PRIME TIME tonite ON NOW

Longslide45

Irelands Gun culture/criminal gangs. ON NOW on RTE1 21:36
Controlling access,availbility etc.

Longslide45

Ok, not as bad as per usual gun related articles.Concerned more with gangland use of guns.]No mention of the rise in nicked ligit firearms equaling more guns in criminal hands,etc etc.] Ingram mac10s seem to be becoming a fav in shootings in gangland.Quoted statistics seem to be year 2000 and that the pool of illegal weapons is the same, but folks are more ready to use them.Be intresting to know the estimated number of weapons out there.

Intresting prices quoted for illegal weaponary in Dublin inner city.
500 euros for a 9mm plus 50 euros per bullet [Rippoff Ireland at it's best ]
200 "" for a chopped 12ga plus 10 euros per shell
150 "" for a unchopped shotgun 10 euros a shell

Not much in solutions,and usual political point scoring discussion.

Watch it on RTE website primetime section.

civdef

Was fair coverage of the problem, dealt soley with the criminality aspects of it, no mention at all of legal ownership.

Aid the Blade

Intresting prices quoted for illegal weaponary in Dublin inner city.
500 euros for a 9mm plus 50 euros per bullet [Rippoff Ireland at it's best ]
200 "" for a chopped 12ga plus 10 euros per shell
150 "" for a unchopped shotgun 10 euros a shell

the price increase must be as a direct result of the new sawning of the barrel offence.ha

Sparks

And today...

FRIDAY 22/04/2005 14:22:10
Limerick Gardai renew appeal on firearms

Gardai are renewing their appeal for public assistance following a recent spate of burglaries in the west of the county.

At least five legally held fireams have been stolen in the last week from both private homes and farmhouses.

It`s feared these guns may be used by criminals elsewhere in the near future.

Superintendent Eddie Mac Eoin of Askeaton Gardai says they need help from members of the public.

BlackDot

Happened to turn on the TV at the right time. Was very interested in the details put forward by the community activist particularly prices. Real shame that the politician could make no positive contribution to the debate. Here's a question for the board:

- If you were Minister for Justice or a Garda, what steps would you take to cut back gun crime?

Its very easy to find a problem, not so easy to find a practical solution.

Tougher sentences.........well thats in the pipeline.
Reduce criminal guns in circulation by:
1) Making sure legal ones aren't becoming illegal ............. gun safes.
2) Raids -> need more Gardai -> better info.
Better info -> need help from public.
Help from public -> Better Garda/civilian relations.

I think this was the point the activist was making. As well as early intervention.

It sounds simple but it takes time, a lot of money and probably a complete overhaul of the prison system (particularly juvinile).

How could things ever get into the mess they are now???

Those are my few thoughts, what of the rest of the shooting population?

civdef

Anyone caught with an illegal firearm should go to jail for an awfully long time. Most of the scumbags running around with guns are repeart offenders.

Sparks

I don't think the legitimate shooting population is going to have too many novel insights into criminal legislation, since they're not criminals, or police in most cases. But civ's got the right idea - the statistics from america show that the vast, vast majority of those arrested there for gun crimes are repeat offenders. The NRA's been saying for years that committing a felony should be grounds for never, ever being allowed own a firearm again.

I'd add the idea that there should be independent oversight and evaluation of gardai when applying firearms laws, but I couldn't give you specifics, not being a garda, of how that would work in term of organisations.

And there is the argument that streamlining the current paperwork setup for legitimate firearms owners would free up garda manhours to be spent on controlling illegal firearms abusers...

