Changing gear without clutch?

fjon

I recently had a problem with my gears - it was very "notchy" when moving into certain gears.
After googling and looking at a few forums, I came across an interesting solution. If I drove for a week or two without using the clutch when changing gear it should remove a bit of the notchiness. So I did this whenever I had the chance - usually on empty roads as it is a bit tricky to get the hang of at first.
Sure enough, my clutch is now a lot smoother, and I have become an expert at changing gears without clutch (am now ready for left-foot braking )
Just wondering what your comments are on this? From the people I have asked this isn't all that unusual, and also does not cause any major damage to the car.

dub_dan

how do you change gears without clutching?!

fjon

The way I was told is this:
When driving with your clutch, take notice of what RPM you usually change gears at. Mine was usually between 15-20 I think. Then try to change gears when you reach that rev without using the clutch. It should go into gear, but not quite as smoothly.Gets much easier after a little while.
Note you cannot shift down though!

aodh_rua

That sounds like something that would mash the gearbox.

LegacyUser

So bad for the car...jesus.

declanoneill

fjon wrote:

The way I was told is this:
When driving with your clutch, take notice of what RPM you usually change gears at. Mine was usually between 15-20 I think. Then try to change gears when you reach that rev without using the clutch. It should go into gear, but not quite as smoothly.Gets much easier after a little while.
Note you cannot shift down though!

Just to clarify, do you take it out of gear with the clutch when changing, i.e. use clutch to take it out of first, release clutch, then put it into second, or do the whole thing sans clutch. Also I imagine this *has* to do something bad to your car

De Hipster

The very idea makes me whince! Couldn't be right...surely?!

Zaph0d

this only works on rental cars

De Hipster

Zaph0d wrote:

this only works on rental cars

...in Tunisia

fjon

Interesting reponses
The only time I would use the clutch would be when whifting down, and when stopped. But after a short google I have found it is possible to shift down without clutch also:

All you have to do is have it in the correct rpm range. First figgure out what it is by shifting normal and look where your rpm's are when you start to shift and where they go into when you shift into the next gear. Then when you try this, get the rpms there again, pull it into nutral and when the rpms get to where they were when you shifted before it should slip right in. Be careful though, it can slip if youu do it wrong. Shifting down is harder but same idea. You just have to rev your engine to the correct rpms to get it to slip in. There, how is that for an explanation?

aodh_rua

fjon wrote:

Interesting reponses
The only time I would use the clutch would be when whifting down, and when stopped. But after a short google I have found it is possible to shift down without clutch also:

Well if it's on the internet.....

Seriously though - there is a good reason for using the clutch when changing - it allows the gears to be changed while not being driven. Without it, I can't see how bad things won't happen. I wouldn't do it to my car, and I can't even think why I'd try.

fjon

Ok, some more info - read the last few paragaphs:

http://www.se-r.net/transaxle_clutch/clutch_not_to.html

I actually first found out it was possible to do this when the gears on my last car went kaput, and the AA guy drove the thing half a mile to the garage without a clutch. Starting a car in 1st is quite scary! He assured me it wouldn't damage it.

fletch

My Dad showed me how to do this. He got quite handy at it a few years ago when the clutch cable in the car we used to have would constantly slip. You can even pull off without a clutch(not smoothly though), you have to have the car turned off, select first gear, have your foot pressed on the accelerator & then start the car....Obviously the car launches forward & it does not do the gearbox any favours but I regularly do the 2nd to 3rd shift and 3rd to 4th shift without using the clutch & in most cases, the change is seemless.
When downshifting, a small blip of the throttle smoothens out the change.

De Hipster

I can't see how it wouldn't grind hell out of it & have the gearbox explode out the casing!

aodh_rua

Right - just been asking around. Apparently you can get away with it as long as you have a synchromesh gearbox and can change at the right time. Still think I'll stick with the clutch!

fjon

De Hipster wrote:

I can't see how it wouldn't grind hell out of it & have the gearbox explode out the casing!

