More Chinese than Irish!:)

limerick_man

HAHA

To be honest when i heard that more people in Ireland have registered there first language as Cantanese then Irish, I had a great laugh (although i was watching the panel which i always laugh at anyway) !

If you think of it it makes a bit of sence... there's one billion Chinese and four million irish ( of which less then 20% can speak the language), so i guess its about time it takes third place!

I think the governments next step should be to make Cantanese an offical language to replace irish!

Maybe we should cut the funding for the failing 'Gaeltacht' areas and make china towns throughout the country instead!

Esel

limerick_man wrote:

... there's one billion Chinese and four million irish .../QUOTE]

Where? In Ireland?

simu

Yes, "Chinese" has more native speakers than any other language on earth although I'm not sure if all the dialects are mutually understandable. Mandarin and Cantonese are supposed to be very different, anyway.

I definitely think the Gaeltacht borders should be redrawn as they're woefully incorrect at the moment and also, more recognition and support should be given to Irish speakers outside them. Also, people from China who settle here should be encouraged to pass their own language onto their kids as well as having them learn English and Irish and French and whatever else! The more languages people speak the better - it's not a competition and it's not as if Irish speakers are suddenly switching over to Chinese. (I wouldn't mind learning a bit someday, though!).

I don't think people would like to have Irish replaced as an official language. That would just give fuel to hysterics who claim that "foreigners are destroying our culture" but hey, maybe if we end up with permanent communities in other languages here, they could be added to the list! Who knows?

Dizzyblabla

I think Canada are thinking of making Chinese one of their national languages now, so they'll have 3, English, French and Chinese...
I agree with simu, no need to replace Irish, but add the new languages as the demand grows.
My cousin in America speaks English and Chinese fluently (his mom is from Taiwan), and goes to Chinese classes over there, but my uncle is hopeless and hasn't taught him much Irish at all... I don't know if they do many classes over there at all...

Gael

limerick_man wrote:

HAHA

To be honest when i heard that more people in Ireland have registered there first language as Cantanese then Irish, I had a great laugh (although i was watching the panel which i always laugh at anyway) !

If you think of it it makes a bit of sence... there's one billion Chinese and four million irish ( of which less then 20% can speak the language), so i guess its about time it takes third place!

I think the governments next step should be to make Cantanese an offical language to replace irish!

Maybe we should cut the funding for the failing 'Gaeltacht' areas and make china towns throughout the country instead!

I'm an Irish speaker and I wouldn't mind if Chinese is given recognition. Hey I'd say I'm more likely to learn it and speak it than an lazy Anglo-monoglot like yourself, Limerickman.
In fact I think the Chinese community probably have more respct for Irish than alot of Irish people like yourself, Limerickman. Please, don't tell me, let me guess, you hated it in school, it's a waste of time yada, yada, yada.....*SNOOZE*

Ron DMC

Gael wrote:

In fact I think the Chinese community probably have more respct for Irish than alot of Irish people

Yu Ming...

MT

To be consistent and fair if the number of Chinese speakers surpass those that use Irish as a first language then they're mother tongue should be given equal recognition. On this note, I feel that there should be no hierarchy of official languages in Ireland - they should all be on an equal footing. Having said that, as Ireland becomes more and more diverse through immigration would it be feasible to continue adding new languages to the 'official' list. What with all this entails - duplicating signage, legislation etc. in these languages. So maybe in years to come the best and least discrimminatory policy to adopt would be a delisting of all languages. I mean, is there really a need for a list of official languages - the US mangages without any.

Gael

Of course the US has an official language. It's called English!!!!

zod

limerick_man wrote:

To be honest when i heard that more people in Ireland have registered there first language as Cantanese then Irish,

where ? - do you have a link?

aku0000

there are more people in the US that speak spanish than speak english. but still they will not recognise spanish as a national language

MT

Gael wrote:

Of course the US has an official language. It's called English!!!!

The US does not have an official language, that is one declared by law to have a special status as in Ireland. English is only the country's de facto national tongue by virtue of it having the most widespread usage. Its place is not recognised on the statute books.

Interestingly, this means that if hispanic immigration continues apace there may come a day later in this century when legislation, roads signs, etc. will be printed in Spanish instead of English. Unlikely, of course, but there's no law requiring the exclusive use of English at the moment or barring any other language for that matter.

