Here we go again with the NRPAI...

Sparks

Okay, so you guys probably remember me getting rather annoyed with the way the NRPAI organised the Tirol Open team. And today I just came across this (names removed):

From: SSAI PRO
To: SSAI
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 4:59 PM
Subject: Phoenix Shoot May Fri - Mon, 27th, 28th, 29th & 30th
Dear All

The interest in Gallery Rifle has certainly taken off:

There is a team being put together to visit Bisley during the last weekend
in May, which is the UK May bank holiday.

The event is the Inaugural International Gallery Rifle (Centre Fire)
event. The firearm to be used is the lever action .38/.45 cal rifle.

We are looking to put a team of 8 together to compete in the above event,
if you have an interest in being part of the squad please contact me as
soon as possible.

<The secretary of the SSAI> will be organising the team participation and I will be
passing names on to him.

This promises to be an excellent week-end and we are always treated
royally when we visit Bisley.

Kind Regards
PRO SSAI

Now I don't mind the idea of an Irish Gallery Rifle team. At all. I rather support the idea in fact. It's a good idea to have a National Team so that those who have an interest in competing have something to use as a goal.

But it should be the NASRC who run it, and not the NRPAI.

Seriously, what's the big idea here? Does the NRPAI want to stop being the federation of National Governing Bodies it was set up to be, and claim to be a National Governing Body itself, despite the fact that its own rules preclude the idea of any individual person having a vote at the AGM when those who sit on its committee are elected, and despite the fact that it doesn't qualify as an NGB in it's current form according to the guidelines for funding set down by the Irish Sports Council? (The only reason it gets funding given its current structure is because it's an umbrella body and they get more leeway than individual NGBs).

And leaving the internal politics of it aside, directly relevant to the actual shooting part of all this are the following questions:

1. What are the selection criteria for the team? Is it "Who're the best pals of the 'powers that be'"? Or will there be an actual selection process this time? Because if it's just a few lads going over to take part on their own behalf, that's grand and not a worry and indeed something to be happy about and encourage; but if you're sending an Irish Team, that's a whole other ball game. Send an Irish Team and there's an requirement to send the best we have; and that best have to be determined in open, fair competition. And that means having clear selection criteria, announced in advance. Not some ad hoc "erra, he'll do, he's grand" kludge of a thing.
2. Is the NRPAI going to fund the team? In which case, question 1 becomes even more serious.
3. Did the NASRC agree to the NRPAI running this team even though the NASRC is the National Governing Body for Gallery Rifle?
4. Were the concerns and formal complaints regarding the Tirol Open just filed in the bin, with no lessons learnt or notes taken? Because if so, what's the point of having the NRPAI at all, if it'll just do whatever the hell it wants, regardless of the opinions of its members?
5. Why wasn't this announced publicly, but through an email sent to a select list of the chosen few?

Gah! Where'd I put my heartburn medication? :mad:

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Okay, so you guys probably remember me getting rather annoyed with the way the NRPAI organised the Tirol Open team. And today I just came across this (names removed):
Now I don't mind the idea of an Irish Gallery Rifle team. At all. I rather support the idea in fact. It's a good idea to have a National Team so that those who have an interest in competing have something to use as a goal.

But it should be the NASRC who run it, and not the NRPAI.

Seriously, what's the big idea here? Does the NRPAI want to stop being the federation of National Governing Bodies it was set up to be, and claim to be a National Governing Body itself, despite the fact that its own rules preclude the idea of any individual person having a vote at the AGM when those who sit on its committee are elected, and despite the fact that it doesn't qualify as an NGB in it's current form according to the guidelines for funding set down by the Irish Sports Council? (The only reason it gets funding given its current structure is because it's an umbrella body and they get more leeway than individual NGBs).

And leaving the internal politics of it aside, directly relevant to the actual shooting part of all this are the following questions:

1. What are the selection criteria for the team? Is it "Who're the best pals of the 'powers that be'"? Or will there be an actual selection process this time? Because if it's just a few lads going over to take part on their own behalf, that's grand and not a worry and indeed something to be happy about and encourage; but if you're sending an Irish Team, that's a whole other ball game. Send an Irish Team and there's an requirement to send the best we have; and that best have to be determined in open, fair competition. And that means having clear selection criteria, announced in advance. Not some ad hoc "erra, he'll do, he's grand" kludge of a thing.
2. Is the NRPAI going to fund the team? In which case, question 1 becomes even more serious.
3. Did the NASRC agree to the NRPAI running this team even though the NASRC is the National Governing Body for Gallery Rifle?
4. Were the concerns and formal complaints regarding the Tirol Open just filed in the bin, with no lessons learnt or notes taken? Because if so, what's the point of having the NRPAI at all, if it'll just do whatever the hell it wants, regardless of the opinions of its members?
5. Why wasn't this announced publicly, but through an email sent to a select list of the chosen few?

Gah! Where'd I put my heartburn medication? :mad:

I suspect that the criteria for National team selection and qualification is very similar to the NTSA style. That is, only advertise among current shooters,fail to promote the sport on a National basis, keep as much of the competition as possible in Dublin and also keep it as much as possible within the colleges. Only publish results of the competitions but do not widely advertise dates for qualification competitions. Place huge emphasis on the failure of other shooting bodies do deflect attention from shortcomings within the NTSA. Example, I seem to recall the NTSA being made responsible for encouraging and promoting shooting among the disabled. This they have failed to do this and have not explained why they have failed despite insisting that they should be the responsible body and taking on the challenge. Why have they failed to keep their promise to further target shooting among the disabled? Why have they failed to offer any explanation? Why are they not actively encouraging the sport of target shooting for disabled people despite positive feedback from staff involved in dealing with patients with disabilities? At the NRPAi (SSAI) AGM the NTSA delegate comprehensively failed to explain why they had not achieved any progress on this issue. Of course, it seems that the NTSA are very good at seeing the failure of responsibilities of other organisations but are perhaps a little blinkered when it is closer to home. I look forward to reading the explanations offered for the failure to improve the situation of target shooting within the ranks of the disabled, particulary as we usually do very well in the Special Olympics and also the Paralympics. Surely as "Olympic Sports" Target Air Rifle and Pistol and also .22 rimfire should be heavily promoted and supported in all categories of competitior and not just among the able bodied. By the way, I understand that funding is available to promote sport for the disabled so the old chestnut of not having the funds to do it is not an issue.

Sparks

gouda wrote:

I suspect that the criteria for National team selection and qualification is very similar to the NTSA style.