Aid the Blade

but a criminal by very definition is a criminal.making senntances longer or tougher isnt goin to deter him from committing a crime where the benefits are just too high such as bank/securicor van jobs or taking out a rival in th drug industry.that kind of money will always outweigh the risk of mabey gettin caught.
i do think that the criminal justice system is in dire need of overhal especiall the juvenile one.them little gurriers know they can get away wit urder
(literally) until they are over 14 so wat kind of effect does this have on their psyche and confidence when they grow up.they become more effecient at an earlier age cos they know all the tricks and loopholes.
i think something has to be done about the parents attitude,thay dont give a fu*k cos more often than not they spend the whole day in the pub/off licence.ive worked in an off licence in a scummy little area and i saw the same little tonkers gettin up to all sorts of violent crime every day while either one or both their parents came in every day to buy drink or were doen the local round the corner.and that my friends is where a substantial amount of your tax money goes.fundin this lifestyle.it sickens me.my father wored hard every day of his life since he was 16 never even went on a holiday ot even for his honeymoon and this is what the government do with his and your money.they're either being fed and housed in jail or fed and housed on the dole.(scumbags now,not everyone on the dole)
sorry to harp on

Longslide45

-

If you were Minister for Justice or a Garda, what steps would you take to cut back gun crime?

You would NOT want me as minister for Justice!!!

Its very easy to find a problem, not so easy to find a practical solution

Indeed,however you have to also be the one who is going to stand up and say the buck stops with me ,and I am going to have to be the fellow who bells the cat.

Tougher sentences.........well thats in the pipeline

More a case of enforcing law that is already there.The criminal shortning of a shotgun barrel below 24ins has been with us since 1972,and thats pretty much it for law.you need somthing along the Swiss example of a mandatory non parole eligible 20 year sentence for use of ANY type of firearm in a crime,be it a black painted banana or an RPG 7 rocket launcher.Also you need to make sure the sentencing policy is ENFORCED.
Now you have a problem ,it is up to the Judge of the trial to sentence whomever to a term appropiate to the law broken.If you have a minister making it mandatory that the judge has to sentence for a certain crime.You dont then really have a independant judicary then,and a re a good way down the road to a dictatorship.
Also remember judges and lawyers bleed as well.They themselves realise that they can be got at as well by criminals and subversives,or their families.I dont know if this has actually happened yet here.But I would say that there is enough circumstanial evidence to suggest that this might be possible in certain cases.Sure they can get protection,but for how long?Only for the time of an actual threat,not for life.
Also it comes down that we dont have the time,money or places to lock up all the bad guys/gals.Plus there are a lot of people in jail that shouldnt be in there in the first place.EG old ladies who cant afford to pay a TV liscense,drug users,etc.Trouble is there is no alternative in irish law to sentencing them to imprisonment.
Fourthly we really have no serious deterrant to not commit crime.By that I mean there is no real threat to your life,liberty or limbs not to do somthing nasty.
.

Reduce criminal guns in circulation by:
1) Making sure legal ones aren't becoming illegal ............. gun safes

A good idea,but not the cure all.And in some cases maybe a bad idea.Having alot of guns stored in one box.When maybe a dispersal of them around a house might be a better idea.Or if you have over a certain amount you need an appropriate safe to store them in?If they want to get them they will.
Alarms are fine if you have a quick response time,but if it takes a squad car an hour to find your place in the country,or worse some "security patrol" to amble out and discover a broken window,radio it in and wait for the Gaurds to show up.Your guns and most of your house contents are looong gone.

I do admit that some of us shooters have been neglient,like the cases of Farmer Brown parking his gun in the barn for ten years and not seeing it since and reliscensing it every year.Not realising it had been stolen six years previously.Wether this is an archroypal[sic] tale or not,is open to debate.However it also has done somthing crazier INMHO,now everyone has to go to the Garda station with their guns to have them inspected!!A perfect target for any criminal aufe with the situation.Why not send the Garda around every year to inspect the gun and reissue the liscense there and then?

.

