safely.

Also, the lower birth weight and psychological problems the child can go through.

On a different note, it really bothers me that you sit around picking at details rather than trying to educate and discuss with others sometimes. You are obviously intellegent; please put forward some arguments of your own on this case. If we all just sat around asking questions rather than answering occasionaly, there would be no Boards. It is so easy to condemn. Try postulating occasionally.

I should be going to bed, but I'll look for a more compelling link for you.

The Corinthian

Shabadu wrote:

On a different note, it really bothers me that you sit around picking at details rather than trying to educate and discuss with others sometimes. You are obviously intellegent; please put forward some arguments of your own on this case. If we all just sat around asking questions rather than answering occasionaly, there would be no Boards. It is so easy to condemn. Try postulating occasionally.

No. In some cases my own opinion would add something to the discussion, but I doubt it would here.

However I do think that people should come to their own conclusions, as long as they are derived from something more than hysteria-fuelled assumptions. Look before you leap - question before accepting, as it were.

And I suppose that is my opinion.

I should be going to bed, but I'll look for a more compelling link for you.

It’s all right - go to bed bellezza

nesf

The Corinthian wrote:

Can you confirm that a minor specifically need not have parental or guardian consent to have an abortion in the state of Florida?

If so then this is, regardless of one’s position on abortion, legally dubious.

From BBC article: "The judge's ruling comes in spite of Florida state law which specifically does not require a minor to seek parental consent before an abortion."

Now about.com lists Florida as a state where parental consent is required for a minor.

Also the pro-choice site details Florida's laws with regard to abortions for minors here.

From the evidence it looks like the BBC didn't do their research properly and I fell into the age old trap of believing something just because it's written by a major news company.

I withdraw any statements questioning whether her rights have been breached. She is being treated according to state law, and is not being denied her rights as per the law of her state. So the judge is acting completely within in his juristiction by ruling as he did since:

If a young woman must obtain permission from a judge, what is the process? She must secure a court order stating, by clear evidence, that: (1) the minor is sufficiently mature to decide whether to terminate her pregnancy; (2) there is evidence of child abuse or sexual abuse by one or both parents; or (3) that parental notice is not in her best interests.

Quote from, prochoiceamerica.org (I could find a less biased source, but I feel that they wouldn't be complaining about laws that didn't exist).

If the above it true, then her rights are indeed being curtailed. However there may still be extraneous circumstances that are not mentioned in the article that may justify this.

As I've outlined above, I was wrong and the BBC article is misleading. Extaneous circumstances are limited in effect in florida. Only in medical emergencies is abortion allowed for those who would not normally be allowed to have such a procedure carried out.

Do you have any medical evidence for this?

No, but to be blunt, I was asking the question. I never stated anything except as a question and I never claimed to be a medical expert on the topic.

However since you asked for some references,

From iqhealth.com
"Problems related to the current pregnancy or past pregnancies can increase the risk to the mother and baby, such as:
adolescent pregnancy, especially pregnancy in a mother who is younger than 15 years of age

From advocatesforyouth.org: (not the best site, but decent references)

Early childbearing may be life-threatening to both the mother and the child. Mothers younger than 17 face an increased risk of maternal mortality because their bodies are not yet mature enough to bear children.2,3,8 These young women may not recognize the symptoms of pregnancy or may not wish to acknowledge a conception, delaying prenatal care and endangering the health of the child and mother.2

2.Yinger N. de Sherbinin A, Ochoa L, et al. Adolescent Sexual Activity and Childbearing in Latin America and the Caribbean: Risks & Consequences. Washington, DC: Population Reference Bureau, 1992.
3. Alan Guttmacher Institute. Risks and Realities of Early Childbearing Worldwide. [Issues in Brief]. New York, NY: The Institute, 1996.
8. Noble J. Cover J. Yanagi****a M. The World's Youth 1996. Washington, DC: Population Reference Bureau, 1996.

Was she raped? Or did you mean force a child to give birth against her legal rights?

I apologise for my poor choice of words, it should read forced to carry to term rather than forced to concieve. This was an honest mistake rather than a deliberately misleading statement.


In conclusion, the article above seems to be poorly researched now that I have done a little research. My wording might not have been as clear as it could have been when I was asking the question of whether health risks were posed by pregnancy at 13 (I had heard anecdotal evidence before for it, but I had not seen medical evidence to prove it). Also my stating of the questions might be misinterpreted as a statement of fact which was not my original intention.