Like Fletch said, it becomes very easy with practice. The transition is very smooth after a few tries.
I am not doing it any more - I am using my clutch like a normal person. I simply had a problem with my clutch/ gears, and found I was able to resolve it this way. I'm obviously not encouraging anyone to do this, unless they want to!

Dades

I've heard you can stop without using the brake pedal.
You just need to be able to open your door and also to have a good pair of shoes.

Ratchet

just show us picture of your car, so we know which one to avoid

alias no.9

If you match the engine speed and road speed correctly, this will not cause any additional wear on your gearbox. The trick is never to force it, it's all about smooth motion when engaging or disengaging the gears. I have no idea why fjon is doing this or what he's trying to achieve, but I have done it in the past when my clutch release bearing was on the way out and I had to wait a few days to get it changed. To disengage the gear, starting from a steady speed, lift off the accellerator very slightly and gently push the gearstick to neutral. To engage a higher gear, again, you push the gear lever gently into gear, the revs will be falling after you've lifted off the accelerator and as the revs fall to a point where the they match the road speed for that gear, it will just slot into gear. To engage a lower gear, once you're in neutral, give the accelerator a sharp blast and again allow the revs to fall while gently pushing the gear lever towards the desired gear. Once more, as the revs fall past the point where the they match the road speed for that gear, it will just slot into gear. If you're changing up, and you've missed the point at which the gear should have engaged, you can just use the changing up method. Very smooth gear changes can be made this way. It is however cumbersome and really only of use in an emergency where you have clutch problems.

kenmc

whenever i have a rental i practice doing it, so as whenever i may need to do it in my own car then i'll be able to. it's actually not that difficult - just have to get the revs right.
Remember - rental cars are the fastest cars in the world

Ratchet

alias no.9 wrote:

If you match the engine speed and road speed correctly, this will not cause any additional wear on your gearbox. The trick is never to force it, it's all about smooth motion when engaging or disengaging the gears. I have no idea why fjon is doing this or what he's trying to achieve, but I have done it in the past when my clutch release bearing was on the way out and I had to wait a few days to get it changed. To disengage the gear, starting from a steady speed, lift off the accellerator very slightly and gently push the gearstick to neutral. To engage a higher gear, again, you push the gear lever gently into gear, the revs will be falling after you've lifted off the accelerator and as the revs fall to a point where the they match the road speed for that gear, it will just slot into gear. To engage a lower gear, once you're in neutral, give the accelerator a sharp blast and again allow the revs to fall while gently pushing the gear lever towards the desired gear. Once more, as the revs fall past the point where the they match the road speed for that gear, it will just slot into gear. If you're changing up, and you've missed the point at which the gear should have engaged, you can just use the changing up method. Very smooth gear changes can be made this way. It is however cumbersome and really only of use in an emergency where you have clutch problems.

agree there,

additionally you have better chance to cause extensive

synchroniser wear.

fletch

The Atheist wrote:

I've heard you can stop without using the brake pedal.
You just need to be able to open your door and also to have a good pair of shoes.

lol lol

Kersh

Us race car driver types change up without clutch, but on a down change it is usual to blip the throttle with your right heel as your right foot is on the brake at the same time - when you blip the throttle you can change down (it matches up engine /box speeds). Takes practice, and its crucial in the rain to stop the back wheels locking . Heel and toe is what its called. That said I broke the gearbox in 2 ford focus one night changing gear without the clutch, so if you have a focus, 2nd gear will last about half an hour - oh the joys of car hire...

ds20prefecture

I don't have a clutch pedal in my 4 speed manual, my clutch is activated by magic.

peasant

Sounds as if it was the same principal as the "double de-clutch" you had to do with unsynchronised gearboxes. Can just see that one work with a bit of practice, no idea what it would do to all the syncro rings on prolonged use though, hence I shan't try it

Imposter

Ratchet wrote:

just show us picture of your car, so we know which one to avoid

You don't need a picture, he'll be the one doing Kangaroo style hops down the road

AMurphy

Sure you can do it, tractors with non-synchro straight cut gears are better for the job though.The synchros will suffer eventually. Free revving engines tend to make it difficult as it is hard to match the speeds. and it is not something that makes for lightning fast changes.