Gael

aku0000 wrote:

there are more people in the US that speak spanish than speak english. but still they will not recognise spanish as a national language

I'm not sure that it's a majority yet, but it's definitely a significant minority.
It's reminds me of the first episode of Nip/Tuck where Seán heard his daughter speaking Spanish to the maid and said "Don't be speaking a foreign language in front of Daddy". And his wife answered "Seán, this is South Florida. English is a foreign language!"
The US has always been a country that pushed cultural uniformity. Don't expect that to change soon. English has always been held up as the unquestionable national language by the federal government.
Interestingly enough though, apparently when the first vote was taken after independence on what the national official language would be, English only beat German by one vote!

Ron DMC

MT wrote:

I mean, is there really a need for a list of official languages - the US mangages without any.

Of course there's a need for official status of a language. Why do you think us Gaeilgeoirí have fought so strongly to get the government to propose the EU language status thing. And the US does not manage without any, look at the mockery of an english language that is spoken over there. They don't even spell things properly.

Gael

MT wrote:

The US does not have an official language, that is one declared by law to have a special status as in Ireland.

You'll excuse me if I read that as meaning "official language".

MT

Gael wrote:

The US has always been a country that pushed cultural uniformity. Don't expect that to change soon.

Not sure that I’d agree with that. As a country it has always celebrated its diversity, hence the recognition of St. Patrick’s day by the White House and the parades in many major cities. They also have a Tartan Week, more Welsh Choirs than any other country, etc. They have strong ethnic American communities cherishing many of the cultural traditions of the countries they or their ancestors left. Why do you think the Mafia managed to remain such a powerful force in Sicilian-American communities for so long? On this note, many of the country’s citizens view themselves as hyphenated Americans, ie. they’re not just Americans but Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, Scottish-Americans, African-Americans and so on. Indeed, I believe it was America that gave the world terms such as the melting pot or the concept of multi-culturalism.

Gael wrote:

Interestingly enough though, apparently when the first vote was taken after independence on what the national official language would be, English only beat German by one vote!

I’m afraid that story, though often told, is entirely apocryphal.

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Of course there's a need for official status of a language.

There may well be. But I’ve yet to hear a good full-proof argument put forward for the need for an official language. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

And the US does not manage without any, look at the mockery of an english language that is spoken over there.

That sounds like linguistic snobbery to me. Surely, the only test for communication in a language is that other users can fully comprehend what you’re conveying. Do good grammar, pronunciation or accent really matter? After all, isn’t language forever changing? Look at how far English has evolved since the writings of Geoffrey Chaucer. Surely the additions to the language’s vocabulary by Americans and others, not to mention new patterns of speech, are just continuing that rich process of change? Isn’t a language’s fluidity and capacity to change its best defence against anachronism? I see nothing wrong with the vibrant contributions to English by countries such as America. What would make the language a mockery is if it usage was prescribed in stone.

Ron DMC

MT wrote:

There may well be. But I’ve yet to hear a good full-proof argument put forward for the need for an official language. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Not quite sure of all that many reasons, but in the case of irish, it's a necessary step towards enforcing a strong language in the years to come. The language is fighting a losing battle against the influence of American television, the internet and the current hatred schoolchildren seem to have toward it. Giving it the recognition it deserves ensures that there will always be jobs and a use for the language, thus encouraging people to continue to learn and appreciate it.

That sounds like linguistic snobbery to me. Surely, the only test for communication in a language is that other users can fully comprehend what you’re conveying. Do good grammar, pronunciation or accent really matter?

Yes, in that a language is richer with them. Sure, we cud all talk like dis but where would our next Shakespeare come from. In my opinion language is what sets us apart from animals and as we all know even they communicate successfully to each other but we just plain do it better. Language is a form of art and to diminish that is to diminish the joy of life itself. Please don't tell me don't appreciate a good piece of literature or poetry.

MT

Gael wrote:

You'll excuse me if I read that as meaning "official language".

Surely, there's actually a considerable difference - both in terms of cause and effect - between an official state language and one that acquires such a de facto status through popular usage. For example, English could easily loose its status in the US through being supplanted popularly by another language such as Spanish. This couldn't happen to Irish here.

I'd say that in granting a language a recognised place on a nation's statute books has more to do with political considerations than anything else. Otherwise, given the widespread popular usage of English in conversation, publishing, Oireachtas debates and so on, the de facto official language of Ireland would also be its first official language.

MT

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Not quite sure of all that many reasons, but in the case of irish, it's a necessary step towards enforcing a strong language in the years to come.

