Preflop Decisions

Iago

Down to 10 players in a MTT, top 9 get paid. blinds at 600/1200 and you have $13.5, 2 stacks on the other table have $5.5 and $6.5 respectively, after that you're short stack

you're playing 5 handed on the table

Hand 1.

On the button you have K8s, one limper in front of you plus the blinds, call raise or fold?

I folded, SB completed and the Flop came down KK8, limper went all-in and both blinds folded

Hand 2.
Next hand you have J9o SB, BB and player in front of you min raises, call raise or fold?

Again I threw this away, flop came down KQT rainbow and the BB took it with a pot bet

Hand 3.
UTG you have QQ, call, raise, fold?

I raised to 6K happy to take the blinds, except the big stack on the table came in from the button over the top and put me all-in..

I didn't want to call because I just knew he was holding AA, however a number of considerations came into play

1. The two shortstacks on the other table had just doubled through leaving me in a precarious position.
2. By raising to 6K I had pot committed myself, with only 7.5K left I couldn't really afford to fold and wait for a better time, after all there were only two hands that were ahead of me.
3. If I fold here then I'm not really looking to win the tournie, just finish in the money, I don't think that's a viable strategy.

So I called and he turned over AA, no help and I went out on the bubble. Apart from not folding to the reraise I don't think I played any of these hands particularily badly. Should I have played them differently, was it bad luck or bad play?

mathie

I went -

Call
Fold
Raise


I don't think you can really we faulted. The flop was very nice to you on the first two hands though!

ionapaul

I went -

Fold
Fold
All-In I wouldn't want a caller there, just want to steal the blinds (or double up if possible of course) and scare any of the larger stacks with AK etc off the hand. You never mentioned the other stack sizes, but assuming the bigger stacks are many multiples of your $13.5, I think QQ is a do-or-die moment. But that's me, get to a lot of final tables live but never finish 1st, and I admit that I enjoy pushing more than any other move on the table!

biteme

Iago wrote:

Hand 1.

On the button you have K8s, one limper in front of you plus the blinds, call raise or fold?

fold unless you think by a raise you will be able to rob the blinds and limpers call. K8 isn't a particularly strong hand and you don't really know where you are after the flop apart from some miracle flop. There's no reason to bleed away your stack in this situation when you'll probably be broke to the final table soon enough anyway. Raise or fold. Depends if you can rob or not.

iago wrote:

Hand 2.
Next hand you have J9o SB, BB and player in front of you min raises, call raise or fold?

fold, it's too much of your stack and your out of position.

iago wrote:

Hand 3.
UTG you have QQ, call, raise, fold?

Raise it up a little. Be happy to take the blinds if it happens or else push on a board with no A or K. By Raising about half your stack the table knows your committing yourself to this hand and this is your time to double up



Possibly this is a little conservative but i am a rock

Hectorjelly

Calling with K8 on the button there would be very bad indeed. An argument could be made for pushing but the default move would be to fold. What flops is beside the point.

Shortstack

I presume this is VC? If so the deck is constantly shuffled based on random stuff including your actions so the flops in the first two cases may not have happened had you got involved.

Last hand you should have moved all in. still the same result but you should get out of the habit of worrying about sneaking into the money. The bubble is the best time to get chips. Sometimes you will be caught out and left with nothing but the times you are not you will win more money. With the way tournament payouts are structured you should be aiming to sacrifice small payouts in leui of big ones. I am known for bubbling a lot but I also convert a lot to wins, most of those wins have come from not worrying about finishing on the bubble!

Culchie

Shortstack wrote:

I presume this is VC? If so the deck is constantly shuffled based on random stuff including your actions so the flops in the first two cases may not have happened had you got involved.

QUOTE]

What do you mean Mike?

Waylander

5 handed on the button, depending on the other players involved I would probably have made a call with K 8, unless I was concerned one of the blinds would come back at me. The second hand I would have folded preflop. Ther third I would have gone all in, as shortstacked you have to try to double up.

Shortstack

Culchie wrote:

Shortstack wrote:

I presume this is VC? If so the deck is constantly shuffled based on random stuff including your actions so the flops in the first two cases may not have happened had you got involved.

QUOTE]

What do you mean Mike?

The deck on tribeca is constantly shuffled and it takes random information such as electronic noise, player chat etc to determine the next card. It means no-one not even an employee of tribeca can see what the next card is.

Other sites shuffle the deck before each deal and the flop will be the same whatever.

Culchie

OK... I won't go there.

So, should I chat alot or keep quiet?

Shortstack

It will make no difference as it is one of many things that help to randomize the cards.

Iago

Shortstack wrote:

Last hand you should have moved all in. still the same result but you should get out of the habit of worrying about sneaking into the money. The bubble is the best time to get chips.

I agree, to be honest my raise was designed with the hope of getting someone with Ax or 88,99,TT into the pot and then push on the flop, failing that I was happy to take the blinds.

