FA asks for extra European place

MrJoeSoap

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/4481805.stm

The Football Association has asked Uefa to give Liverpool a place in next season's Champions League if they win this year's trophy.
As it stands, the FA faces an awkward decision if the Reds triumph but fail to finish fourth in the Premiership.

It could award a place to Liverpool but at the expense of the Premiership's fourth-placed side, probably Everton.

An FA spokesman said discussions had begun, but Uefa has so far indicated another place is highly unlikely.

Uefa chief executive Lars-Christer Olsson told the Daily Express: "There is no way England can have more than four teams so we would refer it to the English FA to make the decision if it arises.

"But normally I would say that it's more important if you are qualified through your national league position than if you have won the competition."

The decision would be made by the FA's main board, in consultation with the professional game board and the Premier League.

Everton are currently four points clear of Liverpool in the Premiership, with a game in hand.

Liverpool play Chelsea in the first leg of their Champions League semi-final at Stamford Bridge on Wednesday.

okidoki987

No way they can give them a place at this late stage.
Wasn't there something last year when it looked like Porto were not going to qualify for the next season's champions league competition?
Makes sense to have the winner automatically get into the next seasons competion even if they finish outside of the places in their league.

spockety

He seems to be basically saying that 4th place in a domestic league is a more impressive feat in European football, than winning the European Cup itself. What a plank.

SCULLY

spockety wrote:

He seems to be basically saying that 4th place in a domestic league is a more impressive feat in European football, than winning the European Cup itself. What a plank.

While I think that it would be bizarre if Liverpool won the cup and weren't around to defend it I think that it would be extreemly unfair on Everton to deny them a spot at this late stage (if they finished 4th of course). Whether 4th spot should be given a cl place anyway is highly debatable but you can't change the rules mid-season. I seem to remember FIFA considering that the winners of the World Cup should still qualify for the next one.

Dont be at yourself

Liverpool don't deserve to qualify, and that's coming from a Liverpool fan. We've had countless chances to close the gap and yet we blew it every single time.

super_furry

The Champions should always be there to defend their title. There's precedence too - in 2000 Real Madrid finished fifth in La Liga, won the Champions League and rightly defended in next season at the expense of Real Zarragoza.

Shred

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

Liverpool don't deserve to qualify, and that's coming from a Liverpool fan. We've had countless chances to close the gap and yet we blew it every single time.

Agreed

SteM

SCULLY wrote:

While I think that it would be bizarre if Liverpool won the cup and weren't around to defend it I think that it would be extreemly unfair on Everton to deny them a spot at this late stage (if they finished 4th of course). Whether 4th spot should be given a cl place anyway is highly debatable but you can't change the rules mid-season.

I agree totally. It would just seem so unfair to Everton if they were dumped out of next seasons CL.

uberwolf

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

We've had countless chances to close the gap and yet we blew it every single time.

how many of those were dropped after european games? The CL has had an impact on their league form. Maybe it shouldn't but it has.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ludicrous if UEFA agree to the extra place and ludricous if the FA deny the 4th placed team the chance to play in the CL. I do not think it will come to a stage where a decision is needed though.

Badabing

SCULLY wrote:

While I think that it would be bizarre if Liverpool won the cup and weren't around to defend it I think that it would be extreemly unfair on Everton to deny them a spot at this late stage (if they finished 4th of course). Whether 4th spot should be given a cl place anyway is highly debatable but you can't change the rules mid-season. I seem to remember FIFA considering that the winners of the World Cup should still qualify for the next one.

They did Brazil have to qualify for Germany

Third_Echelon

The FA seem to not want to make a decision on this and are passing the buck to UEFA to see if they can get an extra place.

I don't see them getting an extra place to be honest, but UEFA's stance is that finishing fourth is a better criteria than winning the CL and finishing outside the qualifying positions...

Seems reasonable to me. If you're not good enough to qualify, you're not good enough to be in the NEXT competition....

Why should the champions be there to defend their title if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for the next tournament??

The last tournament is over, done with. It has no affect on next years tournament.

To be honest, I can only see Milan winning it this year, so I guess this argument is a bit premature at the moment....

The Muppet

Cute Hoors at the FA are playing for time,

I can see both sides of this argument and there is right in both. The holders deserve to defend their championship but then again if thats what UEFA wanted why did they not give an automatic spot to the winners every year?