2) Raids -> need more Gardai -> better info.
Better info -> need help from public.
Help from public -> Better Garda/civilian relations

On whom or what?Criminals dont generally have their cut down shotgun hanging over the mantlepiece Gangs are usually very very small tight groups or family members and to infiltrate somthing like that well I would like to meet the undercover agent who will do it.It would take years,and possibly one undercover person dedicated to getting into this group.Most info on these things is garnerd by plea bargining of the caught criminal with the police force.Easier to have somone controlled on the inside than trying to get a stranger in. Do you need more Gaurds,apart from replacing those that retire no.You need to give them better pay,better career prospects,better equipment,quicker promotion,a major root and branch overhaul of the system weeding out the bad apples,and an independant police force inspectorate ala NI with teeth.Which would sort out the somwhat the civ/garda relations.However you also have to get over a major thing inbred into Irish people over generations that to be seen helping the "powers" is somhow being a tout or ratting on your own.Also you have got to show that anyone who helps the police in a trial or whatever will be protected by the law.
Will this happen?Not unless there is a major sea change in Irish society.
.

How could things ever get into the mess they are now???

A lot of factors over many years in Irish and Western society.Which had very little to do with guns.

Sparks

Longslide45 wrote:

Indeed,however you have to also be the one who is going to stand up and say the buck stops with me ,and I am going to have to be the fellow who bells the cat.

Whatever about cats, the health ministry has already shown that buck-stopping isn't something that current Ministers seem to want to do...

More a case of enforcing law that is already there.The criminal shortning of a shotgun barrel below 24ins has been with us since 1972

Er, no, it hasn't. It has never been a criminal offense to have a shotgun with a barrel shorter than 24 inches so long as you had a licence for it. It's been policy from 1972 to last summer to not grant licences for them, but as you said yourself glock, there were exceptions to this.

Also it comes down that we dont have the time,money or places to lock up all the bad guys/gals.

And nimby protests over every new jail site proposed...

Fourthly we really have no serious deterrant to not commit crime.By that I mean there is no real threat to your life,liberty or limbs not to do somthing nasty.

Whatever about threats to liberty, threats to life and limbs are not things we want, for two reasons. The first is that they're irreversible, and as events from Birmingham to Donegal to Illinois have shown, you can't trust the state's evidence all the time. The second is that in cases where guilt is proven, the death penalty is only justice if you believe in divine justice. So to an atheist, there's little or no point to it. And what's a chopped-off limb going to do except create another person that will find it far harder to work to feed him/herself?

A good idea,but not the cure all.And in some cases maybe a bad idea.Having alot of guns stored in one box.When maybe a dispersal of them around a house might be a better idea.

I'm never going to buy that idea. Whatever about having a club's firearms dispersed amongst its members' homes instead of stored in one unoccupied building, the same argument doesn't apply on the smaller scale of having firearms scattered around your home. It may well be that I'm biased from having lived in a house with children and firearms for a while, but to my mind, if it's not locked up then it's a potential risk.

Or if you have over a certain amount you need an appropriate safe to store them in?If they want to get them they will.

I've seen "appropriate" safes for larger numbers of firearms (several fullbore rifles in this case). Believe me, if they want to get them, they're going to need plastic explosives, a forklift truck, and god's own angle grinder.

And yes, those safes are expensive. And no, not everyone needs them (not everyone has seven or eight rifles and ammunition to store). But no, it's not unreasonable to want someone to have secure storage for a firearm - even the NARGC has said so on the record. These things we use aren't toys, if you want to use them, you've a duty of care to other people.

Why not send the Garda around every year to inspect the gun and reissue the liscense there and then?

Well, there's the manpower issue (any idea how many licences your local garda handles? I know that it's up in the thousands for mine); there's also the issue of it overruling your constitutional right to privacy - without a warrant or just cause, no garda can enter your premises without your permission, even under the new changes in the criminal justice bill 2004. And shoud he refuse to grant you a licence without entry to your home to inspect your rifle, then he's breaking the law and opening himself to lawsuits from about twenty different directions at once from the ICCL to the NARGC. And if he stands at the door and you bring the rifle out, you can be darn sure that everyone in the town will know that you've got a rifle by the end of the week, given our gossiping nature (one of the reasons I don't mind people knowing who I am and that I shoot is that they already know - the local garda turned up at my door to fix some paperwork in the riot van. I've never seen so many curtains move so much in all my life...).

