Children's skeptic material

robindch

While munching my way through a pleasant pizza last evening, a friend asked what a suitable gift might be for a young kid soon to undergo the ritualistic religious-imprinting ceremony known as "first holy communion" -- can't think why he asked me, but he did, I suppose to wind me up I suggested a religious statue with flashing halo, or a string of holybeads, or the creationist primer which an evangelical friend gave to my sister's youngest kid last year (spine still uncracked). All of which got me thinking about skeptic literature for kids -- there are shopfuls of religious nonsense, but nothing that I'm aware of to provide any balance. A quick google doesn't produce much more than this page -- interesting, but incomplete.

Any suggestions?

davros

You can find a list of books for kids here:

http://www.skeptic.com/booklist.html

I was reading reviews/excerpts of some of these books way back and I seem to recall something along the lines o:f "Remember we discussed how Santa Claus doesn't exist? Well, Jesus Christ..." Which seemed brutal and humourless to me. That would be in "Just Pretend: A Freethought Book for Children".

Macmorris

I hate the idea of teaching children to be 'skeptical'. It would only thwart their imagination and deprive them of much of the innocence of childhood. Instead of exposing children to sceptical material, this is the kind of thing they should be reading:
http://www.educa.rcanaria.es/usr/zonzamas/virginia.htm

That's not to say that children shouldn't be encouraged to believe in science rather than fantasy, but it should only happen in the context of them learning real science and learning to make up their own minds on things. Children will put their childhood fantasies behind them as they grow older anyway. The important thing is to make sure that at the same time they stop believing in Santa Claus, they should also be encouraged to stop believing in other childish fantasies, like religion.

robindch

> I hate the idea of teaching children to be 'skeptical'. It would
> only thwart their imagination and deprive them of much of the
> innocence of childhood.

Whoops -- I should have been clearer -- the point is, of course, not to nobble kids' imagination in the style of our fundamentalist friends out setting fire to the Harry Potter books (see here and here; a frightful example of satire turning into reality!), but instead, somehow to act as a fantastical counter-balance to the stories in the bible, and elsewhere, presented as truth.

I don't know if the idea makes any sense, but seeing the Hitchhiker's Guide film last night and John Malkovich as the malevolent priest-leader of the Jatravartids going through a mass-religious-sneezing scene which left me in tears of laughter, it's certainly possible in some way. Perhaps in the manner of Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials', but for younger kids, and there doesn't seem to be much around.

> The important thing is to make sure that at the same time
> they stop believing in Santa Claus, they should also be
> encouraged to stop believing in other childish fantasies,
> like religion.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

- robin.

Turley

robindch wrote:

I suggested a religious statue with flashing halo, or a string of holybeads, or the creationist primer which an evangelical friend gave to my sister's youngest kid...

Skepticism and ridicule of religion, especially Christianity is popular and safe.

It is not "generally accepted" to make fun of kipots and talits. We must not be skeptical of any popular beliefs, but we can be skeptical of what ever is in vogue for us to doubt. Making fun of the Rosary and Jesus Christ is acceptable with the Irish Skeptics Society.

Corn Pone Opinions

Mark Twain called these beliefs "corn-pone opinions": those opinions people hold, not because they have reasoned them out for themselves or because they are derived from first hand experience, but because a person "must feel and think with the bulk of his neighbors, or suffer damage in his social standing and in his business properties."

To Twain corn-pone opinions derive from the "inborn requirement of self-approval," which, "as a rule has it's source in but one place and not elsewhere-- the approval of other people." Twain wrote that the aggregate of corn-pone opinions together make up Public Opinion which is held in reverence and some think of as "The Voice of God."

From The Tolerant Society by Lee Bolinger,
Mr. Bolinger was discussing the phenomenon of public intolerance and public opinion

robindch

> Skepticism and ridicule of religion, especially Christianity is popular and safe.

Not true. Despite many representatives of Ireland's religious being caught, literally, with their pants down, skepticism of religion is largely absent from Irish society, ridicule of it doubly so, even when the ridicule is self-administered. I'm thinking here of the monty-python moment around a year ago, when I was down in Mitchelstown's catholic church for my niece's "confirmation", watching the then-(still?)-Bishop of Cork descending from the altar-area to give his mid-mass lecture, when somebody's mobile phone went off and gave the dead-silent church thirty seconds of ...wait for it... the "muppet show" theme!

> It is not "generally accepted" to make fun of kipots and talits.

Good heavens, why on earth not? Have you seen the guys wobbling back and forth in front of the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem? Or the hasidic guys with the cutesy, curly payos? There are strange and weird rituals in all religions that I'm aware of, and all desperately need to lighten up, and take themselves a bit less seriously

> We must not be skeptical of any popular beliefs, but we can
> be skeptical of what ever is in vogue for us to doubt.

Er, sorry?

KCF

Turley wrote:

Skepticism and ridicule of religion, especially Christianity is popular and safe.

It is not "generally accepted" to make fun of kipots and talits. We must not be skeptical of any popular beliefs, but we can be skeptical of what ever is in vogue for us to doubt. Making fun of the Rosary and Jesus Christ is acceptable with the Irish Skeptics Society.

Do you live on this planet? Skepticism of religion is a sure-fire way to make yourself unpopular with a large majority of the population worldwide. In the last census in Ireland only a few thousand indicated their religion as 'atheist'. I can tell you that people rarely react kindly to being told that their core beliefs about life and its meaning are about as credible as santa claus. My country in-laws have never really taken kindly to my references to the 'cult of the man-god'.

