Child Molesters/Sexual Predators

Magnolia_Fan

With ever growing number of dangerous sexual predators abducting young children pretty much globally now a days, what would be a viable penalty?..I think personally it should be a prison sentance and castaration if the crime is against young children. I think it would definately make these sick f'ks think twice before they act. Anyone else have an opinion on how they should be punished?

MrPudding

Magnolia_Fan wrote:

...........sick f'ks think twice before they act. Anyone else have an opinion on how they should be punished?

I think you have managed to, inadvertently I think, hit the nail on the head. For the most part the perpetrators are actually sick. I mean sick in the proper sense of the word. I think it is widely accepted now that child molesters do suffer from a mental illness or at least a “defect.” Abuse of children is an incredibly emotive subject and I think very hard to discuss rationally. I have a problem with mentally ill people being punished for crimes they may not have been able to stop themselves from carrying out. I feel the same way whether it is someone who is mentally ill stealing something, killing someone, assaulting someone or molesting a child.



I have never been the victim of molestation nor have either of my children, this allows me to look at it in an objective way. I like to think that even if circumstances were different I could still hold the same opinion, but I am not sure I could. So, I my cosy objective line of thinking it come down to “mad or bad” for me. I a person is unable to control their urges, due to mental illness, I don’t think they should necessarily be punished. I think they should be treated, if possible. Of course there will always be those that cannot be treated. I don’t really know what to do with them, I suppose long term incarceration is an option. I am sure we will get many very inventive things to do with them suggested as this thread develops.



I do not believe anyone should have their life or any of their faculties removed as a punishment. There are too many cases of innocent people being convicted of crimes they are not guilty of.

Eoghan-psych

Exactly. By all means isolate offenders from society [as we do with *all* sick people] and treat them.

Retribution - the old "get the sick *&%£ards" approach - is just plain silly. It doesn't help the victims, and it doesn't help the perpetrator. It's stupid and pointless.

Nevyn

Chemical castration, a lobotomy and put them to work sweeping the streets.
Simple really if you don’t get over emotional about it. This way they are no longer a danger but can lead a productive life with some quality.

Memnoch

in a lot of cases i believe such people are those who have themselves been the victim of such crimes when they were children.

I'm not sure if there is a link or if it's unclear but there seems to be some kind of desensitizing process that normalises the whole concept of paedophilia for these people.

The real question to ask however, is why weren't these kids treated when they were young (presuming it's possible) for such violence committed against them. More importantly, who is responsible for these people turning into adults without ever having recieved some kind of treatment for what happened to them.

It's easy to point a direct finger at them and sentence them to whatever. But it seems like further victimisation of people that may have been victims themselves. But i think the focus should more be on prevention. Perhaps also to encourage people with such urges to commit themselves to treatment before they harm someone.

Prevention is much more likely to protect children than any threat of punishment. After all capital punishment in many countries hasn't had a positive effect on the crimes it's supposed to prevent.

Dinner

I agree with MrPudding. Child molesters do need help.

While some sort of punishment is probably required, I dont think death or castration is the way to go. Mental help is what sould happen.

pork99

If one group of criminals needs to be electronically tagged it's child molestors. They should get any treatment available but they should also be obliged to wear electronic tags all the time.

I'm not saying their movements should be known to the general public (don't want any more mobs attacking the homes of paediatricians) but their local police should know exactly where they are 24/7.

MrPudding

Thaed wrote:

Simple really if you don’t get over emotional about it.

Which is exactly what you are doing, getting over emotional.

MrP

MrPudding

I like tagging. I think it is a great alternative to jail for petty criminals.

I think it is an excellent idea for child molesters, in conjunction with treatment.

MrP

Nasty_Girl

I think there was a thread similar to this before.....

Nevyn

In some cases treatment will help if the person was a victum when they were a child; other then that Pedophilia is a sexual orination.
You can no more deprogram them then you could deprogram a hextrosexual.
But you can ensure they dont offend ie ruin a child and a families life, and with out locking them away and making us pay silly amount of money for it, ie see my post above.

Zombrex

Magnolia_Fan wrote:

With ever growing number of dangerous sexual predators abducting young children pretty much globally now a days

Are we sure there actually is a growing number, or is it just we now have Sky News and we notice more?

Magnolia_Fan wrote:

I think personally it should be a prison sentance and castaration if the crime is against young children.