And all this is assuming that you're even there when the garda calls around, which may be difficult to arrange unless he works nights and you work days and you make an appointment. And the idea of around 100,000 to 150,000 appointments all over the country... well, I'd hate to see the garda petrol bill after that!

However you also have to get over a major thing inbred into Irish people over generations that to be seen helping the "powers" is somhow being a tout or ratting on your own.

Whatever about the police ombudsman idea (which is definitely overdue), this belief that following the rules and reporting criminal acts is somehow being a "rat" is something that's not just unhelpful, it's positively dangerous and we're as guilty of it as everyone else and that's scary. It's dangerous because it's why the Hungerford shootings happened (Ryan had shot at neighbours with an air rifle and been disciplined at work for carrying around a loaded pistol in his belt; had either been reported to the police, he'd have lost his FAC there and then). And we're guilty of it because we've developed this "us and them" mentality when it comes to the gardai. We've probably all heard stories at one time or another of someone doing something illegal, whether it's to do with firearms or not, yet the idea of reporting whomever it was to the gardai is anethema, and even the idea of repeating the story in public is heavily frowned on (hell, just look at what happened when we opened the "I learnt about shooting from that" thread in here!). I'm not saying we need to turn in our parents to the secret police here; but we do need to start policing ourselves more and in the more serious cases (where life was put at risk), we need to start making it official (and I can just see the reaction to that idea already...).

Longslide45

Er, no, it hasn't. It has never been a criminal offense to have a shotgun with a barrel shorter than 24 inches so long as you had a licence for it. It's been policy from 1972 to last summer to not grant licences for them, but as you said yourself glock, there were exceptions to this.

The 16in 1897 Ex RIC Winchesters? Right,but how many are out there?They are collecters pieces and were proably liscensed since the foundation of the state.Wonder what would happen if you brought in a Chinese Norinco copy of one.?It's this damn "policy of ambiguity"that causes so much trouble here.Either it is legal or it is not!

Whatever about threats to liberty, threats to life and limbs are not things we want, for two reasons. The first is that they're irreversible, and as events from Birmingham to Donegal to Illinois have shown, you can't trust the state's evidence all the time

Has happened in every Judical system,none are perfect and every lawyer of any judical system will tell you such.

As for the death penalty and your point of religious belifs.A hole in the ground is A LOT cheaper than keeping a homicidal or padeophilic scumbag alive with three squares a day and a approved standard of living.[Thats my opinion,not very PC ,]but this is why we have such a godawful mess where the criminal has more rights than the victims.


Think you are biased there Sparks.I didnt say keep the damn things loaded and lying around!
How about dissembling them and hiding them in various parts of the house?Also the first thing you should be doing with kids is educating them to the danger of firearms.When I grew up my father kept ALL his guns loaded in the house.Being Ex US Marine corp he belived that an unloaded gun was a useless gun.I only ONCE touched one,and I took dinner standing up for a week after,because my ass was sore from the beltin I got.Needless to say this was pre PC progressive Dr Spock child rearing times.But it worked,so much to the point that by ten years of age I was allowed to have my own 410 and by twelve I was allowed to use any of my Dads guns.What I am saying is you have to teach kids responsibility and what is right or wrong.Seemingly a task most parents neglect or are unwilling to take on.Hence the reason I will never have kids.

I've seen "appropriate" safes for larger numbers of firearms (several fullbore rifles in this case). Believe me, if they want to get them, they're going to need plastic explosives, a forklift truck, and god's own angle grinder.

SOP on the Continent
And YES they have been nicked too.Remember the case in Birmingham[?] where this shooter had one in an apartment police approved ,alarmed etc The crooks jacked it out from the wall and then CARRIED it down four flights of stairs in full view of the neighbours.The police did him despite their approval of the safe for negligence!!How do you win on that??

