Off Licence over 21's bull

melekalikimaka

Can an off licence legally not serve you under the reasons...sorry we only serve over 21's?

Adam

On a further note, can anywhere legally specify over 21's??

LadyJ

No and no but it's civil law so gardai can do **** all

Shyster

as far as i know they cant LEGALLY do it (ie.cant take legal action) but they can choose to only serve over 21s

Blisterman

Yeah, if its a private company, they can refuse whoever they want as long as its not considered discrimination.

chump

Of course they can do it.
Pubs/clubs anywhere can do it, with whatever age they want, once they do it across the board, and they have to have a sign up saying so.

Adam

So if you want in to a pub an the bouncer stops you, checks your I.D., see's your 18 an says sory, over 21's, you cant do anything?

Guy:Incognito

Blisterman wrote:

Yeah, if its a private company, they can refuse whoever they want as long as its not considered discrimination.

Saying over 21's only is clearly age discrimination though.

KieranCasey

It is illegal under discrimination legislation to stop someone of legal age purchase alcohol or enter a licenced premises, however it is up to the individual to prove their age, and a garda id card is the only legal proof of your age acceptable, (even a pasport is not legally acepted!!!!) they can however refuse you on other grounds, i.e they think you may cause trouble etc.....

Lenny

You can be refused, but you have to be show a sign in sight of entering the age that is allowed, and also a drinks price list.
On another note about getting served alchol(cans&bottles) if you're over 18 and have garda id youre legally allowed to purchase it without hassle, unless you have caused trouble before

Tusky

Why would an off licence want to be over 21s anyway ? surely they would love ALOT of buiseness ? I can understand a pub or club wanting an older crowd but an off licence?

Sangre

Never seen a stand alone off licence being over 21s, would be stupid for business. Although I think some supermarket off-licences do it for some reason, probably have been stung before for selling underage.

Blisterman

Off licences aren't supposed to sell you alcohol if you're intoxicated already.

Philbert

KieranCasey wrote:

It is illegal under discrimination legislation to stop someone of legal age purchase alcohol or enter a licenced premises, however it is up to the individual to prove their age, and a garda id card is the only legal proof of your age acceptable, (even a pasport is not legally acepted!!!!) they can however refuse you on other grounds, i.e they think you may cause trouble etc.....

Kieran,

It took you almost two years to make your first post! Congratulations

Mossy Monk

over 23 in Superquinn i think it was. some joke

Our man in Havana

Mossy Monk wrote:

over 23 in Superquinn i think it was. some joke

Ah sure they are only selling bottles of lanbrisco to grannies and grandads. Why would they need anyone buying cider?

Blisterman

Philbert wrote:

Kieran,

It took you almost two years to make your first post! Congratulations

Wow, he must have really meant what he said

maxheadroom

Mossy Monk wrote:

over 23 in Superquinn i think it was. some joke

I actually mailed Feargal Quinn about this a good while ago - even though it looks like they'll only serve people over 23 from their signs, the policy is actually that they'll ID anyone who looks under 23, but you only need to be 18. Or, that was the policy before our beloved McDowell changed the equal status act to make some more equal than others...

kasintahan

AFAIK - A "PRIVATE MEMBERS CLUB" (any place that requires membership OR the payment of an "entry fee" for the same) can refuse anyone they like on age grounds (among others). Fun-Nazi McDowell chaged the legislation on that one.

A "PUB" or "OFF-LICENCE" is not the same and cannot (AFAIK) refuse on age grounds.

All the above is only as far as I know. I'm sure there is some legal head who can clarify (Sangre?).

kas

ExOffender

Lenny wrote:

You can be refused, but you have to be show a sign in sight of entering the age that is allowed

AFAIK it's illegal to refuse people over 18 on the basis of their age. But it's civil law as LadyJ says, so you can't call the cops on them. But it is definitely illegal, private company or no, signposted or no, to refuse an over-18 on the basis of age. Any bouncer telling you that just doesn't like your face, or just feels like being a prick. You have the right to demand a valid reason, but lots of luck tbh.

steveland?

A bar can legally set it's age limit to anywhere between 18 and 21 as long as they have a sign up to say what the age limit is. They lost this law ages ago but the new legislation that came in when the closing time on Thursdays went back to 11.30 reinstated this rule.

Pubs also have the right to refuse you with no reason. So there's nothing you can do about it.

Also this is about the 50th thread I've read on here about the age limit in pubs/off licences...