It would be very unfair not to mention financially detrimental to who ever finished fourth if they were to be excluded. None of us would be happy for this to happen our club.

I don't expect it to come to a decision but if it does it's a toughie but I think Fourth will get it.

Washout

The Muppet wrote:

Cute Hoors at the FA are playing for time,

I can see both sides of this argument and there is right in both. The holders deserve to defend their championship but then again if thats what UEFA wanted why did they not give an automatic spot to the winners every year?

It would be very unfair not to mention financially detrimental to who ever finished fourth if they were to be excluded. None of us would be happy for this to happen our club.

I don't expect it to come to a decision but if it does it's a toughie but I think Fourth will get it.

I originally said in another thread that the champions should go on to defend it if they dont automatically qualify. and i am an everton fan.

But after looking at all the arguements and also UEFA's Chief Executives comments on it I have had a change of heart.

The reason i have done so is if man utd or arsenal had been in evertons fourt spot position there would be absolute uproar if they didnt get the CL place.

Can u imagine Man Utd standing for this kind of situation? and plus would the FA have had the balls to demote them to UEFA? I have serious doubts on that score.

My point is that it would be easy for the FA to choose liverpool over everton and they can use the arguement that liverpool are the bigger club.

World cup winners dont automatically qualify for the next WC so why should it be any different for the CL.

The ultimate blame for this fiasco must lie with UEFA though as after the Real Madrid/Real Zaragozza situation they should have defined a rule there and then.

If there was a rule present then I dont think Everton fans would have much cause for complaint.

The FA could use the above scenario as a case for liverpool but If that happens i think its already been decided by Everton to challenge the decision in the courts. Thats a scenario that the FA are deseperate to avoid. Its all the need is another scandal.

Does any1 else think that UEFA are just biding their time to see what happens in the Chelsea/Liverpool match?

Real Zaragozza didnt get the place and ended up being relegated. had they gotten to the CL they Im sure would have been able to attract the calibre of players that are required for the CL and thus have a strong enough side for the league (in theory anyways)

I too dont expect it to come to a decision but a decision/clarification would be nice.

smemon

wont happen as liverpool wont win the CL or finish 4th.

mike65

Bloody suits!

If, and yes its still a big if, Liverpool win the fuppin' CL I think the play off notion I put forward here would be the most honest resolution. After all finnishing 4th only means you get to play in the 3rd pre-qualifing round when either team might go out. Liverpool nearly made a hash of it this season.

Mike.

BKtje

The two should play each other home and away with away goals couting etc.

Winner takes all* (well the spot)



*realise this will never happen.. but what a game it would be

Dont be at yourself

Play-off would be the tie of the season. I'd love it.

KdjaCL

Uefa says feck off

Way i see it is a cup for the teams that qualify not for the champions to defend.
To be the best in Europe you must finish 4th or higher in your league, seems fair enough to me.


kdjac

opr

KdjaC wrote:

To be the best in Europe you must finish 4th or higher in your league, seems fair enough to me.

kdjac

In 12 years of the UEFA Champions League England have had a winner of the competition only once ( 99 Man U ).

Your tellling me to win this competition is less a feat than to finish 4th in England ?

Plus the precedence is already here as in 2000 Real Madrid finished fifth in La Liga, won the Champions League and rightly defended in next season at the expense of Real Zarragoza.

A Dub in Glasgo

opr wrote:

In 12 years of the UEFA Champions League England have had a winner of the competition only once ( 99 Man U ).

Your tellling me to win this competition is less a feat than to finish 4th in England ?

Plus the precedence is already here as in 2000 Real Madrid finished fifth in La Liga, won the Champions League and rightly defended in next season at the expense of Real Zarragoza.

Are you suggesting that Liverpool should get in ahead of Everton (assuming they get 4th)? If so, why is that any less fair than Liverpool not defending the CL win (should they win it)?

opr

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Are you suggesting that Liverpool should get in ahead of Everton (assuming they get 4th)? If so, why is that any less fair than Liverpool not defending the CL win (should they win it)?

The 4th place team put forward from England is decided by the FA. If an English team win the champions league and finish outside the top 4 they have the right to request that they can defend the trophy. This is in the rules.

Rules

With the precedent already set by what happened in Spain this means that the FA should put Liverpool forward.