I don't know much about kipots and talits and, whatever they are, I doubt their ideas are too much of a force in Ireland. Why do you mention them? Is your anti-semitism rearing its head again? For what it's worth, I think that the Jewish religion is every bit as ridiculous and inhumane as our native nonsense, and some of their beliefs are particularly stupid, but why on earth would Irish Skeptics preoccupy themselves with beliefs that are utterly irrelevant here?

davros

Before this goes any further in the direction of a general discussion of religion and skepticism, the topic is skeptical material for children.

Turley

davros wrote:

Before this goes any further in the direction of a general discussion of religion and skepticism, the topic is skeptical material for children.

I would recommend that children be read Hans Christian Andersen's, "The Emperors New Clothes." It is a good example of something being "generally accepted" that was demonstrably false. How interesting in this tale the truth was spoken by a child.

I would also recommend children read Psalm 8
"Out of the mouths of babes and infants you have drawn a defense..."

ISAW

davros wrote:

Before this goes any further in the direction of a general discussion of religion and skepticism, the topic is skeptical material for children.

Yes but it was mentioned to confirmation or first communion. As regards the point about skeptics attacking religion I couldn't disagree more. Non destructive cult religions are NOT subjedt to attack by skeptics. Fundamentalists, destructive cults and pseudo science religions ARE legit targets however.

Matter of fact christianity is steeped in logical and rational tradition. Christians produce some groundbreaking cutting edge scientific research and are at the forefront in many scientific fields. The idea that skeptics and proper religions are two opposing groups is a false dichotomy.

I think where the issue of material for kids comes in is comparing say Jesus with Santa. Again the idea of lumping two different beliefs into the one type "things skeptics must attack" is both silly in grouping them together ( particularly with say UFO cults and the like) and in assuming they are a target to be attacked.

ANY material which does not do this and points to rationality is good for kids as I see it. I regret I didnt study logic before I was a teenager. It would have saved me hours with all the bad habits picked up. And there are interesting ways for kids to do this from making circuits to what was that book about knights and whatever other tribe on islands? Raymond Smullyan wrote it I think.

Is it "what is the name of this book?"?

ISAW

Turley wrote:

I would recommend that children be read Hans Christian Andersen's, "The Emperors New Clothes." It is a good example of something being "generally accepted" that was demonstrably false. How interesting in this tale the truth was spoken by a child.

good recommendation

I would also recommend children read Psalm 8
"Out of the mouths of babes and infants you have drawn a defense..."

But not Psalm 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Mind you another source worth reading is the skeptics bible
[url] http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ [/url]

Turley

ISAW wrote:

But not Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

I would not reject Psalm 137:9. Actually it is a useful verse for all children to fully understand, especially since this verse is frequently misunderstood. This is a popular verse used by Muslims, atheists and others to attack the scripture. While few know the context, the original language, and what is said and what is not said here. Knowledge of all sides of an issue is good for children. Thank you for mentioning the important Psalm 137.

robindch

> And there are interesting ways for kids to do this from making
> circuits to what was that book about knights and whatever
> other tribe on islands? Raymond Smullyan wrote it I think.

I believe the book you're referring to is Smullyan's "Forever Undecided" which is an worthwhile outing to the old "Knights and Knaves" style of logic puzzles -- yiz'll be familar with the kind: "You're at a two-way junction in the road; one road leads to town, one into the bog; you don't know if the guy stitting at the crossroads is a knight (always tells truth), or a knave (always tells lies); what question do you need to ask so that you'll always be able to find your way to town?" (etc, etc). The book is available from Amazon and I'm sure, the two bookshops on Dawson street.

In a smilar vein, Hofstadter's mind-dancing Gödel, Escher, Bach should be enjoyable for some kinds of teenagers, though it is perhaps, an acquired taste.

Both are excellent books, but neither are really for kids.

ISAW

http://www.mwls.co.uk/gurus.htm

I know Shell do a teachers pack based on Piaget. Now I don't accept Piaget but the pack is great! for example instead of talking about "dependent" and "independent" "variables". It talks about a "fair test" The piaget bit allows the (13 I think ) modules to be graded according to Piagets concrete opetational/ formal operational model.

found it! CASE
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/education/case.html
http://www.case-network.org/

The aim was to:

INVESTIGATE THE POSSIBILITY OF RAISING GENERAL LEVELS OF THINKING AMONGST AVERAGE STUDENTS AGED ABOUT 10 - 14 YEARS

sextusempiricus

robindch wrote:

All of which got me thinking about skeptic literature for kids -- there are shopfuls of religious nonsense, but nothing that I'm aware of to provide any balance. A quick google doesn't produce much more than this page -- interesting, but incomplete.

Any suggestions?

I doubt if there is much literature your average kid taking his first communion will be interested in. You could always buy him or her an ammonite 170 million years old to balance those creationists who claim all life forms were produced more or less simultaineously less than 10,000 years ago. If you are lucky it might spark a debate.However I suspect they would prefer money for sweets instead. For the older kids ( I'm thinking the early teens) its important to teach them to be critical. The best way is not to be dogmatic with them but for ourselves to have an attitude of reasonableness. Put simply this is an attitude of admitting that 'I may be wrong and you may be right, and by an effort, we may get nearer the truth.' (see Karl Popper's 'The Open Society and its Enemies' Chapter 24). We have to listen carefully to their ideas
and try and justify our own with the best supporting evidence.
If you want book suggestions the following volumes by Stephen Law are at least fun to read and have essays and dialogues with titles like 'Should I eat meat?', 'How do I know the world isn't virtual?', 'Does God exist?','Astrology, flying saucers and ESP','Where did the universe come from?', 'Could a machine think?','Can we have morality without god and religion?','Is Creationism scientific?'.

' The Philosophy Files'
'The Outer Limits'
The Philosophy Gym'