The only question was should I have folded to the re-raise, I knew I was massively behind but felt obliged to call..just in case. The problem is had I flat-called, or min raised I'd of called anyway, I can't see a way that all my chips wouldn't have ended up in the pot either pre or post flop...

Shortstack

You cannot play QQ any different when a shortstack. You cannot be sure the big stack has AA or KK. Ok so he did this time but big stacks will come back over the top a shortstack with a lot less. You have enough to release if you really were sure he had AA but like I say, most times you will be favourite.
It is just unlucky to run one big hand into another at a crucial stage.

Samba

On the first hand there was nothing but limping I would have raised considerably to steal the blinds there and then.


Hand two, min raise, looks like a pathetic attempt to steal, I would have re-raised here again to pick up what's on the table.

People then get scared to limp with you possibly going into the pot.

And the sb will start folding to your bb in fear of your aggression (unless he is dealt a monster)

Let them know if they want to see a flop with you, you are going to force them into an uncomfortable decision.

Every final table I have made I have done so by stealing and pure bluffing.


If people brand you as a rock, they will be very weary to call any raise you make and you can go without having to even show a hand for quite a lengthy period.

In order for the raises to be successful you would have to have a very tight table image.

Hand three you have to raise it, there is no decision about it.

It's alot of pot stealing/well timed bluffs coupled with pure aggression that will win you the tournament or get you high up the money.

Sitting back and waiting for AA just does not work in tournaments.


Having said that there is a fine line between pot stealing and bluffing, too much and players will start to disbelieve the strength of your hand.

ionapaul

The dos and don'ts of bubble / final table all-ins facinate me. I have noticed that some players, good players, fail to recognise others changing gears towards the final stages of a tournament and will allow their blinds to be stolen, despite holding large chip leads and premium hands.

NickyOD

Hand 1.: Call. You're getting 3-1 to see a cheap flop here and you've got great position oin the hand.

Hand 2. Fold.

Hand 3. All in, There's no point in not putting in all of your chips here straight away. Since you're short stacked, any raise leaves you pot committed and you can only be afraid of AA/KK. If you walk into one of those then that's just unlucky, shrug your shoulders, and go play a cash game.

Hectorjelly

In hand 1 he has less than 10 bbs and you think he should limp! With K8s no less. Am I missing something?

Iago

Normally at this stage of a tournament it's the perfect time to steal blinds and make moves, people are nervous about going out on the bubble after playing for a couple of hours and are less likely to call you as a result.

I would normally steal and raise a lot at this stage but with reasonable hands, I have to say that for the first two hands there was no way I could it. All it takes is someone to come in over the top of me and I have to fold the hand. I don't think flat calling was an option either, I can't afford to lose those chips if I don't hit on the flop so I think I have to raise or fold. Particularly with the second hand, min-raise can normally be construed as weak but 5 handed you might min-raise with AA, KK or AK hoping that one or either of the blinds will call you and increase the chips you will win from that pot. At least that was my thinking anyway, even had he only limped I'd probably have mucked J9 anyway, at that stage of a tournament with the stack I had, J9 isn't a playable hand.

For the last hand, I weighted up my options. I could flat call, but that would give Ax and the blinds excellent odds to play and maybe outdraw me. Is it worthwhile to flat call and hope they hit enough to play but not enough to beat me? I didn't think so..

So, do I go all-in then? That will probably get me the blinds, but in 4 hands if I don't hit playable cards those chips will most likely be gone and I'll be back where I started.

If I raise it up to 3-4*BB then maybe AQ, AJ,AT,JJ,TT,99,88 might come along for the ride and if the flop is kind then I'll be in a strong position (no stack had more than $45K so if I could move myself up to $20-$25 I would be in a great position to win it) that's the decision I made and my rationale for raising rather than going all-in.

As it turned out I was in a whole world of trouble whatever way I played it, but I think if I was in the same situation again, I'd make the same initial raise...

Samba

With the K8 it's raise or fold, you got the bubble in the end did you not?

So ultimately there would have been no harm i trying, hindsight is another thing of course.

Personally with such a short stack I would rather play to win regardless of the bubble rather than try and sneak in to the money.

You had a limper and the blinds to deal with...very unlikely someone is going to come over the top unless the limper came in with a monster hoping for a raiser again this is very unlikely, he is looking for a cheap flop....he got what he wanted.

By re-raising with J9, your intention should not be to catch a nice flop it should be a preventitive measure of even allowing a flop to be seen.

Although your stack is low, remember the bubble is at stake and you are less likely to be called.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

In hand 1 he has less than 10 bbs and you think he should limp! With K8s no less. Am I missing something?