What would castaration do? It doesn't stop from sexually assaulting a person.

People who commit violent crimes due to mental illness, be they sexual or not, should be given rebuilation. Simply locking them up does nothing.

Magnolia_Fan wrote:

I think it would definately make these sick f'ks think twice before they act. Anyone else have an opinion on how they should be punished?

You talk as if it is a rational choice they make. Having a harsh punishment will not stop someone because they do it out of instinctive need not out of rational. Likewise simply locking them up will not make them reconsider what they were doing. It doesn't work like that

pretty-in-pink

Hard to know if the amount of kids being abducted or abused is rising, its only know really we are finding out what happened in the sixties and seventies, and every so often the eighties,

This thread is nearly exactly what we had before.

For the purpose of the argument could I get a definition of what we say a child is (age range) and what we say an adult is.

Evil Phil

Thaed wrote:

In some cases treatment will help if the person was a victum when they were a child; other then that Pedophilia is a sexual orination.
You can no more deprogram them then you could deprogram a hextrosexual.
But you can ensure they dont offend ie ruin a child and a families life, and with out locking them away and making us pay silly amount of money for it, ie see my post above.

They are pedophiles not pedosexuals. While they do get sexual release from the abuse they inflict its about power and the infliction of suffering. They are deviants, not sexually oriented. But lets say it is a sexual orientation: At what age does it stop being a sexual orientation and become rape? I don't think rapist is a sexual orientation either.

landser

Magnolia_Fan wrote:

With ever growing number of dangerous sexual predators abducting young children pretty much globally now a days, what would be a viable penalty?..I think personally it should be a prison sentance and castaration if the crime is against young children. I think it would definately make these sick f'ks think twice before they act. Anyone else have an opinion on how they should be punished?

Firstly, there is no evidence that child molesatation or child abduction is any more prevalent now than before. As Wicknight said above, News Corp. may want you to be afraid, but you shouldn't. Your child is more likely to be killed by a donkey than abducted... if you are worried about this happening to your kids, stop... overprotection of children and not allowing them out of one's house/sight is something which the public at large should be more concerned by. we could be creating a generation of paranoid social recluses.

secondly, the threat of castration will do nothing to prevent molestation, no more than capital punishment was ever shown to deter the act of murder. Further, the molestation of children is as much about domination as sex and castration will do little to help this. If you wanted a medieval punishment that works, you'd be better off cutting off their hands so they couldn't feel up the kids

Likewise, while tagging is attractive, it may be a little ott. how long do you tag for... in finitum??

Prison and rehab of some sort is the best option. I have no problem with capital punishment of corporal punishment myself, when it can be shown to be a deterrent...unfortunately it almost invariably is not

Kernel

Wicknight wrote:

Are we sure there actually is a growing number, or is it just we now have Sky News and we notice more?

Well, it's impossible to answer that one for certain, since in the olde days records were not kept as thoroughly as today.

Wicknight wrote:

What would castaration do? It doesn't stop from sexually assaulting a person.

Castration would put an end to their ability to function in a sexual manner, and with that, often the sexual desire itself is gone.

Wicknight wrote:

People who commit violent crimes due to mental illness, be they sexual or not, should be given rebuilation. Simply locking them up does nothing.

Where do you draw the line with the mental illness excuse. If someone likes raping women, or murdering people, and they feel compelled to do these things, then are they mentally ill or just evil people?

Wicknight wrote:

You talk as if it is a rational choice they make. Having a harsh punishment will not stop someone because they do it out of instinctive need not out of rational. Likewise simply locking them up will not make them reconsider what they were doing. It doesn't work like that

You talk as if these people are mindless automatons who have no control over any actions they take. I think that is rubbish, people always have a choice, and they always make the choice. Indeed, with child molestors they often groom potential victims and elaborately plan the crimes far in advance of carrying them out. That is hardly a moment of madness, it is premeditated, and they make many choices along the way to carrying out these deeds. locking them up will at least offer a measure of protection to society.

Zombrex

Kernel wrote:

Well, it's impossible to answer that one for certain, since in the olde days records were not kept as thoroughly as today.

Well by "olde" I mean the 60s,70s,80s not 12th century.

Kernel wrote:

Castration would put an end to their ability to function in a sexual manner, and with that, often the sexual desire itself is gone.