And my mistake in the final lines, is just the icing on the cake really. Sorry for getting myself mixed up and appearing to claim that the state were forcefully impregnating her!

A mess of a post, sorry guys

pickarooney

I don't understand this interpretation of being too young to make a decision. Surely having the baby is as much a decision as not having it, in a state where abortion is allowed. So if she's not allowed make the decision, who is? Somebody has to and going on the revised citation of Florida law, that should be her parents, whose opinion is not sought or mentioned in the article. Instead, we're told the Florida department of children and families made the decision to prevent her from aborting.

pretty-in-pink

What I want to know is why children as young as this are having sex? They get good Sex Ed in the states, and by 13 you should know how babies are made regardless of where you are from. There is no real excuse for people to have unexpected pregnancies these days. Yes it can happen, but you should learn to deal with the consequences instead of looking for sympathy.

If you don't understand sex, and are too embarrassed to talk about it or purchase contraception, then you shouldn't have sex. Full Stop. Instead of the whole "Poor little teenagers" debate, how about a "Why are acting like idiots” one. And before I have my throat jumped down, it’s not so long since I was a teenager, and I know a lot of teenagers, so believe me, for the most part they are not innocent at all. In fact they probably know more about sex and sex related issues then most people here.(foreplay, positions, that kind of thing)

Knowing what I do about most teenagers has led to my hard-line view. If you get yourself into the situation, be prepared to deal with it. Abortion should only be there if

a) The mother/child’s life is in grave danger if the pregnancy proceeds
(Death or becoming paralysed for example)

b) The mental health of either mother/child is in danger if the pregnancy proceeds

c) The child is a product of rape.

Killing someone because you are too selfish to have them is sickening. If you really don't want a baby, but you are pregnant, then put the child up for adoption. At least then the child will be loved, and some childless couple will be happy.

There is no real right or wrong answer- because the whle field of abortion is such a grey issue. How can a child be expected to understand something that most adults struggle to comprehend? Who should make the decisions? Ideally we wouldn't have to, but since we do, then I guess its up to some sort of church/state combination.

nesf

My original issue was that she was being denied her legal rights. Which after doing some research on the issue, it turned out that she wasn't.

This thread is not about the pro-choice/pro-life debate and please don't turn it into one.

And for the record (from the research I did to satisfy the_corinithian's questions):

Carrying a child to term as a child of 13:

1) Is physically dangerous for the mother and the child. The mortality rate for any mother under the 17 is higher than for a mother who is at a healthy child bearing age (18-whatever).

2) Is detrimental to the majority of mother's mental health. Most women as children of 13 are not psychologically developed enough to go through a pregnancy without some damage to their mental health.


Some paragraphs from this page from www.advocatesforyouth.org. I advise you naughty_girl to go read some facts before starting a thread on the teenage pregnancy issue. I've included the saliant points, but I think that reading them might correct your view somewhat. The morality of abortion is not the question, how best can achieve the prevention of teenage pregnancies, is I don't think anyone on either side of the abortion fence would say there isn't a problem to be solved here.

Younger Teens Have Low Contraceptive Use Rates.

* Relatively little is known about the contraceptive use of teens under age 15 because they are often excluded from the few surveys that examine sexual activity. A substantial portion of sexual activity among this age group is unplanned or coerced, making contraceptive use unlikely.7 The older a teen is at first intercourse, the more likely she or he is to use contraception.1
* Younger teens are less likely to have the finances and knowledge needed to obtain contraceptives.2 Young women seeking oral contraceptives or other prescription methods may be embarrassed to have a pelvic examination or have difficulty locating a physician other than their pediatrician.1 In addition, they may delay seeking contraceptives, fearing parental discovery and/or disapproval.2
* One-third of 15-year-old girls say that neither of their parents has talked to them about how pregnancy occurs; about half say neither parent has discussed contraception or STDs.1
* Younger teens are often uninformed about contraception. Only 10 states have sexuality education curricula with clear messages about contraception at the junior high school level; only Iowa includes material about contraception at the elementary school level.7


Younger Teens Who Give Birth Face Serious Consequences.