And yes, those safes are expensive. And no, not everyone needs them (not everyone has seven or eight rifles and ammunition to store)

If I had eight grand worth of guns,i wouldnt think 900 Euros too expensive
But you are right they are expensive here,due to rippoff Ireland attitude here.But you can also get just a strong door& frame and turn a walkin closet etc ,into a strong room.For about the price of a mild steel gun cabinet.

. .

These things we use aren't toys, if you want to use them, you've a duty of care to other people.

If you can get THAT reasoning applied to the motoring public of this country I would belive you quicker!Considering the way some people leave their vechicles in a criminal state of maintenance and just today I saw one park,leve her car [03 BMW]door open with the engine running,nip off into a shop for ten mins,WITH HER TWO KIDS crawling around in the front seat,back seat,drivers seat!!!When I mentioned this minor fact to madame when she returned to her car.I was politely told to F&*K off and mind my own busisness!!I really wish I was an undercover cop somtimes. :mad:
Ok a hopefully extreme and not common example.But you consider that a car is more leathl than a gun anyday ,we have more idiots with cars than guns here,and they have a higher death toll.

Well, there's the manpower issue (any idea how many licences your local garda handles? I know that it's up in the thousands for mine);

Appx 800 for a three man sub station.

there's also the issue of it overruling your constitutional right to privacy - without a warrant or just cause, no garda can enter your premises without your permission, even under the new changes in the criminal justice bill 2004. And shoud he refuse to grant you a licence without entry to your home to inspect your rifle, then he's breaking the law and opening himself to lawsuits from about twenty different directions at once from the ICCL to the NARGC. And if he stands at the door and you bring the rifle out, you can be darn sure that everyone in the town will know that you've got a rifle by the end of the week, given our gossiping nature (one of the reasons I don't mind people knowing who I am and that I shoot is that they already know - the local garda turned up at my door to fix some paperwork in the riot van. I've never seen so many curtains move so much in all my life...).

Thats not what I meant at all.Plus the fact there is a difference between,warrented entry,or an invitation to stand in your hall and discuss the matter.Of course if you want all your curtain twitching neighbours to know your busisness[Another unfortunate Irish habit,having to know everyone elses busisness].Do the busisness in an open place.Of course if you are cutting up a key of heroin and invite him in to the kitchen and he arrests you at oh dark hundred the following morning.Well, you only have yourself to blame.To put it pithly if you have nothing to hide..... Plus I DOUBT very much that ICCL would touch anything firearms related.I got short shrift once from them regarding assistance on getting the handgun liscenses back in the 90s.
Ya see we are all unequal but some of us are more unequal in the eyes of the "civil libbers"

And all this is assuming that you're even there when the garda calls around, which may be difficult to arrange unless he works nights and you work days and you make an appointment. And the idea of around 100,000 to 150,000 appointments all over the country... well, I'd hate to see the garda petrol bill after that!

In this modern age of communications I cant see the trouble of arranging a appointment suitable to both.Plus remember it is THEY who wanted this,not us!So let them do somthing for it.Either way WE pay with us driving to the station and put ourselves at risk with being robbed of our guns. Or We pay for Garda petrol and time in our taxes.It's not as if there is one man doing all Ireland.Plus it is better PR for them,as well as that it gets a Garda out and to know his beat area better.Not only that more folk are more likely to talk about somthing bothering them in the comfort of fammilar surroundings than down in a garda station.

Better still why not just do it like on the Continent?YOU are liscensed for a certain time period or in some cases bar criminal activity for life.You only see the police when you add another gun to your liscense.
BUT you are then charged with serious responsibilities then.
Gun is stolen and you were negilent in its security or storage..liscense gone for a period decided by a court
Drunk driving.... liscense gone for the time you are off road.