I am sorry but that shows a lack of understanding of what pedophilia is, or what castration actually does. Castration would do nothing to stop it.

Kernel wrote:

Where do you draw the line with the mental illness excuse. If someone likes raping women, or murdering people, and they feel compelled to do these things, then are they mentally ill or just evil people?

"Evil people" exist only in movies. The concept of "evil" is stupid and counter productive when applied to sexual predetors. It ignores the fact that a lot of these people have mental illness that causes them to desire these things, a mental illness that can often be helped with rehab. Calling them evil and saying it is their fault is all about the blame game, which does nothing to actually solve the problem that you have a person who desires to sexual assault people.

You can blame the pedophilie all you want, you can call him evil and tell him he is going to burn in hell. But it won't do anything to stop him doing it again. Rehab can, possibly, prevent reoffending. Why would you not want to put these people in rehab? Rehab isn't a reward, or something that the offender enjoys. It is not done for there benefit, it is done to stop them reoffending which is for our benefit.

Kernel wrote:

You talk as if these people are mindless automatons who have no control over any actions they take. I think that is rubbish, people always have a choice, and they always make the choice.

And..?

Saying they had a choice and there should be punished for the choice they made is all well and good, but it only works to prevent re-offending if the person then because of the punishment has the ability to decide not to do it again. An example would be a kid steals a car, does a year in prision and says hated that won't steal a car again. That doesn't work with mentally ill sexual offenders. Firstly they often never believe they have actually done something wrong. Secondly they have a desire to commit these crimes which cannot be controlled as easily as you believe. They need rehab to help them control it and to realise what they are doing is wrong, otherwise they will reoffend, even if they risk prision time.

Kernel wrote:

Indeed, with child molestors they often groom potential victims and elaborately plan the crimes far in advance of carrying them out. That is hardly a moment of madness, it is premeditated, and they make many choices along the way to carrying out these deeds. locking them up will at least offer a measure of protection to society.

I have never said it was a moment of madness. It is nearly always premeditated, planned and often carried out in high risk. The risk is sometimes part of the kick. That is even more reason why the threat of prision does not stop these people, so punishing them for there "choices" does nothing to stop them from making the choice again.

Kernel

Wicknight wrote:

I am sorry but that shows a lack of understanding of what pedophilia is, or what castration actually does. Castration would do nothing to stop it.

No, I do understand the psychology behind it, the control etc. etc. But many of these sexual predators are driven by a sexual desire. If castrated they will no longer have this sexual desire. In the same way as Eunuchs of old were castrated to stop them indulging in the masters harem.

Wicknight wrote:

"Evil people" exist only in movies. The concept of "evil" is stupid and counter productive when applied to sexual predetors. It ignores the fact that a lot of these people have mental illness that causes them to desire these things, a mental illness that can often be helped with rehab. Calling them evil and saying it is their fault is all about the blame game, which does nothing to actually solve the problem that you have a person who desires to sexual assault people.

You can blame the pedophilie all you want, you can call him evil and tell him he is going to burn in hell. But it won't do anything to stop him doing it again. Rehab can, possibly, prevent reoffending. Why would you not want to put these people in rehab? Rehab isn't a reward, or something that the offender enjoys. It is not done for there benefit, it is done to stop them reoffending which is for our benefit.

You really ought to come down from the clouds and live in the real world. Of course evil people exist. Our definition and understanding of evil as a concept may be open to interpretation, but amoral and bad people exist, so where does your idea of mental illness end? We (society) have accepted standards of what is right and wrong. People with a grotesque disregard for this behaviour are known as evil people. But you are getting into another discussion for humanities here, so I digress.

To a large part we are all ruled by our brain chemistry, so anyone who commits any bad acts is just mentally ill? The yob who stabs a pensioner, the racist who beats an ethnic minority member to death, the man who kills a small animal for the fun of it etc etc. Are they all mentally ill too? The mentally ill card gets played far too often in our justice system imo.

Rehab is great if the person going to rehab is willing to change, and if they are not driven by a compulsion. Many of these deviants are serial offenders after all. Get real man!

Eoghan-psych

Kernel wrote:

You really ought to come down from the clouds and live in the real world. Of course evil people exist. Our definition and understanding of evil as a concept may be open to interpretation, but amoral and bad people exist, so where does your idea of mental illness end? We (society) have accepted standards of what is right and wrong. People with a grotesque disregard for this behaviour are known as evil people. But you are getting into another discussion for humanities here, so I digress.