I’m not sure I understand what this means. Do you envisage Irish supplanting English as the most spoken language in Ireland at some point in the future?

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

The language is fighting a losing battle against the influence of American television, the internet and the current hatred schoolchildren seem to have toward it.

Surely, given your previous posts, the language that’s fighting the losing battle against American television is Ireland’s version of English. As for Irish, surely it lost this battle long before the widespread availability of US TV and way before the internet was even created. But what are you proposing here? Do you want restrictions placed on access to American programmes or the internet? (I’d better type this quickly!) How would you get Channel 4 to alter its broadcasting schedule – it even seems to outdo RTE for American imports?

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Giving it the recognition it deserves ensures that there will always be jobs and a use for the language, thus encouraging people to continue to learn and appreciate it.

But that’s like building a factory to give people jobs regardless of whether there’s any demand for the stuff they make. Isn’t the primary reason for the existence of a language its use as a medium of communication: not jobs for linguists or for the delectation of admirers? Latin is an interesting language but one that’s long ceased to have any popular usage. Should a similar approach be adopted towards it?

My view is that languages become alive and vibrant when there is demand for them from the bottom up. The spontaneity in usage you seem to deride in American English is surely a symptom of its popularity amongst the masses. Can or would this evolving, living means of communication ever be allowed to develop in a language imposed from the elite down?

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Yes, in that a language is richer with them. Sure, we cud all talk like dis but where would our next Shakespeare come from.

But surely that’s where Shakespeare did come from? He used the language that was current in his era. Had your approach been taken then Shakespeare’s plays would have read very differently as they’d have been written in the English of Chaucer, or even earlier writers. Indeed, had he been alive, Chaucer might well have viewed Shakespeare’s works as little more than mangled slang or linguistic vandalism. But, in my view, he’d be just as wrongheaded as you are. If the accepted usage of language doesn’t evolve to reflect the popular version spoken on the street then it’ll become stale and die. Where you seem to see the maintenance of a benchmark, I see a ball and chain.

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

In my opinion language is what sets us apart from animals and as we all know even they communicate successfully to each other but we just plain do it better.

And that’s precisely why language should be allowed to change. It’s that very change or evolution we’ve went through to escape from our animal state that has given us communication through speech. The fact that animals never do anything more that grunt the same noises is all the more reason for us to emphasise and continue our development from that primitive existence by allowing for constant change and the exploration of our advanced form of communication.

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Language is a form of art and to diminish that is to diminish the joy of life itself.

Where have I diminished this art form? Surely, your approach to language is more harmful being reminiscent of the great works/men sphere of thinking that so damages the appreciation of many works of art. This idea that a gold standard was established long ago and anything that has deviated from it since is inferior still casts a baleful shadow. I believe that art - including any work of art in language - should be appreciated for what it is and on its merits and not on how it relates to things produced in times long past. In this respect, some of Shakespeare’s plays are of the highest standard: some are rather mediocre. Likewise, some of today’s films are good: some are bad. But each should be valued for what they are and not according to their vintage. The same should go for works in Irish.

limerick_man

Actually i have many Cantanese speaking friends... on the whole most of their mothers have only partiatal or no English (execpt 2 who work in shops/chinese takeout), the dad has got english as well as the kids! Weirdly 3 of my friends have come from england rather than directly to ireland!

I have picked up a bit of cantanese and i like to go into the chinese supermarkets and try read the magazines and smell the spices etc?

True i have never liked it but i've always wanted enough so that when i got famous i could shout something to an adoring crowd .. but that will probably never happen (guess i can stilll shout in english to my fans) lol!

The chinese in ireland seem to be the hardest working ... most friendly people, in my class back a few years ago when i was in primary school .... i remember only two boys did there homework and then everyone else just copied it, the chinese boy and the pakistan boy!

Most irish lads seem to always take any easy way out.. myself included!

Gael

Actually I still haven't seen this report/census result that this was based on. I heard it on the panel too, but they didn't give any background. God forbid that someone was putting some spin on statistics.
I remember Ken Maginnis od the UUP saying something similiar about Irish in the north, but he never backed it up.

newgrange

I thought the recent newspaper reports referred to the Dublin area, not the country as a whole?

Gael

What? More Chinese speakers in Dublin than Irish speakers! Hardly a revelation is it? And how many of them are students?
When I heard it reported it said more Chinese speakers than Irish speakers, full stop. A slight difference don't you think.