At the moment I'd be half-inclined to agree with you, but then I've been bitching at them too, so it's not like I'm being one-sided in my criticism here!

That is, only advertise among current shooters

Yup, hence the new website (which I did as part of the NTSA) and my sticking competition notices in here as well (which I do off my own back when the NTSA got annoyed that lots of stuff was showing up in here that they didn't want showing up in here and I thought ought to be out in the open), and the newsletter, which I paid for out of my own pocket and sent to everyone I had an address for, including non-NTSA clubs and people. I don't like tooting my own horn here gouda, but dammit, if I'm going to be put through the wringer for being too open, I don't want to be accused of not being open enough later on!

fail to promote the sport on a National basis

Yup. Mind you, I'm not sure how this is worse than the NRPAI which managed to go for what, two years without even a single meeting recently? And what does the NRPAI itself do to promote the sport? I've not yet seen anything that the NRPAI does off it's own back other than meet with the government without telling anyone or sticking to a pre-agreed list of requirements, or going off and deliberately sabotaging attempts to get a fairer carding grant scheme like was done this year, or going off and signing themselves up to international governing bodies that they have no business being signed up to - and all those decisions are taken by one or two people without a full committee meeting to discuss whether or not they may have a negative impact on other groups within the NRPAI. That's not promoting the sport, that's pissing people off and risking their sport for no good reason!

keep as much of the competition as possible in Dublin

...which is where the only ISSF shooters happened to be for ages...

and also keep it as much as possible within the colleges.

*snort*
One of the biggest fights that I kept picking on while in the NTSA was that the college clubs didn't get enough done for them - DURC and UCDRC were turning out over a hundred qualified shooters every year on graduation who were simply ignored instead of being snatched up by other clubs and kept track of for that purpose by the NTSA. And what was being done for them by the NTSA? Nothing. Not a single Range Officer course, no Coaches courses, lots of "bloody student" jokes and the usual range of begrudgery you wouldn't expect to see from a group that's actively breaking their backs pushing the sport.

There has a motion been submitted to the NTSA to appoint a collegiate officer at the next AGM (amongst others; if you want to see them, just say so, there's nothing to hide here). The idea that the colleges got too much attention is just daft; the idea that they don't deserve more is just wrong and bad for the sport in general. The collegiate shooters are the main source of new shooters for the sport at present, it's that simple. There have been efforts to get new shooters in before college level, but so far they haven't produced the raw numbers that college clubs produce (though they have produced excellent quality shooters).

Only publish results of the competitions but do not widely advertise dates for qualification competitions.

All the registered competitions are qualification competitions. They're marked with a capital "R" in the calendar. And the dates are up on the website. Even if there was a fight over this year's calendar because not everyone agreed with the idea of hosting all the national championships at once, you at least can't say it's not publicly available. And while they still had a PRO, the website carried advance notice of competitions in the main news area as well as on the calendar. Which is a damn sight more than the NRPAI ever did - in fact I was told personally by the NRPAI's PRO that he never intended to have a website because he didn't think it was a good idea.

Place huge emphasis on the failure of other shooting bodies do deflect attention from shortcomings within the NTSA.

Nope, I'm just slating crap where I see it, both in and outside the NTSA. And in fact, I've been told off for doing so, mainly because the PRO of the NRPAI threatened the NRPAI with legal action if I wasn't stopped. I'd love to know, by the way, how pointing out that the emperor is looking a bit chilly warrants the threat of legal action by the NRPAI against a national governing body. I'd also love to know how not addressing obvious problems helps the sport.

Example, I seem to recall the NTSA being made responsible for encouraging and promoting shooting among the disabled. This they have failed to do this and have not explained why they have failed despite insisting that they should be the responsible body and taking on the challenge.

Okay, that is simply crap. First off, the NTSA was not made responsible for paralympic shooting - the NRPAI went off and claimed that one for itself off the back of NTSA work. The NTSA itself hasn't gone out and done the work on the ground for disabled shooters; but NTSA clubs have - and saying that the NTSA should be doing it itself is like saying that the NARGC doesn't do any conservation because it's all done by NARGC clubs instead of by Des Crofton on his own. Wilkinstown, for example, has invested thousands of euro in buying paralympic shooting gear, they've organised shooting days for the local paralymic group; and all we've seen out of the NRPAI on this is the NRPAI claiming to be ISSF-recognised (they're not) and confusing the issue at the PCI level; and also having the NRPAI call in to the air rifle nationals without any warning to drop in a group of paralympic shooters without any time for wilkinstown to find range assistants for them. That's not promoting shooting among the disabled, that's using them as a political football to get funding. Which is the lowest, most underhanded thing I've ever personally seen the NRPAI do. Definitely zero points for them on that one.

At the NRPAi (SSAI) AGM the NTSA delegate comprehensively failed to explain why they had not achieved any progress on this issue.

I'm not surprised - I know the NTSA delegate you're talking about and I've got pretty serious problems with him (and I've not kept them to myself - there down in the NTSA's minutes) as well as with the NRPAI! Mind you, bringing up the NRPAI AGM just shows that even the NTSA's problems are minor compared to the NRPAI's - the whole thing of letting the floor vote was bad enough, but no-one saw the motions voted on at the AGM prior to the AGM. And the last time someone tried to bring a motion to the NRPAI AGM without submitting it ahead of time, it was roundly slapped down by the NRPAI's PRO because (and I'm quoting from the minutes of that AGM here) "hasty proposals were a bad idea, and under the Associations constitution,
proposals must be sent in in advance of the AGM, and circulated. If this was not done, proposals cannot be considered." And yet, this year, it's the very same guy who's actually bringing up motions noone's heard of before the AGM despite the agenda being well-circulated (none of the motions made it onto the Agenda), and getting people who had no voting rights to vote on passing the motions, completely changing the name and structure of the NRPAI in the process.

Of course, it seems that the NTSA are very good at seeing the failure of responsibilities of other organisations

Hello? I'm NOT the NTSA...

but are perhaps a little blinkered when it is closer to home.

I'd agree with that completely. I'm not saying there aren't serious problems that need solving with the NTSA - but at least the NTSA isn't going about claiming to be something it isn't!

I look forward to reading the explanations offered for the failure to improve the situation of target shooting within the ranks of the disabled, particulary as we usually do very well in the Special Olympics and also the Paralympics. Surely as "Olympic Sports" Target Air Rifle and Pistol and also .22 rimfire should be heavily promoted and supported in all categories of competitior and not just among the able bodied. By the way, I understand that funding is available to promote sport for the disabled so the old chestnut of not having the funds to do it is not an issue.