* Adolescent females may be more susceptible to STDs than older women. Teen girls have fewer antibodies to STDs and may have a higher risk of cervical infections.1
* The maternal death rate for teens under age 15 is two and a half times greater than that of mothers aged 20 to 24.6
* Babies born to teens younger than 15 are more than twice as likely to weigh less than 2,500 grams (about 5.5 pounds) at birth and are three times more likely to die in the first 28 days of life than babies born to older mothers.7
* The link between early childbearing and poor health outcomes is due not to age, but rather to the numerous risk factors associated with being young, such as inadequate prenatal care and nutrition.8 The younger a woman is, the less likely she is to receive prenatal care during the first trimester of her pregnancy.1
* Of African American teen mothers who were less than 16 years old when they gave birth, 72 percent were still living in poverty at age 27. Among Hispanic women and white women, 67 percent and 32 percent, respectively, are living in poverty.9

Younger Teens Are Sexually Assaulted and Coerced.

* Teens are often exposed to unwanted sexual activity at very young ages. A survey conducted in 11 states and the District of Columbia found that over half of the females reporting rape were under the age of 18 and 16 percent were under the age of 12.11
* Early initiation of sexual intercourse is frequently linked to previous sexual victimization. About 74 percent of women who had sexual intercourse before age 14 and 60 percent of those who had sex before age 15 report having had sex involuntarily at some point in their lives.1
* Many teen mothers have been victims of sexual violence. In a study of pregnant and parenting teens, nearly 66 percent reported nonvoluntary sexual activity; 44 percent reported having been raped. The average age of first rape was 13.3, with the rapist's average age being 22.6.12

Edit: The numbers above are references for the information quoted. They are at the bottom of the page of the site in question.

athena 2000

nesf wrote:

My original issue was that she was being denied her legal rights. Which after doing some research on the issue, it turned out that she wasn't.

Thanks for the extra information after realizing there was more to the news story than first presented.

Two years ago I observed sex education presentations to teens aged 13 to 15 about STDs, birth control, and sexual behaviour. Their parents had to sign permission forms so they could attend because of the level of information given. In the US teens do get good information on these topics at school if this seminar was any indication.

The level of supressed sniggering, shock, "eww"-factor, and other reactions from the teens was fairly high. You could tell from looking at their faces who was having sex, who wasn't, who thought they knew something and who didn't have a clue. Anyone who wanted to stay after the presentation could ask the facilitator a private question. Plenty of the teens did.

The saddest thing that I learned that day was that many parents still don't talk to their children about sex. At least they gave permission to their teens to attend the seminar.

pretty*monster

pickarooney wrote:

Somebody has to and going on the revised citation of Florida law, that should be her parents, whose opinion is not sought or mentioned in the article. Instead, we're told the Florida department of children and families made the decision to prevent her from aborting.

The girl is a ward of the state.
She was taken from her parents because of neglect as far as I know.

Tazzle

I get a feeling there's more to this than what the media is choosing to report.

pretty*monster

The ruling's been overturned anyway and Gov. Jeb Bush has said the state will not make any further appeals in the matter.

The girl is in a group home where he has a history of running away. Some intervention was clearly needed before she got pregnant.

Child services have seriously failed this girl in a big way.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/editorial/sfl-editdldcfabortmay04,0,4387978.story?coll=sfla-news-editorial

pickarooney

OK, that makes a bit more sense then. Thanks for the info.

Bucephalus

naughty_girl wrote:

What I want to know is why children as young as this are having sex? They get good Sex Ed in the states, and by 13 you should know how babies are made regardless of where you are from.

I agree that there is a VERY serious question of how this situation came to be, but I have to disagree most strongly about the claim that sex education is good in the States. Twenty years ago I was in secondary school and we had two girls from the States with us for one year. I was stunned when one of them admitted that until it was mentioned in class, she thought ALL forms of contraception were forms of abortion. This completely knocked me over, as up to then, I thought that sex education was part of US education - this showed me that at least one student was taught very badly about sex education.

athena 2000

Bucephalus wrote:

Twenty years ago I was in secondary school and we had two girls from the States with us for one year. I was stunned when one of them admitted that until it was mentioned in class, she thought ALL forms of contraception were forms of abortion.

I'd venture to say that twenty years ago your guest was probably influenced by someone who did hold that opinion.