Our man in Havana

ExOffender wrote:

AFAIK it's illegal to refuse people over 18 on the basis of their age. But it's civil law as LadyJ says, so you can't call the cops on them. But it is definitely illegal, private company or no, signposted or no, to refuse an over-18 on the basis of age. Any bouncer telling you that just doesn't like your face, or just feels like being a prick. You have the right to demand a valid reason, but lots of luck tbh.

The way you deal with them is to object to the renewal of their pub licence. Its the prefered method of knackers who are refused service.

chump

KieranCasey wrote:

It is illegal under discrimination legislation to stop someone of legal age purchase alcohol or enter a licenced premises, however it is up to the individual to prove their age, and a garda id card is the only legal proof of your age acceptable, (even a pasport is not legally acepted!!!!) they can however refuse you on other grounds, i.e they think you may cause trouble etc.....

Complete and utter sh!te

Sangre

The Equality Act (can't remember which one) was amended recently to allow pubs and clubs to refuse entry on age gounds as long as it is applied unilaterally and non-discriminatory (i.e. can't refuse someone by saying their under 21 and then letting a 19 year old in). There must also be a sign outside the establishment stating this policy along with the age.
Also since a club, by definition is a club (as in private) it can refuse for whatever reason and doesn't have to say why. Although I think if it does give a reason it can't be discriminatory...
Think thats pretty much it...

Oh this also applies to off-licenses

DublinWriter

Tusky wrote:

Why would an off licence want to be over 21s anyway ? surely they would love ALOT of buiseness ?

Nope, this is Ireland, remember? *hic*

Guy:Incognito

ExOffender wrote:

AFAIK it's illegal to refuse people over 18 on the basis of their age. But it's civil law as LadyJ says, so you can't call the cops on them. But it is definitely illegal, private company or no, signposted or no, to refuse an over-18 on the basis of age. Any bouncer telling you that just doesn't like your face, or just feels like being a prick. You have the right to demand a valid reason, but lots of luck tbh.

So who can you call, or is it an unenforcable law?

Sangre

I don't if it is in fact civil law or Garda powers on the matter but you can take a civil case seeking damages or specific perfomance etc. Damages would be the most likely result

who007

THERE THERE CHILDREN... don't fuss so! :cool:

Our man in Havana

Sangre wrote:

I don't if it is in fact civil law or Garda powers on the matter but you can take a civil case seeking damages or specific perfomance etc. Damages would be the most likely result

The biggest weapon is the objection to the licence renewal. No Licence no business.

melekalikimaka

so...if i complain will i get anywhere, i spoke to the manager and he started waffling bout the managers discretion crap bla bla, i wasnt drunk and just wanted some beer...sniffle.Super Valu Deansgrange by the way it was... bunch of spas :mad:

quarryman

chump wrote:

Complete and utter sh!te

it took him 2 years of lurking to pluck up the courage to post that.

a bit harsh?

Bottle_of_Smoke

I just don't see why an off licence would do that, a club maybe - they'll keep you out to have an over 21's image, but an off-licence - they're just losing money

Jetpilot

Hey, I actually work in an over 21's off licence so ill try and clear some stuff up.

Stekelly wrote:

Saying over 21's only is clearly age discrimination though.

Nope it isnt, because all the off licences that are 21's are 21's based on the amount of fake i'd's recieved, so we arent saying we cant serve you because you are 21, we are actually saying we cant accept any form of ID with an age under 21 on it.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I just don't see why an off licence would do that, a club maybe - they'll keep you out to have an over 21's image, but an off-licence - they're just losing money

The money lost is nothing compared to the the money that can be lost due to law suits from underage drinking, or being shut down (as happened to another off licence in my area)
__________________

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jetpilot wrote:

Hey, I actually work in an over 21's off licence so ill try and clear some stuff up.



Nope it isnt, because all the off licences that are 21's are 21's based on the amount of fake i'd's recieved, so we arent saying we cant serve you because you are 21, we are actually saying we cant accept any form of ID with an age under 21 on it.


That was prob me, im sorry you couldnt get your beers but the fact is serving you can lose me my job!



The money lost is nothing compared to the the money that can be lost due to law suits from underage drinking, or being shut down (as happened to another off licence in my area)
__________________

It does make sense but it's morally wrong, I sincerely hope you're caught serving someone with a fake ID that says they're 22.

Jetpilot

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I sincerely hope you're caught serving someone with a fake ID that says they're 22.

Thats kinda harsh, im just a part time worker doing a job I have to do to help pay my way through college, its not like the 21's thing was my decision, but i do have to follow the rules.

Bottle_of_Smoke

When I said you I meant your shop.

steveland?