Oh the funding is certainly available - to the NRPAI because they are the ones listed as the NGB for paralympic shooting. Which is a neat achievement for a body that itself doesn't claim to be an NGB on its own website, but "a federation of shooting organisations, each controlling and organising their own particular disciplines."

Gouda, I'm more than happy to take the NTSA to task, and I've done so in the past officially instead of semi-anonymously on the internet and been through the wringer for doing so, so please don't make out like I'm trying to say that the NTSA is all sweetness and light and the rest stink - but it was the NRPAI who went off and wrote the email that prompted this thread, not the NTSA!

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

But it should be the NASRC who run it, and not the NRPAI.

Can I just point out at this juncture that the NASRC have taken on gallery shooting and held their first competition on 13th March this year. A number of clubs, Rathdrum being one of them donated €250 each to send a group to Bisley in February to learn all about the discipline with a view to setting up a section of the organisation to run competitions on behalf of the NASRC.

Now I am mightily confused as to how the NRPAI has got involved in sending people to Bisley for a competition, as it raises the issue of exclusion of NASRC members who are not members* of the NRPAI.

*definition

Members of the NRPAI are members of affiliated bodies of the NRPAI or
Members of the NRPAI are people who have paid a sub to the NRPAI or
Members of the NRPAI are people who turned up at the AGM of the NRPAI and are now members of the SSAI or
Members of the NRPAI are anybody who shoots and is not Sparks

rrpc

gouda wrote:

At the NRPAi (SSAI) AGM the NTSA delegate comprehensively failed to explain why they had not achieved any progress on this issue.

Well I imagine that that's a bit like George Bush asking Saddam Hussein why he hasn't done anything about the mess in Iraq

Clash

rrpc wrote:

Well I imagine that that's a bit like George Bush asking Saddam Hussein why he hasn't done anything about the mess in Iraq

Didn't the NRPAI/SSAI take on NGB status for paralympic shooting last year?, so perhaps the question at the AGM should have been better directed to the NRPAI/SSAI, or was the NTSA delegate asked about this with his NRPAI hat on?

It gets so confusing

Dvs

Hello All,
while I myself have no interest in gallery rifle,
would it not make more sense if anyone who is a member of the SSAI either direct or indirect through there shooting organization, that has a wish to go on this trip to send an e-mail to the SSAI Pro stating that fact and see what response they get and what the trip entails.

And if the NASRC or any other group is sending a team to Bisley contact them also ( do the NASRC have anyone shooting pistol calibre .38/.45 lever action rifle?).

The main problem with people bitching about others going to represent Ireland in any sport and the cronisim that is perceived to be rife in the selection of these teams,groups or whatever you want to call them is, nine times out of ten, the people complaining would not go, even if they could!

But don't let that stop anyone :rolleyes:

Regards,
Dvs.

Clash

Dvs wrote:

Hello All,
while I myself have no interest in gallery rifle,
would it not make more sense if anyone who is a member of the SSAI either direct or indirect through there shooting organization, that has a wish to go on this trip to send an e-mail to the SSAI Pro stating that fact and see what response they get and what the trip entails.

Of course they can do that now. But only because the email was published at the beginning of this thread. I think Sparks' point was that the email was sent to a small group and appeared not to be open to anyone outside those emailed.

And if the NASRC or any other group is sending a team to Bisley contact them also ( do the NASRC have anyone shooting pistol calibre .38/.45 lever action rifle?).

The NASRC are not organising this event, even though they are the body responsible for gallery shooting in Ireland. And nobody in this country AFAIK has such a firearm, and I'm not sure any range here outside Midlands could cater for them.

The main problem with people bitching about others going to represent Ireland in any sport and the cronisim that is perceived to be rife in the selection of these teams,groups or whatever you want to call them is, nine times out of ten, the people complaining would not go, even if they could!

Sparks wrote:

What are the selection criteria for the team? Is it "Who're the best pals of the 'powers that be'"? Or will there be an actual selection process this time? Because if it's just a few lads going over to take part on their own behalf, that's grand and not a worry and indeed something to be happy about and encourage; but if you're sending an Irish Team, that's a whole other ball game. Send an Irish Team and there's a requirement to send the best we have; and that best have to be determined in open, fair competition. And that means having clear selection criteria, announced in advance. Not some ad hoc "erra, he'll do, he's grand" kludge of a thing.

I just requoted Sparks there, as the point he makes answers your question fairly well. I for one have no interest in going to the above event, but I reserve the right to fight to my last keypress for the best possible Irish team to go on the basis of: 1. ability, 2. desire and 3. proper transparent selection.

A lot of these selections are throwbacks to the old days of "Anybody interested in going to Bisley?" turning up, and getting the T-Shirts printed with 'Irish Team' on them because it seemed like a good idea at the time, and it was relatively harmless fun. These days with a more professional approach required from sports bodies, some of those who hark back to those halcyon days, think that it's still OK to carry on like that, and f*#k the begrudgers..

But don't let that stop anyone :rolleyes:

Didn't stop me

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

would it not make more sense if anyone who is a member of the SSAI either direct or indirect through there shooting organization, that has a wish to go on this trip to send an e-mail to the SSAI Pro stating that fact and see what response they get and what the trip entails.

The main problem with people bitching about others going to represent Ireland in any sport and the cronisim that is perceived to be rife in the selection of these teams,groups or whatever you want to call them is, nine times out of ten, the people complaining would not go, even if they could!

In this case that's not the situation Dvs. Thing is, the NRPAI is not a national governing body. It was never meant to be open for individual membership, or even to be open to clubs to be members. The whole idea behind it was that the Department of Sport (and later the Irish Sports Council) wanted to talk to just one body for target shooting, as they did with all sports. So umbrella bodies were founded like Equestrian Ireland, the Martial Arts Federation, and our NRPAI. The NRPAI is meant to be an administrative contact point, nothing more. Its constitution specifically prohibits it from interfering with the running of disciplines by the four member bodies that were a part of it at its foundation - the NTSA, the NASRC, the NSA and the Pony Club tetrathlon group. But people have been ignoring rules and playing fast and loose with it over time and now it's been accredited by people it should never have been talking to, it has refused to recognise groups that wanted to establish themselves as NGBs for new disciplines (which is what happened to the lads trying to organise fullbore shooting like Class F out of the Midlands), it's sending teams abroad claiming to be the national team without any of the appropriate procedures being in place, and lots of stuff that carries risk for member bodies is being done in their name without authorisation or even discussion with those member bodies or even the members of its own committee - the Tyrol Open event, for example, was organised and committed to and carried out without a single meeting of the committee, and the Chairman of the NRPAI wasn't even notified of it going ahead by his committee members until a few hours before the team flew out!