The point was that 'evil' is an adjective, not a noun. It can only be used to *describe* behaviour, not explain.

The yob is evil *because* he stabbed the pensioner, he didn't stab the pensioner *because* he is evil.

Kernel

Eoghan-psych wrote:

The point was that 'evil' is an adjective, not a noun. It can only be used to *describe* behaviour, not explain.

The yob is evil *because* he stabbed the pensioner, he didn't stab the pensioner *because* he is evil.

Ah come on, you want to go down that road? Explain it.. hmm.. nature (genes/brain physiology) + nurture (mommy didn't show enough attention, dad was a bastard etc.) = Evil bastard || Normal person. Who can factor all the variables into the equation as to how it happens, but it does happen.

Evil can be a noun too, and we use it to explain lowlife anti-social degenerates. Are you really so pedantic?!

Zombrex

Kernel wrote:

No, I do understand the psychology behind it, the control etc. etc. But many of these sexual predators are driven by a sexual desire. If castrated they will no longer have this sexual desire. In the same way as Eunuchs of old were castrated to stop them indulging in the masters harem.

Castration prevents someone from actually having sexual activity, it doesn't prevent sexual desire, as anyone with a fixed dog who continues to hump table legs will tell you.

Kernel wrote:

You really ought to come down from the clouds and live in the real world. Of course evil people exist. Our definition and understanding of evil as a concept may be open to interpretation, but amoral and bad people exist, so where does your idea of mental illness end?

"Good" and "evil" do not exist in any logical or scientific manner that can be applied to the actions and motivations of someone. It is just a lay term we use to describe things we find horrific. Dismissing someone or someone's actions as simply being "evil" is pointless and ignores the actual causes and effects of the situation. You saw this a lot with the school shootings in America. People couldn't understand how kids could shoot other kids in such cold blooded manner, so they simply dismissed the kids as "evil" as if evil is a medical condition. It completely ignored the reasons the kids did what they did and how their environment had warped their humanity, and sense of right and wrong. And most importantly it ignored how to stop it happening again.

Kernel wrote:

To a large part we are all ruled by our brain chemistry, so anyone who commits any bad acts is just mentally ill?

I am not quite sure what you mean by "just mentally ill?"

Would you say the guy who stabs his mother was just a psychopath with parainoid delusions? Or the woman who shoots her 4 kids and then herself was just bi-polar manic depressive?

There is no just about it, the mental condition of the person is the reason they do these things.

Kernel wrote:

The mentally ill card gets played far too often in our justice system imo.

I am not quite sure where you got this idea that the "mentally ill card" lets people away with these things. It doesn't. If you blow your wifes head off because you think she is actually a demon from the 3rd realm of hell you are obviously very mentally disturbed but you still spend your life in a maximum security wing of a mental hospital.

Kernel wrote:

Rehab is great if the person going to rehab is willing to change, and if they are not driven by a compulsion. Many of these deviants are serial offenders after all. Get real man!

What you said is almost exactly back to front.

Prision is great if the person going to prision is willing to change and if they are not driven by a compulsion. Otherwise prision is pointless.

Rehab is the only way effect the mental illness that acts as a compulsion to reoffend, and rehab is the only way to make the person understand what they are doing is wrong and hurts other people.

Eoghan-psych

Kernel wrote:

Evil can be a noun too, and we use it to explain lowlife anti-social degenerates. Are you really so pedantic?!

I'm not being pedantic, I'm being sensible.

Once you use something nebulous and vague like 'evil' to explain behaviour you are shutting down attempts to actually understand it. You are making the situation black and white when it is plainly grey.

Why, for example, do many [and possibly most] pedophiles *never* even *contemplate* contact offending?

Why are there so many child molesters who are *not* pedophiles?

The world and the people who live in it are *far* too complex to use binary concepts like 'evil' to explain them. The notion of evil is what's known as an explanatory fiction - a reified adjective.

Eoghan-psych

Wicknight wrote:

I am not quite sure where you got this idea that the "mentally ill card" lets people away with these things. It doesn't. If you blow your wifes head off because you think she is actually a demon from the 3rd realm of hell you are obviously very mentally disturbed but you still spend your life in a maximum security wing of a mental hospital.