Jetpilot wrote:

That was prob me, im sorry you couldnt get your beers but the fact is serving you can lose me my job!

Thank you! When I was a barman I refused plenty of people who looked over 18 but didn't have ID or didn't have valid or dodgy looking IDs.

I always went by the logic that it's better to refuse someone if there's any form of doubt than get fired because you weren't sure but did it anyway...

I hate when people think that being refused is something personal... it's usually just to cover the pub's own ass.

It's also annoying as hell when people go moaning about being refused when it's well within our rights as barmen to do it (well not anymore... damn unemployment ). Whinging isn't going to change it and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it short of objecting to their licence renewal which is just going to get ignored anyway because the "powers that be" know how difficult it is to spot fake IDs and underagers.

Bottle_of_Smoke

steveland? wrote:

It's also annoying as hell when people go moaning about being refused when it's well within our rights as barmen to do it (well not anymore... damn unemployment ). Whinging isn't going to change it and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it short of objecting to their licence renewal which is just going to get ignored anyway because the "powers that be" know how difficult it is to spot fake IDs and underagers.

No one's moaning about this, if you have no ID and expect to get served you're probably just drunk. We're moaning about being treated like second class citzens because we're between the ages of 18\20.

Justifying it because of fake IDs is just silly, extremely flawed plan. Might work for a while but if every off licence was to do that then everyone on the other side would get fake IDs saying they're 21.

MrPinK

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Might work for a while but if every off licence was to do that then everyone on the other side would get fake IDs saying they're 21.

It's harder for a 16 year old to pretend to be 21 than it is for them to pretend to be 18.

Jetpilot

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Justifying it because of fake IDs is just silly, extremely flawed plan.

The thing is its the truth, there are some problem area (like mine) where fake id's and underage drinking are problems. Being 21's is not an ideal situation for an off licence to be in, we are losing money from it, and I do get physical threats/verbal abuse from people I have to refuse as part of my job description.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Might work for a while but if every off licence was to do that then everyone on the other side would get fake IDs saying they're 21.

But not every off licence will turn 21's, only ones that need to because of trouble in their area. Plus no matter how good an ID is, if you have the slightest inklin that the person isnt as old as it says on the card you can still refuse them without reason.Plus the majority of 16yr olds dont look 21.

Jetpilot

steveland? wrote:

I hate when people think that being refused is something personal... it's usually just to cover the pub's own ass.

Exactly, but its worse in my place, according to my contract I can get sued instead of the off-licence in an underage law suit with the right circumstances. Why would I take that risk that so some stranger can have 6 cans of tuborg?

chump

quarryman wrote:

it took him 2 years of lurking to pluck up the courage to post that.

a bit harsh?

What are you talkin about, there are other boards on here you know.

And as for my comment, he wrote confidently (not stating it was his opinion etc etc..) about something that he was completely wrong about.

kasintahan

chump wrote:

What are you talkin about, there are other boards on here you know.

And as for my comment, he wrote confidently (not stating it was his opinion etc etc..) about something that he was completely wrong about.

Weird - yesterday your postcount read : 1

That's what they're talking about.

MrJoeSoap

Its a police state, don't let them tell you any different.

seamus

Yes, they're all out to get you :rolleyes:

There's nothing more frustrating than being refused when a) you're overage and b) have valid ID, but I think Jetpilot has made the Off-Licences' positions clear and reasonable.

It's less in an off-licence's interests to refuse customers than a club's - A club may have to refuse otherwise legal paying customer because they cause hassle, but if an off-licence refuses any customer they run the risk of being attacked, or having their shop damaged - so I'm sure they don't make these decisions lightly.

At 23, it's been a while since I've had to deal with this

SparkyLarks

I've got to stick up for the off licences here.

Having a valid ID doesn't mean your the person on the ID.
So for an off licence to say over 21's only or 23's only then that's their buisness.

Surely's it's better to have a policy which will accomodate the 21-85 years old age group while stoping under age drinking even if it does impact on the 18 to 21 year olds , instead of a policy which acomadates the 18-85 year olds and has half of the 14 to 18 year old age group drinking.

Victor

Heres the relevant piece of legislation regarding ID & age:

No. 31/2003: - Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003 - Section 15 (ID), Section 25 (age)

DrIndy

I'm 25 and still get occasionally carded - now its a laughing matter and I always get a good chortle by their reaction after I show them my ID...

....yes at 25 I have a garda ID

SparkyLarks

I think " the policy is implemented in good faith" is the ke issue here.

If there doing it because they hate 18 yearolds then it is illegal.
If it's done in the national interest to curb underage drinking it's not illegal