And then you turn around and see how the AGM was run this year, and it just becomes blindingly obvious that the whole thing is a large mess, with no rules, no accountability, no transparancy whatsoever, but going about making statements in everyone's name - even if those statements are nowhere near what most of its member bodies (or their members for that matter) would agree with!

And say anything about this and at best, your card is marked. Say something more publicly, and you get legal threats made against you in the NRPAI's name. I've had that happen to me twice so far in the last year alone, so you'll forgive me for being somewhat uncharitable to the people involved.

Look, if you want one single NGB, that's one thing. I personally don't think it'd work for various reasons (for example, not all the international governing bodies get on with one another, so you couldn't have the ISSF and IPSC national governing bodies being the same group). But if you're going to do it, you don't do it with a group like the NRPAI, where an individual shooter is prohibited from joining by the constitution of the NRPAI (yes, I know, there are individual members. I've never heard a satisfactory explaination of how that was allowed, since the constitution wasn't altered - money was simply taken and people told they were members); where individual shooters have no voting rights at the AGM (again, showing how this year's AGM was so wholly invalid); where individual shooters do not have a vote on who represents them in the committee; where individual shooters have no right to see what the committee does...

The list goes on. I could (and have, officially) written a lot more about it. Suffice to say, the NRPAI is broken, badly. It might be fixable; but given its history, the animosity it's generated amongst several of the clubs in the country, and given this latest example of how valid and formal complaints are just ignored at will, well, I don't think it's going to be fixed anytime this decade.

Sparks

Clash wrote:

A lot of these selections are throwbacks to the old days of "Anybody interested in going to Bisley?" turning up, and getting the T-Shirts printed with 'Irish Team' on them because it seemed like a good idea at the time, and it was relatively harmless fun. These days with a more professional approach required from sports bodies, some of those who hark back to those halcyon days, think that it's still OK to carry on like that, and f*#k the begrudgers..

But the old halcyon days' traditions don't have to be abandoned. The Wilkinstown Target Shooting Club just sent nineteen people over to Bisley last month, every last man, woman and child of them wearing a Wilkinstown tracksuit and cap with the logo all over the place. Nothing wrong with that at all. It shows esprit de corps, it promotes pride in your club, it serves notice to the others on the range to watch out, because our shooters have arrived (and let me tell you that personally, being over there and wearing that uniform, that was a serious source of pride). Those are positive things that I wish we'd see a lot more of from clubs.

The National Team has the same idea, but because the National Team represents everyone, there should be higher standards applied to the organising of the Team. And since we pay for the National Team through contributions and our taxes (that's what the Sports Council administrative grants and the Carding Grants and a portion of entry fees from national competitions and so on tend to be spent on), those standards need to be fair and honest and above reproach! Not organised in the dark by a group of people who don't tell us what they do, for their friends, with little planning or training and no procedures save what's inside someone's head somewhere.

Clash

Sparks wrote:

But the old halcyon days' traditions don't have to be abandoned. The Wilkinstown Target Shooting Club just sent nineteen people over to Bisley last month, yada yada yada

My point Sparks, if you'd put your specs on, was about having 'Irish Team' printed on the T-Shirts....

gouda

The Phoenix shoot in Bisley is open to indivduals and the team(s) going from here are not receiving any funding from any of the shooting associations, they are travelling at their own expense (unless their individual clubs are helping out). The team will only be representing Ireland because they are Irish. There can be no qualification shoot here because there are no licensed 38 or 45 pistol calibre carbines here. The shooters are going because the SSAI received an invitation to send people over. The people going are volunteering to go and do not need to qualify. Anyone could volunteer to go and would probably be representing Ireland because they travelled from Ireland. As stated earlier the competition is open to all so anyone could volunteer to go. There is a lot being made of the fact that the invitation was circulated by email and therefore only SSAI members or clubs were notified, it's irrelevant how the info was circulated. Incidentally, I was not notified of the Wilkinstown trip to the UK, there must be some sinister reason why I wasn't told, if Sparks logic on this is followed. In fact anyone out there who hasn't received information about any forthcoming shoots anywhere in the world must be getting left out because of this conspiracy. Let's all just put away the handbags and get back to interesting stuff.

Clash

gouda wrote:

The team will only be representing Ireland because they are Irish.

Great, I am looking forward to my next shoot abroad, when I can put 'Irish Team' on my T-Shirt.

There can be no qualification shoot here because there are no licensed 38 or 45 pistol calibre carbines here.

You can hold a qualifying shoot with .22's, the format is the same, there's just a louder bang

Anyone could volunteer to go

Providing they were asked.

and would probably be representing Ireland because they travelled from Ireland.

Probably.....

Incidentally, I was not notified of the Wilkinstown trip to the UK, there must be some sinister reason why I wasn't told.

Definitely... if you are a member of Wilkinstown

if Sparks logic on this is followed. In fact anyone out there who hasn't received information about any forthcoming shoots anywhere in the world must be getting left out because of this conspiracy.

Well that clinches it for me.

Let's all just put away the handbags and get back to interesting stuff.

And I thought it was just getting interesting..
Hangs up handbag
Yawn

Off to bed now

..Night night

Sparks

gouda wrote:

The team will only be representing Ireland because they are Irish. There can be no qualification shoot here because there are no licensed 38 or 45 pistol calibre carbines here.

So what you're saying is, it's a half-assed approach to organising a team, that the NRPAI's sending a group of mates of the NRPAI over as the Irish Team just because they can?
Not Good Enough.

And as to the "we couldn't run a qualification" excuse, that's guff too - the same excuse was used for the Tyrol Open. "No, we can't run a qualification, where would we shoot it?" followed only days later by adverts of all the practical pistol shooting taking place with NITSA. If you wanted to run a qualification shoot, you could, it's that simple.

The shooters are going because the SSAI received an invitation to send people over.

So why not pass on that invitation to the relevant body, the NASRC? Why try to organise a team at all? Organising a team in response to an invitation is the action of a governing body; the NRPAI is not a governing body. See the conflict?

Anyone could volunteer to go and would probably be representing Ireland because they travelled from Ireland.