Whatever about the police ombudsman idea (which is definitely overdue), this belief that following the rules and reporting criminal acts is somehow being a "rat" is something that's not just unhelpful, it's positively dangerous and we're as guilty of it as everyone else and that's scary. It's dangerous because it's why the Hungerford shootings happened (Ryan had shot at neighbours with an air rifle and been disciplined at work for carrying around a loaded pistol in his belt; had either been reported to the police, he'd have lost his FAC there and then). And we're guilty of it because we've developed this "us and them" mentality when it comes to the gardai

We've probably all heard stories at one time or another of someone doing something illegal, whether it's to do with firearms or not, yet the idea of reporting whomever it was to the gardai is anethema, and even the idea of repeating the story in public is heavily frowned on (hell, just look at what happened when we opened the "I learnt about shooting from that" thread in here!). I'm not saying we need to turn in our parents to the secret police here; but we do need to start policing ourselves more and in the more serious cases (where life was put at risk), we need to start making it official (and I can just see the reaction to that idea alreadyQUOTE]

Well, you cant have your kayak and heat it [As the Eskimo discoverd when he tried to light a fire to keep warm whilst out fishing in his kayak. ]
We either want law and order,therefore the police will tell you they need intel to operate on,therefore we have to start speaking up.Of course it has to be valid ,not nusiance and vexatious back stabbing petty nonsense.
But then the police have to ACT on it as well.No point in saying ahh we havent the time,tis nothin serious etc.We have to strike a happy balance in society,and it isnt too dificult to do.

Sparks

Longslide45 wrote:

The 16in 1897 Ex RIC Winchesters? Right,but how many are out there?They are collecters pieces and were proably liscensed since the foundation of the state.

Doesn't matter if there's one or one hundred thousand, they're still legal!

How about dissembling them and hiding them in various parts of the house?

Seems a lot more akward to me. Although having the bolt in a second lockbox inside the main safe wouldn't be too bad. You can even get these small lockbox things that read fingerprints so you don't even have to get a key (and they're not going to cost too much either).
Thing about akward is that if it's very akward, eventually you're not going to do it just that once when you get home late and are exhausted - and invariably, thanks to Finagle's law, that's when it all goes sideways on you. Having a single secure gunsafe, maybe an internal lockbox for the bolt, and a seperate lockbox for the ammo - that's about as good a solution as I can think of, really. Not that expensive either, not for just the one rifle (the lockboxes would be a little under a hundred euro for the pair, the safe between one and two hundred euro - small change compared to the cost of the rifle!).

And YES they have been nicked too.Remember the case in Birmingham[?] where this shooter had one in an apartment police approved ,alarmed etc The crooks jacked it out from the wall and then CARRIED it down four flights of stairs in full view of the neighbours.The police did him despite their approval of the safe for negligence!!How do you win on that??

I'd really want to see the full transcripts on that case, it sounds utterly unbelievable!

If I had eight grand worth of guns,i wouldnt think 900 Euros too expensive

Exactly.

If you can get THAT reasoning applied to the motoring public of this country I would belive you quicker!

Utterly understandable attitude, but it wouldn't get you very far in any argument with the powers that be!

Appx 800 for a three man sub station.

Of which only one garda will probably be assigned to licences, so he has several hundred (probably not 800 as some people own more than one licence) trips to make, and legally they'd all have to be made before August 1. The manpower costs alone would be awful, and every taxpayer would be paying for them, so they figure they'll bring us to them and that way only the firearms users pay for it. It's not a very nice piece of reasoning to find yourself on the sharp end of, but there is a kind of logic in there.

In this modern age of communications I cant see the trouble of arranging a appointment suitable to both.

Well, assuming working hours permit it, true - but the thing is that the principle of the garda coming to your door under the current law is the problem itself, not the logistics involved!

Longslide45

I'd really want to see the full transcripts on that case, it sounds utterly unbelievable!

Have to dig out some old copies of GUNS REVIEW for you.But it was an unbeliveable story...but true!