Precisely - an explanation is *not* an excuse.

Kernel

Christ.. the Whacko Jacko fans are out today.

I never said evil was a scientifically proven concept. It is a term that applies to an individuals personality and behaviour measured against the yardstick of civilisation - normal accepted behaviour. There are many variables which account for someone becoming an evil ****, as I mentioned. - nature/nurture.

So, if every bad man out in the world and in prison is mentally ill, we should have no capital punishment at all? Sure, we can just *treat* them all in mental hospital. Is that what you guys are saying? I think you're living too long in the intellectual realm rather than the real world fellas.
:rolleyes:

Kernel

Wicknight wrote:

Castration prevents someone from actually having sexual activity, it doesn't prevent sexual desire, as anyone with a fixed dog who continues to hump table legs will tell you.

Wrong, the personality of the animal in question is transformed... usually to a much more placid creature. Would work a treat with all those nonces!

Eoghan-psych

Kernel wrote:

Christ.. the Whacko Jacko fans are out today.

I never said evil was a scientifically proven concept. It is a term that applies to an individuals personality and behaviour measured against the yardstick of civilisation - normal accepted behaviour. There are many variables which account for someone becoming an evil ****, as I mentioned. - nature/nurture.

So, if every bad man out in the world and in prison is mentally ill, we should have no capital punishment at all? Sure, we can just *treat* them all in mental hospital. Is that what you guys are saying? I think you're living too long in the intellectual realm rather than the real world fellas.
:rolleyes:

Last I checked, we *already* have "no capital punishment at all".

Yes, these people should all be treated in a mental hospital. A secure, locked mental hospital. As has been stated previously.

There are no "whacko jacko" fans here. Nobody here is advocating anything other than serious action action child molesters.

Zombrex

Kernel wrote:

So, if every bad man out in the world and in prison is mentally ill, we should have no capital punishment at all?

Well for a start we don't have any capital punishment.

Secondly, in America where they do, you cannot execute someone who does not understand what they did. That does not necessarily apply to all mentally ill people. A sex offender can understand they are hurting the other person but do it anyway. The nearly all certainly understand what exactly they are doing.

Kernel wrote:

Sure, we can just *treat* them all in mental hospital. Is that what you guys are saying?

Answer me this Kernel. What purpose to society does it serve by not treating a sex offender in a secure mental hospital or mentally ill wing of a prision?

If the sex offender re-offends when they are released could you say to the victim that has just been sexual assaulted that you are very sorry it happened but you really don't really think society should attempt to stop it from happening again.

Zombrex

Kernel wrote:

Wrong, the personality of the animal in question is transformed... usually to a much more placid creature. Would work a treat with all those nonces!

That is to do with the realising of testorterion (sp?) produced in the animal's balls. Testosterion does not control the type of sexual and repression desires experienced by a sexual offender. Removing testosterion does not even completely remove normal sexual desire. It can lession sexual desire and aggression but does not completely remove it, especially in humans.

MrPudding

Kernel wrote:

The mentally ill card gets played far too often in our justice system imo.

How often exaclty does it get played? You say too much, how much is too much? Can you provide figures as to exactly how much it is played? If it is played *a lot* should we have a quota?

Judge- Sorry mate we have filled our nutter defense quota for this month
Defendant- But I am actually mentally ill, here are my records.
Judge- Sorry mate more than my jobs worth.

Yeah I suppose that might work.

I am actually interested in how often it is used. I have no idea myself. I look forward to reading the figures you have used to base your "far too often" opinion on.

MrP

pretty-in-pink

Having read a lot of books on this (and similar matters), I can say with confidence that most child molesters act on a physco-sexual urge. They might not fancy children(undoubtedly some do fancy children), but they get sexual release from the mere act of causing someone else pain.

Not to be confused with masochism, this is rather how they have come to express themselves. Most of them have been brought up in abusive, neglectful homes- and can only "get off" when they are in that coveted position of power. Most of them also eventually get off on the very things that were used to abuse them.