Nope. It's a pretty standard thing that the National Team is nominated by the National Governing Body. Any random lad off the street can't go and claim to be part of the Irish National Team, that'd be a joke! Would you go to the Olympics and claim to be part of the Irish Team because you were Irish?

As stated earlier the competition is open to all so anyone could volunteer to go.

Yup, and they ought to, there's much to be learnt and brought home to be used here. It happens all the time with shoots like the Isle of Man Easter Shoot, Bisley matches, and other shoots like that. But individuals going to a match and the National Team being sent to a match are two very different things.

There is a lot being made of the fact that the invitation was circulated by email and therefore only SSAI members or clubs were notified,

To repeat, the only members that are meant to be in the NRPAI are the NTSA, NASRC, NSA and Pony Club Tetrathlon. So this "NRPAI members" malarky is guff for a start. And to repeat another point, the correct action here was for the NRPAI to pass the invitation on to the relevant body, the NASRC, at which point they could go and decide what was to be done.

it's irrelevant how the info was circulated.

Bullcrap. If this is an open process, why circulate it to a restricted group? There are those of us who've been denied access to that list, by the way, and I don't just mean myself! It seems that only the friends of the NRPAI get information from them.

Incidentally, I was not notified of the Wilkinstown trip to the UK, there must be some sinister reason why I wasn't told, if Sparks logic on this is followed.

If you were a member of Wilkinstown and didn't get notice, then yes! Everyone in Wilkinstown knew this trip was being planned because planning started months in advance. The invitation was open to anyone in the club. Which was fair and proper for a club shoot. Nothing about it was hidden, regular updates were sent out leading up to the shoot.

In fact anyone out there who hasn't received information about any forthcoming shoots anywhere in the world must be getting left out because of this conspiracy.

Baloney. That's not at all like what's happened here.

Let's all just put away the handbags and get back to interesting stuff.

And let this crap go on behind us? Why? Those who compete have a vested interest in the national team being run properly because it's a goal to aim for; and those who plink have an interest because it's their name being represented too. And don't try to characterise this as a minor thing - this was the NRPAI stepping out of line again and getting caught, plain and simple. This individual event isn't just a wrongdoing in and of itself, it's also indicitive of a systemic problem in the NRPAI - one which will not be solved by pretending it isn't there!

gouda

Sparks wrote:

So what you're saying is, it's a half-assed approach to organising a team, that the NRPAI's sending a group of mates of the NRPAI over as the Irish Team just because they can?
Not Good Enough.

And as to the "we couldn't run a qualification" excuse, that's guff too - the same excuse was used for the Tyrol Open. "No, we can't run a qualification, where would we shoot it?" followed only days later by adverts of all the practical pistol shooting taking place with NITSA. If you wanted to run a qualification shoot, you could, it's that simple.


So why not pass on that invitation to the relevant body, the NASRC? Why try to organise a team at all? Organising a team in response to an invitation is the action of a governing body; the NRPAI is not a governing body. See the conflict?


Nope. It's a pretty standard thing that the National Team is nominated by the National Governing Body. Any random lad off the street can't go and claim to be part of the Irish National Team, that'd be a joke! Would you go to the Olympics and claim to be part of the Irish Team because you were Irish?


Yup, and they ought to, there's much to be learnt and brought home to be used here. It happens all the time with shoots like the Isle of Man Easter Shoot, Bisley matches, and other shoots like that. But individuals going to a match and the National Team being sent to a match are two very different things.


To repeat, the only members that are meant to be in the NRPAI are the NTSA, NASRC, NSA and Pony Club Tetrathlon. So this "NRPAI members" malarky is guff for a start. And to repeat another point, the correct action here was for the NRPAI to pass the invitation on to the relevant body, the NASRC, at which point they could go and decide what was to be done.


Bullcrap. If this is an open process, why circulate it to a restricted group? There are those of us who've been denied access to that list, by the way, and I don't just mean myself! It seems that only the friends of the NRPAI get information from them.


If you were a member of Wilkinstown and didn't get notice, then yes! Everyone in Wilkinstown knew this trip was being planned because planning started months in advance. The invitation was open to anyone in the club. Which was fair and proper for a club shoot. Nothing about it was hidden, regular updates were sent out leading up to the shoot.


Baloney. That's not at all like what's happened here.


And let this crap go on behind us? Why? Those who compete have a vested interest in the national team being run properly because it's a goal to aim for; and those who plink have an interest because it's their name being represented too. And don't try to characterise this as a minor thing - this was the NRPAI stepping out of line again and getting caught, plain and simple. This individual event isn't just a wrongdoing in and of itself, it's also indicitive of a systemic problem in the NRPAI - one which will not be solved by pretending it isn't there!

Sorry, I thought I made it clear, there is no National Team going to Phoenix. There is a group of about eight or ten individuals, possibly more, travelling to compete at Phoenix. Perhaps the problem lies with Bisley for not publishing the invitation in the National media? That would have reached a much bigger audience. What am I thinking, that would only reach the people who buy papers! How do we get the info out to everybody? Probably do a leaflet drop to every household in the country? The email circulation is currently the most cost effective and efficient way of getting the info out to the largest group of shooters. I suppose you are not going to volunteer to go and compete? It would provide a great opportunity to see exactly how well Irish shooters do in the competition.

TrapperJohn

Looks like the NRPAI have been caught with their pant's down once again!

I have to say it looks like Sparks has the right angle on this and has caught the NRPAI trying to organise a team outside of its remit, be it an "official" team or not, it is not in the NRPAI's power to constitue a team under any circumstances. That is solely the responsibilty for the NGB of the discipline concerned. Even if there was no NGB in place they must delegate such a role to an NGB, preferably one with experience in a closely related discipline.

I have to say guys, this is a classic case of trying to defend the in-defensible! and it really does smack of the NRPAI trying to usurp the position of the NGB's. :mad:

Clash

gouda wrote:

Sorry, I thought I made it clear, there is no National Team going to Phoenix. There is a group of about eight or ten individuals, possibly more, travelling to compete at Phoenix.

Well that's OK then... but..

gouda 13-10-2004, 18:50 wrote:

Re: Tirol Open
Probably because of the short notice, NRPAI members were emailed on this and asked if they were interested in attending. Selection was indeed done from a hat (or drum or whatever).

http://homepage.eircom.net/~ntsai/TirolInternational04.htm
And lo and behold there were 'Team Ireland' polo shirts and baseball caps in abundance

rrpc

Clash wrote:

And lo and behold there were 'Team Ireland' polo shirts and baseball caps in abundance

Well spotted that man :cool: I knew I had a feeling of deja vu all over again about this one.