A Dub in Glasgo

opr wrote:

The 4th place team put forward from England is decided by the FA. If an English team win the champions league and finish outside the top 4 they have the right to request that they can defend the trophy. This is in the rules.

Rules

With the precedent already set by what happened in Spain this means that the FA should put Liverpool forward.

Your post answered a question I did not ask

Again...
Are you suggesting that Liverpool should get in ahead of Everton (assuming they get 4th)? If so, why is that any less fair than Liverpool not defending the CL win (should they win it)?

The Spanish FA have set a precedence within their own FA not the English FA

Guy:Incognito

the rule state that the fa can put whoever they want into the cl.Theres nothing in the rules to say the top four teams must be entered (or atlest the 3 runners up). They could put West Brom in if they saw fit. Asumptions mean nothing.

Personally I think there should only be one team from each country in it anyway, with the winners defending it.

A Dub in Glasgo

Stekelly wrote:

the rule state that the fa can put whoever they want into the cl.Theres nothing in the rules to say the top four teams must be entered (or atlest the 3 runners up). They could put West Brom in if they saw fit. Asumptions mean nothing.

It is in the English FA rules linked previously with the added clause that they (the EFA) may drop the 4th placed team for a team who won the CL but did not get into the top 4 to enter the following year. They do not not have to though.

1. England is entitled to four places in the Champions League, i.e. the four top-placed teams in the Premiership.

Personally I think there should only be one team from each country in it anyway, with the winners defending it.

Totally agree

opr

Your question was

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Are you suggesting that Liverpool should get in ahead of Everton (assuming they get 4th)? (should they win it)?

I answered - With the precedent already set by what happened in Spain this means that the FA should put Liverpool forward.

Stekelly wrote:

Personally I think there should only be one team from each country in it anyway, with the winners defending it.

Thats something i also agree on.

ButcherOfNog

if everton finish 4th (which i think they will) they should get the CL place. if liverpool win the CL, then they should get the chance to defend it, throw them into the pre-qualifiers somewhere instead of "YJ Zognostasalvia FC" or the like.

Hydromonkey

Maybe it's just me but how could they have the champions league without the champions of europe? Hypothetically of course

A Dub in Glasgo

opr wrote:

Your question was



I answered - With the precedent already set by what happened in Spain this means that the FA should put Liverpool forward.

and the next one... 'why is that any less fair than Liverpool not defending the CL win (should they win it)?'

PHB

Heres the thing, if you added an extra place, which UEFA won't since it would mean the champions get automatic qualification in any country, as its unfair due to Liverpool's ****ness in the league this summer.

----

As for the champions of Europe.
The point is that sicne you qualify by you're previous years result, you won't have the champions of europe in it. Chelsea didn't win it last year, but they have had an amazing year, and have a chance to win it this year.
If you had the champions only, you'd have the champions from last year being in the compo. It could be called Champions of last year League.
This approach ensures that the champions of europe, i.e. the best team in each country, are actually in the champions league, to the best possibly amount

Emmo

To be honest there is only one way to make everyone happy.

Drop United from the Tournement.

so that 1st place gets a spot - Chelsea
Second place - Arsenal
4rth - Everton since they worked so hard to get there.
and Liverpool when they win the damn thing

Thats what would be fair and just but they wont do that.

I would bust a nut watching Gill squirm his way around that one.

Everton should get their chance to give Europe a twirl. We have shown we cannot run a campaign on 2 fronts let alone 3 or 4.

Still though I would be surprised if they dont just wait till just before the final that way they dont have to make any rough decisions!

Emmo

zAbbo

Give everton a uefa cup place, and if pool win, let them defend it.

But lets be honest, the chances of pool winning the champs league are slim, but possible

jesus_thats_gre

Some interesting points...

I don't really think it is ever going to be an issue as I honestly don't believe Liverpool can win it.. However, it's harmless enough to discuss it in the event of the unexpected happening..

The idea of the Champions not defending their title is a little strange but then again, considering the World Cup Winners are no longer entitled to an automatic spot from now on, it makes sense. The problem with this argument is that the World Cup is managed by FIFA.

The CL is managed by UEFA. What is UEFA's stance on automatic qualification for the European Championships. Surely if the winners are assured automatic qualification, then there should be consistency in all UEFA run competitions to avoid confusion.