Case-Study:

Convicted killer(and a whole bunch of other stuff) in England. People were shocked by his crimes, and it was found he did suffer from mental illness. Interestingly, he wasn't born with it, his mind fractured due to the traumatic childhood he had. His mother was a prostitute, he was frequently abused by clinents of hers and his many "step-fathers". He had a pretty horrific life, but was still trying to be good. On top of all his home problems, he got bullied at school and on the streets, due to his neglected condition(smelly,dirty clothes etc). When eventually removed from his home, he was passed from foster home tp foster home. People thought he was stupid, and were generally quite horrible to him. He finally snapped, and went on his crime sprees, nice lad by day but by night he was dangerous. Now he wasn't evil, but he was very very sick, not an excuse for his crimes, but rather a reason.

If we were to investigate a sexual predators(indeed any criminals)background, then we can try and help them.

There is also a distinction between those who are pushed into doing something (think co-ercive persuasion), and those enjoy what they do. Example of the former being Myra Hindley and the latter being Ian Brady.

People who perpetrate these crimes need help, and drastic actions such as castration will not remove the urge, its about power and control. Thats what governs their sex drive. They don't even need to touch the person to get off. Castration would only remove a "weapon", it would not remove the intent.

Nasty_Girl

naughty_girl wrote:

Case-Study:

Convicted killer(and a whole bunch of other stuff) in England. People were shocked by his crimes, and it was found he did suffer from mental illness. Interestingly, he wasn't born with it, his mind fractured due to the traumatic childhood he had. His mother was a prostitute, he was frequently abused by clinents of hers and his many "step-fathers". He had a pretty horrific life, but was still trying to be good. On top of all his home problems, he got bullied at school and on the streets, due to his neglected condition(smelly,dirty clothes etc). When eventually removed from his home, he was passed from foster home tp foster home. People thought he was stupid, and were generally quite horrible to him. He finally snapped, and went on his crime sprees, nice lad by day but by night he was dangerous. Now he wasn't evil, but he was very very sick, not an excuse for his crimes, but rather a reason.

Was that story covered in the "Children Who Kill" book?
It sound familar

Kernel

Wicknight wrote:

Answer me this Kernel. What purpose to society does it serve by not treating a sex offender in a secure mental hospital or mentally ill wing of a prision?

If the sex offender re-offends when they are released could you say to the victim that has just been sexual assaulted that you are very sorry it happened but you really don't really think society should attempt to stop it from happening again.

No, of course you should try to stop it from happening. We just disagree on the best method to do this. I favour the method of incarceration or possibly trying castration. Both are forms of treatment to protect society. Keep them in a mentally ill wing of a prison if you want, once they are locked up I couldn't care less.

Castration would be a nice touch though.

MrPudding

Kernel wrote:

Castration would be a nice touch though.

The only occasion I can think of where castration would be a nice touch is where you, Kernel that is, are wrongfully accused of a sexual crime. You are subsequently found guilty and castrated. After a few year of growing tits you are able to prove that you are infact innocent. Yeah, yuo are right. That would be a nice touch.

MrP

MrPudding

Kernel wrote:

Bah, get a life you pedantic arsehole. I couldn't be bothered providing you with figures and proof, I have other things to do lad. Good luck with your psycho-sexual problem.

EDIT: I fully expect to get banned, but dealing with this kind of nonsense so early is too tedious for me, so knock yourself out mod. I'd keep an eye on Mr.Pudding though, from other posts of his, he seems to be a bit 'dodgy'.

There really is no need for this. If you think something is used too much I don't think it is pedantic for someone to ask for the figures you base your opinion on. Maybe that's just me though, being dodgy and all.

MrP

Zombrex

Kernel wrote:

I favour the method of incarceration or possibly trying castration.

Well I think it has been established that castration doesn't prevent the problem ( you seem to favour it more on the grounds of revenge and punishment than an actual solution to future re-offense) and would also open a mine field of legal questions (for a start what if you castrate someone who is innocent).

And incarceration does nothing either, unless you impose life sentenses for everyone. Otherwise when the person gets out, with no form of treatment or rehab they are very likely to re-offend as the underlying mental illness has not been tackled (and probably been made worse by a stay in prision)

Kernel wrote:

Both are forms of treatment to protect society

Neither of which work at actually protecting society, so there seems very little point to them.

Zombrex

Kernel wrote:

I couldn't be bothered providing you with figures and proof

Then you should probably state that your original assessment, that criminals are claiming to be mentally ill "to much" (which implies they weren't in pervious years, and that they are not actually mentally ill), is based solely on your own opinion, not on actual evidence, and as such carries very little weight on this thread.

zenith

Kernel banned for arsehole comment.
Now he won't have to fret about wasting his time.