Can't wait to see the photographs :rolleyes:

Sparks

Got this via a rather roundabout email today (I think it had been forwarded through at least two people). The rather circuitous route says a lot, to my mind, right off the bat...

---

Original Message

---

From: SSAI PRO
To: SSAI
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:33 PM
Subject: Phoenix Shoot May Fri - Mon, 27th, 28th, 29th & 30th
Dear All

It has been brought to my attention that there is some confusion among
individuals, who may or may not be members of the SSAI with regards to our
proposed participation at the above shoot:

Let me clarify the matter very specifically least there be any confusion:

1) The NASRC have formed a working relationship with the Bisley Group who
organise Gallery Rifle
2) The NARGC have been invited to send a team to the shoot, who or what is
being represented is not the issue, there is an invitation that will be taken up.

So was it the NARGC that got the invitation? In which case, it had to be passed on to the NRPAI in the first place, so why wasn't it passed on to the NARGC, who it seems the NRPAI are well aware are running Gallery Rifle in Ireland...

3) Pat Herlihey of the NASRC asked me to circulate appropriate
information about the shoot to encourage participation.

Under the name of the NRPAI?

4) I am unaware if there will be a qualification shoot, for the Tyrol competition
it was necessary to see who could travel, who were competent
in the use of the appropriate firearms and who would be willing to fly the
flag, at this early stage of the introduction of new sports it is not
practical to hold qualification shoots, in particular because there is a
shortage of appropriate firearms and facilities to hold such a
qualification.

In other words, lets grab anyone we can think of and send them off, irregardless of whether or not they're the best in the country. And as to it being impractical to hold qualification shoots, baloney. It could have been done with relative ease - observe the number of competitions that have happened in NITSA since the Tyrol Open, and the number of competitions that had happened prior to it in NITSA, EARC, Comber and other N.Ireland clubs. Or was there opposition to using a N.Ireland range? That would seem exceptionally unusual given the degree of cross-border relations that have always existed between target shooting clubs North and South.

Charges have been levelled with regard to the selective nature of the
circulation of the e-mail, let me be very specific in this regard, all
contacts on my mailing address book are there because they have indicated
a desire to be kept informed, all mails are circulated on Bcc for security
considerations:

Well, let me be specific in my reply so. The list is a restrictive one, and there are people who aren't on it who've asked to be on it. I'm one. I've asked several times, formally, as an NTSA committee member, to be put on that list, and the FLAG list as well. Here's what I got by email the last time I asked (still as an NTSA representative at the time):

... I did consciously remove you from my mailing list because I was
fed up of the bull**** responses that I got on too many occasions and I have
no intention of adding you again if the mails would be the subject of
discussion by nameless faceless people on a bulletin board.

( "Bull**** responses" in this case meant disagreeing with what was said in press releases and pointing out that press releases with factual inaccuracies were not helpful to anyone. So I guess I'm permanently on a blackballed list somewhere. Odd thing to happen for telling the truth, isn't it? )

Who is circulated:
1) SSAI Committee (all members of affiliated associations)

Though I will note remembering hearing the NTSA chairman mention a while ago that he wasn't on that list. And I remember meetings where the NRPAI PRO made it abundantly clear that he didn't view the NTSA chairman as being welcome, one of which was supposed to be a national strategy planning meeting to draft the Strategic Plan for the sport that the Sports Council wanted.

2) SSAI registered clubs (of which there are in the region of 20)

Registered, or members?

3) Individual SSAI members not in a club or affiliated to the associations

Interesting to note that these exist at all, since the NRPAI isn't meant to have individual members - it was not supposed to be anything more involved than a single contact point for the Sports Council (and it's predecessor). It was never meant to have individual members. And what rights do those members have? Can one NRPAI member outvote an NRPAI constituent body at the AGM, as it was claimed was done validly this year?

4) Some firearms dealers who have also expressed an interest in being kept
in the loop.

So why not the rest of us as well then?

It is open to each person circulated on the list to forward the
information contained in the mail (clearly it has because it was published
on the web).

Said as though that were a bad thing. What exactly is the problem with publishing stuff on the web? Are we doing things that are so underhanded that we can't afford to do them in public? And if so, who the hell authorised people to do that in other people's names?

In summary the circulation is very wide, it is not a select few.

And yet, individuals who raise the ire of the PRO can be struck from the list...

It is
early days for a lot of sports that are new to us and we cannot be perfect
in all things we do.

Who the hell demanded perfection? I believe the idea was just to demand that we do things right if we're sending abroad a National Team, and to let the NGB actually govern the sport. Does anyone else think that that's demanding perfection?

I do not believe we have been caught with our pants
down as was commented on by a "Trapperjohn" on the bulletin board. If one
believes all the crap that is published on this site then it is not
unbelievable that they may have a shaded view.

If as much effort was put into promoting the sport as there appears to be
going into peoples efforts to cause as much trouble as possible then we
would clearly have a much healthier sport. With attitudes being displayed
in such a public forum I really fear for the future stability of the
sport.

Pah. Last time I checked, we just saw the largest team ever to go abroad from a club last month, we've gotten people sent off to be accredited as competition judges, there's the first air pistol match this weekend, and, oh yeah, we have a new discussion forum and set of webpages so we can disseminate information to anyone who wants it, thus getting more people interested in our sport.
Off-hand, I'd say that was promotional, but maybe I'm just daft?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=243897

Have a look for your selves and make your own mind up.

I'm at the stage where I am sick of the whole lot of it!

Regards
Declan
SSAI PRO

Well, if it's making you sick, and you're writing letters to the Irish Shooters Digest complaining that you're oh-so-tired of doing a voluntary job, well, there's a pretty obvious solution, I would have thought. Retire. Take a year or two off, recharge the batteries and then come back refreshed.

Frankly, it ought to be mandatory - get new blood in there, keep energy levels reasonably high, and distribute the experience to lots of people, rather than get one bloke, stick him in a slot, then run him into the ground until he's tired, doesn't want to try new things, is constantly annoyed at things, and then he goes away and the whole system comes down about your ears.

civdef

I suppose it'd be expecting a lot for people to post their reponses here rather than complaining about the fact that other people express their opinions?

Anyone, as someone not involved in either side of this, it's providing great entertainment value....

fiacha

to be honest, i'm getting a bit tired of all the bitching.

i'm trying my best to see Sparks point of view here, but i don't think that this approach is going to improve relations between any of the groups.