UEFA should really have dealt with this 5 years ago when Real were put forward by the Spannish FA over Real Zaragoza in 2000. What basis did the Spannish FA make this decision on, was it ever made public? I know Real have a lot of Royal backing in Spain and this could possibly have been the reason..

The only concern I have about Everton going through would be whether it is a wasted space. It is concievable that they will not fare to well as they literally have no european experience at all in recent times. A season in the UEFA Cup this year would have done them the world of good. Remember Newcastle last season...

Mind you, they have to get experience from somewhere so it would be very very unfair to rule them out on the above..

The idea of a play off sounds pretty good to me. Play it over two legs with away goals counting. Would make for a stonker of a match and would mean their is little or no bias in someone having to choose. Let football do the talking as there is many arguments that favour both sides. Both games between both clubs have been extremely close this season also..

When I think about it, I wouldn't be overly bothered if Liverpool did not get it. The year they won the UEFA cup they got the same amount of money as they got from getting to the Quarters of the CL the year before.. The main concern I would have with missing out on the CL is the money (assuming it is missing out on a once off of course), so a good run in the UEFA cup would partially make up for missing out..

Villain

I really really doubt Liverpool will win the CL so I wouldn't get to tied up on it lads.

~Rebel~

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The idea of the Champions not defending their title is a little strange but then again, considering the World Cup Winners are no longer entitled to an automatic spot from now on, it makes sense..

I think the reason the world cup winners don't get automatic qualification any more is cause its too much of an assumption that they'll be any good in the next competition given that its 4 years away. A team could turn into absolute pap in 4 years, so in that context it makes sense.. In the CL its more immediate, generally can't drop too much in a year (unless you're newcastle)

As a 'pool fan obviously want them thru but the fairest way really is the playoff against everton -what a cracker!

Christ, all this discussing has me thinking 'Pool have already won the Champions League!

Third_Echelon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The CL is managed by UEFA. What is UEFA's stance on automatic qualification for the European Championships. Surely if the winners are assured automatic qualification, then there should be consistency in all UEFA run competitions to avoid confusion.

France had to qualify for Euro 2004 after winning Euro 2000.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

UEFA should really have dealt with this 5 years ago when Real were put forward by the Spannish FA over Real Zaragoza in 2000. What basis did the Spannish FA make this decision on, was it ever made public? I know Real have a lot of Royal backing in Spain and this could possibly have been the reason..

Without a doubt that was the reason... Spain's number 1 export/brand not being in the top competition... disaster...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The only concern I have about Everton going through would be whether it is a wasted space. It is concievable that they will not fare to well as they literally have no european experience at all in recent times. A season in the UEFA Cup this year would have done them the world of good. Remember Newcastle last season...

If they've earned the right to be there. Its not a wasted space. Is the CL a big boys club only? Sure look at the world cup for example. There are 'smaller' teams in that tournament, which qualify ahead of team in Europe that finished 3rd in their qualifying group or lost in a playoff. Holland for example, this has happened to...

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Mind you, they have to get experience from somewhere so it would be very very unfair to rule them out on the above..

Indeed.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The idea of a play off sounds pretty good to me. Play it over two legs with away goals counting. Would make for a stonker of a match and would mean their is little or no bias in someone having to choose. Let football do the talking as there is many arguments that favour both sides. Both games between both clubs have been extremely close this season also..

My heart couldn't take a tie like that...

MrJoeSoap

Definitely has to be Everton over Liverpool (supposing, that is, that Liverpool win the CL).

Would be so unfair on Everton if they weren't to get in after the season they've had. Even a play off would be unfair.

MrJoeSoap

Interesting perspective on it here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/4484889.stm

Everton won the league and cup-winners cup in 1985 and were denied European football because of the Heysel disaster...

Washout

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Interesting perspective on it here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/4484889.stm

Everton won the league and cup-winners cup in 1985 and were denied European football because of the Heysel disaster...

Its seen as bad taste to bring up the Heysel disaster.

In a way I feel like Everton are owed big time. The Heysel disaster was the beginning of the demise for everton but then again it was the demise for english football in general until the FA revitilsed it by coming up with the PremierShip.

My feeling is that other clubs in england need to be given oppertunities like this in order for them to become stronger clubs. i know its not always the case. all you have to do is look at leeds being in the CL I feel probably ended up ruining them with the amount of money that they spent in trying to compete.