In a pinch, no problems, but long term, it may be best to stick with using the clutch, unless it has a tractor box in it.

RicardoSmith

Done properly it shouldn't do any damage to the gears or cause excessive wear. Your more likely to cause damage and wear by changing gears badly USING the clutch. The sync and the clutch are there so you don't have to match the speeds before making the change, and that clumsy oafs can drive a car. Syncho Mesh gears are less efficent at transferring power than square cut gears. Which is why racing cars used to use them. Dunno if that still applies these days.

KTRIC

Let me guess, you read this on an American website , right ??

Kersh

Most race cars use the hewland box, with straight cut gears, hence you can change without the clutch, the class I race has synchros, but still upshift without clutch, I will be fitting a 'flat shift' to my car this year, so I can make full throttle gear shifts. In a road car it depends how talented you are, and how deep your pocket is, if you happen to run out of talent.

RicardoSmith

Banta Fodder wrote:

Let me guess, you read this on an American website , right ??

If you are referring to me. No. Heard it from people I know who remember when there wasn't such a thing as sychromesh gearboxs. Nothing special about not using the clutch. Double declutching, dogleg gear boxes, Straight cut gears were all boringly normal.

Done it myself in cars, vans and trucks when the clutch cables gone, or the clutch lining is worn out. Hill starts are a bugger. Remember having to do it going up ChristChurch Hill. (used to be the other direction with lights at the top) Stillorgan car park is also no fun without a clutch. Even no handbrake is tricky on a hill. No handbrake and no clutch, that would be tough.

KTRIC

RicardoSmith wrote:

If you are referring to me. No. Heard it from people I know who remember when there wasn't such a thing as sychromesh gearboxs. Nothing special about not using the clutch. Double declutching, dogleg gear boxes, Straight cut gears were all boringly normal.

Done it myself in cars, vans and trucks when the clutch cables gone, or the clutch lining is worn out. Hill starts are a bugger. Remember having to do it going up ChristChurch Hill. (used to be the other direction with lights at the top) Stillorgan car park is also no fun without a clutch. Even no handbrake is tricky on a hill. No handbrake and no clutch, that would be tough.

No , i was refering to fjon and the website he /she read this crap on. I used to work for Hertz and I heard all the stories about cars coming back with the clutches burnt out after 5 days rental because some American can't use a "stick shift".

RicardoSmith

Banta Fodder wrote:

No , i was refering to fjon and the website he /she read this crap on. I used to work for Hertz and I heard all the stories about cars coming back with the clutches burnt out after 5 days rental because some American can't use a "stick shift".

ah..my bad.

I can only imagine. I remember trying to hire a manual in the States they didn't have any. had to get the guy show me how to use an automatic. He thought I was taking the p.

Capt'n Midnight

Citroen's logo is based on synchromesh gears, that's how proud they were about them. Or in other words they've been around a long time and as others have posted synchromesh are much easier to use with a clutch than the straight cut one, and much harder to use without a clutch.

Yeah my car that could change up without using the clutch, but I since had the gearbox changed.

ds20prefecture

All a clutch does is match the speed of the flywheel to the particular gear selected. If the revs are right on the flywheel, there is no problem meshing the gear without using the clutch.

Obviously there is some skill to matching the speed of the engine to the appropriate gear being selected. Changing up is easier as the engine revs are slowing to match the rotation of the higher gear. If downshifting, you need to blip the throttle to match the engine speed to the higher rotation speed of the lower gear.

AMurphy

RicardoSmith wrote:

Done properly ... The sync and the clutch are there so you don't have to match the speeds before making the change, and that clumsy oafs can drive a car. Syncho Mesh gears are less efficent at transferring power than square cut gears. Which is why racing cars used to use them. Dunno if that still applies these days.

"Done properly", there is the problem, 99% of the driving public couldn't. And just lile PS, soft clutches, Power windows, ABS, etc it makes the task easier and more comfortable, hence get more (sub standard) drivers behind the wheel.