Clash

Sparks wrote:

So was it the NARGC that got the invitation? In which case, it had to be passed on to the NRPAI in the first place, so why wasn't it passed on to the NARGC, who it seems the NRPAI are well aware are running Gallery Rifle in Ireland...

I think that may be a typo, he refers to the NASRC in the preceding paragraph and then the NARGC jumps in. You've just done the same thing (I think you meant NASRC where I have marked NARGC in bold italics)

... I did consciously remove you from my mailing list because I was
fed up of the bull**** responses that I got on too many occasions and I haveno intention of adding you again if the mails would be the subject of
discussion by nameless faceless people on a bulletin board.

Two points come to mind: It seems that we faceless, nameless people here (that's all of us folks) are not entitled to discuss any developments that are happening in our sport, or be critical or even constructive of things that are being done in our name. On the other hand, I can feel some sympathy for his position given Sparks propensity to reply to anything - Average posts 5.4 per day :eek:

btw, it might be of interest to start a poll of people on this board to see if they are on this list, either forwarded by their clubs or directly themselves.

So why not the rest of us as well then?

The NRPAI have a website, why don't they put such things there?. I note that the NTSA does this.

And yet, individuals who raise the ire of the PRO can be struck from the list...

Well this one really pisses me off - not on your behalf Sarks mind - but the possibility that other individuals or clubs could be in the same position without knowing it, for some past indiscretion real or imagined

Pah. Last time I checked, we just saw the largest team ever to go abroad from a club last month, we've gotten people sent off to be accredited as competition judges, there's the first air pistol match this weekend....

Stop using that word, I hate it (irrationally?). It's like 'could of' instead of 'could have'.

than get one bloke, stick him in a slot, then run him into the ground until he's tired, doesn't want to try new things, is constantly annoyed at things, and then he goes away and the whole system comes down about your ears.

Are you applying?

gouda

Sparks wrote:

Got this via a rather roundabout email today (I think it had been forwarded through at least two people). The rather circuitous route says a lot, to my mind, right off the bat...


So was it the NARGC that got the invitation? In which case, it had to be passed on to the NRPAI in the first place, so why wasn't it passed on to the NARGC, who it seems the NRPAI are well aware are running Gallery Rifle in Ireland...

Under the name of the NRPAI?

In other words, lets grab anyone we can think of and send them off, irregardless of whether or not they're the best in the country. And as to it being impractical to hold qualification shoots, baloney. It could have been done with relative ease - observe the number of competitions that have happened in NITSA since the Tyrol Open, and the number of competitions that had happened prior to it in NITSA, EARC, Comber and other N.Ireland clubs. Or was there opposition to using a N.Ireland range? That would seem exceptionally unusual given the degree of cross-border relations that have always existed between target shooting clubs North and South.

Well, let me be specific in my reply so. The list is a restrictive one, and there are people who aren't on it who've asked to be on it. I'm one. I've asked several times, formally, as an NTSA committee member, to be put on that list, and the FLAG list as well. Here's what I got by email the last time I asked (still as an NTSA representative at the time):

... I did consciously remove you from my mailing list because I was
fed up of the bull**** responses that I got on too many occasions and I have
no intention of adding you again if the mails would be the subject of
discussion by nameless faceless people on a bulletin board.

( "Bull**** responses" in this case meant disagreeing with what was said in press releases and pointing out that press releases with factual inaccuracies were not helpful to anyone. So I guess I'm permanently on a blackballed list somewhere. Odd thing to happen for telling the truth, isn't it? )

Though I will note remembering hearing the NTSA chairman mention a while ago that he wasn't on that list. And I remember meetings where the NRPAI PRO made it abundantly clear that he didn't view the NTSA chairman as being welcome, one of which was supposed to be a national strategy planning meeting to draft the Strategic Plan for the sport that the Sports Council wanted.

Registered, or members?

Interesting to note that these exist at all, since the NRPAI isn't meant to have individual members - it was not supposed to be anything more involved than a single contact point for the Sports Council (and it's predecessor). It was never meant to have individual members. And what rights do those members have? Can one NRPAI member outvote an NRPAI constituent body at the AGM, as it was claimed was done validly this year?

So why not the rest of us as well then?

Said as though that were a bad thing. What exactly is the problem with publishing stuff on the web? Are we doing things that are so underhanded that we can't afford to do them in public? And if so, who the hell authorised people to do that in other people's names?

And yet, individuals who raise the ire of the PRO can be struck from the list...

Who the hell demanded perfection? I believe the idea was just to demand that we do things right if we're sending abroad a National Team, and to let the NGB actually govern the sport. Does anyone else think that that's demanding perfection?

Pah. Last time I checked, we just saw the largest team ever to go abroad from a club last month, we've gotten people sent off to be accredited as competition judges, there's the first air pistol match this weekend, and, oh yeah, we have a new discussion forum and set of webpages so we can disseminate information to anyone who wants it, thus getting more people interested in our sport.
Off-hand, I'd say that was promotional, but maybe I'm just daft?

Well, if it's making you sick, and you're writing letters to the Irish Shooters Digest complaining that you're oh-so-tired of doing a voluntary job, well, there's a pretty obvious solution, I would have thought. Retire. Take a year or two off, recharge the batteries and then come back refreshed.

Frankly, it ought to be mandatory - get new blood in there, keep energy levels reasonably high, and distribute the experience to lots of people, rather than get one bloke, stick him in a slot, then run him into the ground until he's tired, doesn't want to try new things, is constantly annoyed at things, and then he goes away and the whole system comes down about your ears.

Am I the only one who thinks this thing with Sparks and the SSAI PRO is personal?

Dvs

gouda said :
(quote)
Am I the only one who thinks this thing with Sparks and the SSAI PRO is personal?
(/quote)

Gouda,I doubt you are alone in that assumption.

while Sparks, is of course entitled to express his opinion here the same as anyone else.
It does somewhat detract from this forum that he seems to single out the SSAI for special treatment and its PRO in particular.

This is compounded by the fact that he is moderator,it begs the question would he accept this virtual mud slinging from another poster to this forum?

Dvs.

Sparks

Is it personal? I'd have to honestly say there's probably an element to it of that in regard to my response to the email you quoted gouda, but it's not as simple as you'd make out. If you want to really look into it (and most of this is up on the web, just use google), you'd find I'd done my best to work with the NRPAI's PRO for several years. I've written good things about him in public in the past and tried to support things like FLAG by giving them good press (and donating what little cash I had at the time), I've helped him with PR jobs when he was out of the country and couldn't do them himself, and I started working with no preconceptions relating to the man.