Evil Phil

I hate to play the link card but could somebody provide some evidence that pedophiles are actually mentaly ill? Or even tell me what illness they are suffering from?

Outside of this thread I've never heard it before, not that I'm disputing it - just trying to stay informed.

MrPudding

Evil Phil wrote:

I hate to play the link card but could somebody provide some evidence that pedophiles are actually mentaly ill? Or even tell me what illness they are suffering from?

Outside of this thread I've never heard it before, not that I'm disputing it - just trying to stay informed.

Fair point.

This is from the American Justice department, quite interesting:

http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/163390.txt

This has a lot of info and outlines the characteristics pedophiles and a small bit about treatment:

http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZUZRUZGLC&sub_cat=355

I hope these help you. As I have said before it is a very emotive subject, but not simply a black and white one.

MrP

Eoghan-psych

Evil Phil wrote:

I hate to play the link card but could somebody provide some evidence that pedophiles are actually mentaly ill? Or even tell me what illness they are suffering from?

Outside of this thread I've never heard it before, not that I'm disputing it - just trying to stay informed.

DSM-IV - the "bible" if you will of mental illness - classifies pedophilia as a paraphilia, defined by recurrent intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger) over a period of 6 months or more.

It need not involve *any* contact offending for diagnosis, and specifically excludes relationships between two young people.

MrPudding

Eoghan-psych wrote:

DSM-IV - the "bible" if you will of mental illness - classifies pedophilia as a paraphilia, defined by recurrent intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger) over a period of 6 months or more.

It need not involve *any* contact offending for diagnosis, and specifically excludes relationships between two young people.

The 2nd link I posted give the relevent sections, if anyone wants more detail.

MrP

pretty-in-pink

Nasty_Girl wrote:

Was that story covered in the "Children Who Kill" book?
It sound familar

Yup, it was indeed. I was going to use Mary Bell, but decided againnst it.

Ian Brady was probably one of the closest things to evil the world has seen. His attraction to young teenagers/children was less about sexual urges and more about terrifying them and hurting them. He planned all the kidnappings and killings, eventually roped a relative of his into coming(this is how he got caught BTW). He had Myra under his thumb- she wanted to do whatever she could to keep him happy. He definatley used coercion, or at least persuasive coercion, to get her to go along with him. He was a sex-killer(well he couldn't really let them go after what he did to them), and she was his monkey.

As for those who molest/abuse children- thats how it starts, but it graduates up. From looking at pictures to actually having relations of some sort with a child. Yet again, its rarely about the sex, but rather about the power and "revenge". They are sick people, beyond any shadow of a doubt, but most were probably abused or horrifically neglected as children- and so need counselling to help them deal with their pain- and to help them try and reform.

To be clear, I am not saying "aw poor little perverts". What I am saying is that most of these perps have been victims to, and probably need pity as well as help. Can anyone here imagine feeling so bad about yourself that you have to hurt children to feel good? Or having been so abused, that you eventualy end up abusing yourself and others? (several child-sex offenders/killers (predominantly male) have done things like put batteries up their own anus and those of their victims, which is generally indicative of similar/identical abuse through their childhood)

In short Jail time without therepy wouldn't work, it would further compound the problem(many child sex offenders have been in trouble with the police,and some have been put into reform. houses,but due to lack of investigation as to what made them turn to crime in the first place, they didn't recieve any help, and they were sent back to the same abusive enviroment they had been "rescued" from. This made their problems worse,and they were less likely to get help having been branded as a trouble-maker). As for castration, its generaly not a sexual urge(though it can be)to have relations of any sort with children, but rather a physcho-sexual release following seeing someone vunerable in great pain,fear or dibilitation), so castrating someone would not work. At all.

MrPudding

naughty_girl wrote:

In short Jail time without therepy wouldn't work, it would further compound the problem(many child sex offenders have been in trouble with the police,and some have been put into reform. houses,but due to lack of investigation as to what made them turn to crime in the first place, they didn't recieve any help, and they were sent back to the same abusive enviroment they had been "rescued" from. This made their problems worse,and they were less likely to get help having been branded as a trouble-maker). As for castration, its generaly not a sexual urge(though it can be)to have relations of any sort with children, but rather a physcho-sexual release following seeing someone vunerable in great pain,fear or dibilitation), so castrating someone would not work. At all.