He has 11BBs. It's 5 handed, he is 3rd in chips at the table, and has the other 2 shorties well coveried. K8 suited is a playable hand on the button and he's getting a good price for it. The players in the blinds will not raise after 2 limpers have come in without a big hand so its easy to get away from preflop. Postflop he has the advantage of being last to act. Calling here is a must in my view.

Corben Dallas

Hand1
Raise twice what the guy b4 put in only to about 2/2.5 big blinds
** u have to get value out of this hand if u have limpers after u might be in trouble

Hand2
Fold (only ever contemplating goin with a hand like this as a last stand casu yur shortstaked

Hand3
ALL IN!! what do u mind theres thinking involved!! loler not wait, er quietly push all yur chips in ** that ought to freak em out

NickyOD

Corben Dallas wrote:

Hand1
Raise twice what the guy b4 put in only to about 2/2.5 big blinds
** u have to get value out of this hand if u have limpers after u might be in trouble

He's already getting 3-1 to limp in. Rasing and missing the flop means you've just built a bigger pot for someone else and you've left yourself with less pushing power. Any player worth his salt would recognise this as weakness and come back over the top of you knowing full well you would have pushed with something decent.

Krusty_Clown

Hand1: Call, but do it very quietly by stroking the keys very gently so that you don't influence Tribeca's flop-randomizer.. Also hold your breath..

Hitman Actual

Why are people still saying that you call in hand 1... that seems very fishy to me. I can see some merit in pushing, but even with that I'd rather have 89 or 9T. I really can't see any way that calling with K8 here is even close to being the right move.

Shortstack

Calling in hand 1 is only any good if you are prepared to push on the flop if no-one else takes a stab. It's either All in preflop and you are likely to get one caller or fold.

Hectorjelly

With 10 Bbs or so you really shouldnt be limping with any hand, if it were KQs I would understand the attraction; but K8s?

Shortstack

Hectorjelly wrote:

With 10 Bbs or so you really shouldnt be limping with any hand, if it were KQs I would understand the attraction; but K8s?

Exactly. (oops I just agreed with HJ!)

NickyOD

You might be at only 11BBs but there are 2 players at the table with half that. You could only be called by a hand that badly dominates you. It would be wreckless to push here with 2 other players very short and players behind you ready to pounce, although it really all depends on the payout structure at this point. It would be optomistic to hope for a caller with 22-77. With the price you are getting here I definitely want to see a flop with this hand. Why would you risk everything now on a 60/40, 70/30 situation when there are 2 players already crippled. Without a doubt you are getting +EV by limping here and -EV by pushing. Folding is probably better than pushing.

Imposter

lenny_leonard wrote:

Why are people still saying that you call in hand 1... that seems very fishy to me. I can see some merit in pushing, but even with that I'd rather have 89 or 9T. I really can't see any way that calling with K8 here is even close to being the right move.

But if you somehow knew you were going to flop a fh then it would be right!

The 2 shorter stacks are on the other table.

NickyOD

Imposter wrote:

The 2 shorter stacks are on the other table.

Whoops! In that case it all depends on the payout structure.

Waylander

I think limping in hand one is the best bet as if the blinds come back over the top you can still lay it down. If you raise and someone comes over the top you already have a third of your stack in there and are down to 7 or 8 big blinds and in real trouble. Limping in from the button here would not be a bad play to my mind.

Shortstack

Limping shorthanded is WEAK WEAK WEAK !!! you can only lose chips this way. This hand has only been remembered because it was folded and would have hit the flop big. You should cover the call button with tape when you get shorthanded. Raise or fold.

I'm sat in the big blind of this hand and there are 2 limpers and the SB makes 4800 sat out there for the taking. I am raising big here - what are you gonna do with your K8 now? You may be beating my 7 2 but you can't call.

Why would players limp short-handed? Because they are holding weak hands, there are not enough players to risk limping with AA ot KK and getting it cracked by 3 6 when no-one raises for them to reraise.

K8 is a hand for mucking or stealing. It is junk. Having said that if you are third shortest stack because you have been playing tight then there is a good case for moving in preflop and increasing your stack by 30% when they all fold to your tight image.

biteme

I'm in agreement with HJ and shortstack.

its just stupid here to call, why bleed away your stack with crap hands like k8

raise to rob or fold. calling makes no sense

Hitman Actual

Yeah, calling is just plain crazy. Even if you do get to see a flop, there are very few flops that K8s is going to like.

NickyOD

What were the payouts?

Shortstack

NickyOD wrote:

What were the payouts?

Unless it is a satellite the payouts will always mean that 1st - 3rd are what you should be aiming for. Sneaking into the money is -EV in the long run. I would rather bubble 9 times and win once than sneak into the money 10 times. Most payout structures would mean I win more than twice as much that way - all buy ins equal of course.

NickyOD

I stupidly assumed this was a live event. Is it online? Shortstack probably right, limping is a bad idea. In a live event if you've got a good read on the table I think limping is fine here though.