Straight cut gears are stronger I believe and have non of the sidethrust problems associated with Helical cut gears and may be slightly more efficient.
However, Heli cut gears make less noise, are smoother, etc. Can you imagine is all your forward gears engaged and sounded like reverse?.
Synchro does not add or subtrace to the efficiency, the only time they are active/used is when changing gears, then it becomes part of the rotating mass, that all. They may add length and weight to the overall construction, which has some associated efficiency penalty, as would the constant meshing.

Lord Nikon

Clutch is your friend.

Scruff

The Atheist wrote:

I've heard you can stop without using the brake pedal.
You just need to be able to open your door and also to have a good pair of shoes.

no no no. the way to do it is drop 2 gears like from 4th direct to 2nd. slows the car fantastically without loosing revs and inducing a kind of handbrake turn. excellent for slingshotting around a tight corner.

fjon

My my, what a controversial subject. As mentioned before, I *do not* drive without the clutch. I did do it for a while as a DIY remedy for a problem I was having. Problem was solved; I started using the clutch again like a normal person.
For the record, it was a UK site, and not American.

Hotblack Desiato

AMurphy wrote:

Sure you can do it, tractors with non-synchro straight cut gears are better for the job though.

A motorcycle has the same sort of gearbox

If you're using a good bit of throttle on a bike you can change up very very smoothly by pushing the gear lever and partially closing then re-opening the throttle very quickly.

Drag racing motorcycles usually have a "quick shifter" - a pushbutton to cut the ignition - so they keep the throttle fully wound on and just quickly press the button to shift up - takes a fraction of a second.

xtrac

ds20prefecture wrote:

All a clutch does is match the speed of the flywheel to the particular gear selected. If the revs are right on the flywheel, there is no problem meshing the gear without using the clutch.

Ah, no :-). The clutch dis-engages the gearbox from the engine, in doing so takes the pressure off the gears to make changing easier(possible?)

There are specific gearbox types that allow clutchless gear changes, these are called dog boxes. Kersh was correct in saying Hewland make them, so do Quaife, Xtrac and numerous others. These mostly have straight-cut gears (for less powerloss, as mentioned by another poster) and have dog-rings. These are similar, (but different :-)) to synchromesh rings. A synchro ring has teeth on it like triangles, and these (on both gears) "mesh" with each other to make the gears rotate at the same speed and enable a smooth change. The dog rings on the other hand, have teeth (4,6 or 8 usually) like you would see on the tops of castles (not sure what these are called, look abit like lego bricks), you need to lift from throttle and then with speed and power ram it into the desired gear. Given that these mesh realy quick with each other, very fast gear changes are possible, if you try to change a synchro box this quick, you will either beat the synchros and damage them, or the box just wont change until it has corrected it speed enough, some toyota boxes are like this, and some subarus are like the former, hence the necessity to examine 2,3,4 and 5th gear in scoobys for notchy changes. I've used dogboxes for about 6 years now, and love them :-)

You can also get sequential, full throttle dog-boxes, but these mostly have electronics to cut power to engine when it senses a change coming and then the box acts like a standard dogbox.

A point of note is that dogboxes are by design, destined to wear out, hence you dont see them on road cars, and by wear out, I mean the dog teeth themselves wear and refuse to hold the car in gear, i.e. it just keeps popping out.

For me, the main benefit of a dogbox is that it allows me to left foot brake and change gear at the same time, hence my right foot never leaves the throttle position, allowing me superior reaction times than if I kept having to move my right foot from brake to throttle position all the time. (plus its faster imho :-))

Regards

-Roy

Chalk

ninja900 wrote:

A motorcycle has the same sort of gearbox

If you're using a good bit of throttle on a bike you can change up very very smoothly by pushing the gear lever and partially closing then re-opening the throttle very quickly.

Drag racing motorcycles usually have a "quick shifter" - a pushbutton to cut the ignition - so they keep the throttle fully wound on and just quickly press the button to shift up - takes a fraction of a second.

was just gonna say something like that,

i upshiift without the clutch regularly,
so much handier.
usually on motorways as the constant accelaration is more suitable