I know Everton will learn from that kind of mistake. Wyness has already set out a stiff limit on Evertons spending should they qualify for the CL.

Also on finances. Everton are holding off the FSF investment until our faith is known because being in the CL has the potential of attracting bigger and better investors or even an improved FSF offer.

I guess the point Im trying to make is that the financial implications of this decision by the FA on a struggling club like Everton could be huge. it could mean the differance between competing for euro qualaification for the next ten years or it could mean that we go back to being a struggling club again.

PHB

Don't worry, Liverpool havn't beaten chelsea in 3 matches, and even though they played better each time they still didn't win. Do it'll be ok

jesus_thats_gre

Third_Echelon wrote:

My heart couldn't take a tie like that...

Its amazing what you can make yourself believe indeed.. However, in this case it is true.. Liverpool made more money from their UEFA Cup Win than they made from reaching the Quarters of the CL the year before..

For me theire are a number of downsides 1) Not being consistently in the CL year after year and this is needed and 2) Not being as attractive to join for potential transfer targets...

Of course I would prefer to be in the CL but its not the end of the world just yet//

opr

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Of course I would prefer to be in the CL but its not the end of the world just yet//

I think it would be a complete disaster.

In terms of the players Liverpool want to attract we need to be playing in the CL next year.

Fair enough if you win the uefa cup you made good money but for just being in the group stages of the CL you made around 10 million so Liverpool could add this to the transfer budget for this year but they cannot add this money on the basis that we might win the uefa cup.

What ever chance we have of keeping Gerrard will go out the window if we are not playing in the CL next year.

I want to see Liverpool playing against Europes best. I think after the season we have had we all want to see more of Liverpool completing against the likes of Juventus.

Also Europe is were Benitez has shown his teams to be strongest. Another good run in the CL next season would help Liverpool on thier way back to greatest were all Liverpool supporters want us to be.

zokrez

This is all very premature and chances of it happening are slim (I hope I'm wrong though )

Uefa need to spell out new rules:

England to get 3 places plus the winners of champions league (if winners are from England) otherwise additional place, viz a viz, 4th place in league

Spain to get 3 places plus the winners of champions league (if winners are from Spain) otherwise additional place, viz a viz, 4th place in league

and so on.

Play off would be great idea though.

Cant understand why Benitez has made his views public.

Gileadi

i think its a bit premature talking about this personally,im not even going to give it any thought until we see if they actually beat chelsea and what looks like AC from the current scoreline in the other semi

Washout

opr wrote:

I think it would be a complete disaster.

In terms of the players Liverpool want to attract we need to be playing in the CL next year.

Fair enough if you win the uefa cup you made good money but for just being in the group stages of the CL you made around 10 million so Liverpool could add this to the transfer budget for this year but they cannot add this money on the basis that we might win the uefa cup.

What ever chance we have of keeping Gerrard will go out the window if we are not playing in the CL next year.

I want to see Liverpool playing against Europes best. I think after the season we have had we all want to see more of Liverpool completing against the likes of Juventus.

Also Europe is were Benitez has shown his teams to be strongest. Another good run in the CL next season would help Liverpool on thier way back to greatest were all Liverpool supporters want us to be.

and you dont think Everton want to be desperetly competing against the best in europe once again?

andyman

If UEFA give the 5th place if needed, than what happens to Liverpool?

Will the go through auomaticly or will they have to qualify?

If they go through automaticly then it will disappoint Man Utd and Everton.

And also, one team in a different country could miss out on Qualifyers because there would an uneven number entering.

My vote is a Firm NO

sceptre

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The CL is managed by UEFA. What is UEFA's stance on automatic qualification for the European Championships. Surely if the winners are assured automatic qualification, then there should be consistency in all UEFA run competitions to avoid confusion.

As Third Echelon mentioned, France had to go through the qualification process for Euro 2004. IIRC this has always been the case for the European Championships (even back when it was the Euro nations Cup), France won the thing in 84 and didn't qualify for 88 so they weren't in Germany. Obviously this made perfect sense and had to be done when there were only eight teams in the tournament (or four originally I think) but at least there's some consistency there. Before someone mentions the other euro tournaments obviously where that's dumped out the window.

All down to the second leg before the arguments really have a chance of starting I suppose.