I think you will find the people proposing castration etc have no interest in trying to "cure" the offenders. When you say that jail time with no therapy would do no good they don't actually care. They would prefer that the offenders either stay in jail for good, get castrated or put to death. The though of trying to help them, those that can be helped that is, to get over their problem does not even cross their mind.

MrP

Evil Phil

Now I could be wrong about this but aren't people allowed to give evidence 'in camera' to avoid them having to do so in front of their abuser. A lot of abusers don't show remorse and can actually use their victims testimony as a chance to abuse them again to a lesser degree. Not all pedophiles show remorse or regret their actions. But I suppose this should be judged on a case by case basis as some abusers plead guilty and spare their victims the pain of having to testify. My point is, or maybe its more of a waffle, its very hard to be formulaic about people who sexually abuse children.

Its an unrelated point but the vast majority of victims do not go on to be abusers.

MrPudding

Evil Phil wrote:

Now I could be wrong about this but aren't people allowed to give evidence 'in camera' to avoid them having to do so in front of their abuser. A lot of abusers don't show remorse and can actually use their victims testimony as a chance to abuse them again to a lesser degree.

I think this is a particualar issue in rape cases. In the UK the accused has, or at least did, have the right to cross examine the (alledged) victim. Not a pleasent experience.

Evil Phil wrote:

Not all pedophiles show remorse or regret their actions.

I the case of a mentally ill person they may not see their action as something they need to feel remorese or regret about.

Evil Phil wrote:

My point is, or maybe its more of a waffle, its very hard to be formulaic about people who sexually abuse children.

This is a major problem with crimes that can have a mental angle. It really is hard to have hard and fast rules. You are right, it really does need to be done on a case by case basis.

Evil Phil wrote:

Its an unrelated point but the vast majority of victims do not go on to be abusers.

True, but it does further reinforce the difficulty of trying to pin labels on people.

MrP

pork99

naughty_girl wrote:

Having read a lot of books on this (and similar matters), I can say with confidence that most child molesters act on a physco-sexual urge. They might not fancy children(undoubtedly some do fancy children), but they get sexual release from the mere act of causing someone else pain.

If we were to investigate a sexual predators(indeed any criminals)background, then we can try and help them.

So it's purely the environment that produces criminals?

Surely for every one case like the one you quoted there are hundreds of thousands of people who have had similarily horrific childhoods and never offend?

What about the increasing evidence that people who can kill, assault, rape without remorse actually have differently structured brains from normal people?

I'm not saying it's that simple but the interactions between nature and nuture are subtle and complex.

( good book on the subject )

pretty-in-pink

pork99 wrote:

I'm not saying it's that simple but the interactions between nature and nuture are subtle and complex.

( good book on the subject )

Not something I'd deny, as there are also some pretty horrific cases where the perp has had a prety good upbringing. So there is a "nature" element. However its probably a mixture of both. If a child is abused or neglected during their formative years, it would affect their cerebral development and their social ability etc.

Not everyone who is abused becomes an abuser/killer- though for those who don't go on to have a criminal career,some of what they have learned growing up will remain with them- they might be very strict, cross parents, or they might be really relaxed about rules etc.

Most people who like to hurt/abuse others have had a traumatic childhood, or a neglectful one*- not all but most.

*by neglectful I mean both the "traditional" sense of the word(left hungry,dirty etc) and also by neglecting to give the child any disipline, so they become spoiled, and expect to get everything they want, and lose their tempers if they don't get it. This can lead to them simply taking whatever they want through whatever means neccessary.

Most *really* dangerous perps have very similar backgrounds and character traits. The combination of nature and nurture would have a major effect- I'm pretty sure it was Jon venables and his friend that were removed from their homes, put into foster care, showed an improvement and got put back into a toxic enviroment. I'll check out who it was and let you know.......

solas

If one group of criminals needs to be electronically tagged it's child molestors. They should get any treatment available but they should also be obliged to wear electronic tags all the time.

havent read the entire thread (will do later) but I would think tagging should be compulsory.
In fact I wonder is it possible to attach electrodes which would supply an electrical current to the relevant part of the brain (or nuts) when stimulated.?

been watching too much brainiac.