In return, at every turn, I had nothing but regret for having made the attempt. The NTSA tries to begin the process of strategic review for the sport by asking him what he thinks in an informal email; he writes an offical letter in response decrying us as uninformed incompetents to the sports council to scupper the mere thought of the process. We try to put out accurate press releases; he threatens us with legal action. I tell him to stop putting out press releases in our name that are factually inaccurate because it's giving us a bad name in the parts of the media that check their facts before going to press; I get cut from the NRPAI mailing lists. We try to have a review carried out of the carding grants so that they're more fair and useful to international shooters; he goes into the meeting with the DoJ and deliberately sabotages it, leaving one non-NTSA shooter with a grant that wasn't going to be threatened anyway, and denying grants to maybe a dozen NTSA shooters including Juniors.

Look, there's "erra, I don't like the look of him" personal (which is trivial and shouldn't be the basis of criticism) and there's "I've learnt through bitter and expensive experience that you can't trust the man" personal (which is valid since you can cite the experiences in question, as I've just done). This is the latter, and frankly, it's not dismissable because it's not just my conclusion alone. Clubs have refused to sign up to the NRPAI because of the treatment they've received at this man's hands, and for acts other than the ones I've just detailed. Ask around.

But even leaving the man aside for the moment, his acts are what are the real problem here. This whole thread started over an act, done by this chap in the NRPAI's name and which shouldn't have been done. That's it. End of story. Same degree of criticism should be applied to that act no matter who did it. It was wrong plain and simple. That's why I didn't bring up the NRPAI PRO until that email written by him where he badmouths us first (or did you miss that bit?). So you can dismiss my statements if you wish; but the fact that the act shouldn't have been committeed stands regardless, as does the fact that we started this by criticising the act independently of the person who committed it.

(BTW Dvs, Civdef's a mod here too y'know and he can edit my posts if he thinks I'm breaking the charter. There are no sacred cows here, or at least that's how I'd like it to be. But since I've stated what I've just stated above in official written complaints in the past, it's not so much mud-slinging as reporting).

Clash

gouda wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks this thing with Sparks and the SSAI PRO is personal?

No, I don't think so, although it appears that this is a two way street...

... I did consciously remove you from my mailing list because I was fed up of the bull**** responses that I got on too many occasions and I have no intention of adding you again if the mails would be the subject of discussion by nameless faceless people on a bulletin board.

There's no doubt that Sparks is carrying a certain amount of emotional baggage with regard to the SSAI PRO, but that appears to be reciprocated as evidenced by the above quote. However that doesn't mean that we have to suspend our critical faculties when reading this stuff, I imagine we are all intelligent enough to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

dvs wrote:

This is compounded by the fact that he is moderator, it begs the question would he accept this virtual mud slinging from another poster to this forum?

Well I expect that civdef would act in such cases. However it seems to me that the message is getting caught up with the messenger, and perhaps Sparks would be well advised to reread his posts objectively through the eyes of a newcomer to this board. It might be worth it for him to just post such emails as started this thread without comment, and allow the rest of the board to do so instead. It can be annoying sometimes to read these comments which smack of "Listen up while I explain this to the remedial class".

Dvs

Hello All,
Sparks states as a justification for some of his SSAI Pro bashing, a quote from an e-mail sent to him by the SSAI Pro,

(quote)
I did consciously remove you from my mailing list because I was fed up of the bull**** responses that I got on too many occasions and I have no intention of adding you again if the mails would be the subject of discussion by nameless faceless people on a bulletin board.
(/quote)

Correct me if I am wrong Sparks, but is it not fair to say that the mailing list in question is private one and these mailings are not published in the public domain even if some of the information is available in the public domain from other sources.

This being the case, is it not fair comment to not wish the mailings to be reproduced here in full or in part.

To be then discussed by all us nameless faceless individuals with the only person named in all this disscusion being the SSAI Pro.

Would everyone here like to have their e-mails posted here without their consent? to then be discussed?

not me!

if anybody wishes to discuss specific matters relating to the actions or inactions of any shooting NGB or umberella body or club for that matter,
is is a public forum that is visited by people other than those of us, whom have a positive involvement in shooting sports the correct place to do that?

Regards,
Dvs.

Sparks

Correct me if I am wrong Sparks, but is it not fair to say that the mailing list in question is private one and these mailings are not published in the public domain even if some of the information is available in the public domain from other sources.

Is it run as a private email list? Yes.
Should it be run as a private email list? No.
If the NRPAI wants to talk for all of us, it should not only talk to all of us, but listen to us as well.

To be then discussed by all us nameless faceless individuals with the only person named in all this disscusion being the SSAI Pro.

Who, if you follow the thread, brought that down on his own head.

Would everyone here like to have their e-mails posted here without their consent? to then be discussed?

And hold up right there. This wasn't a private email. This was an email sent by the NRPAI PRO to the NTSA PRO. It's an official statement from the umbrella body to a member NGB. It's fair game. I've sent and received private emails to and from the lad in question and those aren't - but then again, I had one of those private emails sent in an official letter to the sports council with the NRPAI PRO doing his best to paint the NTSA as being daft and uninformed, mostly though judicial stretching of the english language.

if anybody wishes to discuss specific matters relating to the actions or inactions of any shooting NGB or umberella body or club for that matter,
is is a public forum that is visited by people other than those of us, whom have a positive involvement in shooting sports the correct place to do that?

It's certainly not the place to start it. However, all of the above has been submitted to the NTSA and through them to the NRPAI in the past as official complaints, and nothing was ever done. So if airing laundry in public is what it takes to get the NRPAI to cop itself on and start doing the job it's meant to do instead of the job that individuals in it feel like doing, then I've no compunction over that. If there's something being done in my name that wouldn't stand up to the light of day, I don't want it being done in my name!

glocko

Its so obvious that the NRPAI is just a means to facilitate the asperations of one man in a one man show, this mefein attitude is wearing a bit thin and doing untold damage to sports shooting in Ireland. its time for this misrepresentation to stop, its causing to much devision amongst a very large group of people who share a common interest. this common interest gives us the numbers to lobby the government and get a better deal. We need to select fairly in a tranparent manner those indviduals with the skill and talent to represent Ireland at international level. If Declan was an German army officer at the end of the second world war, well, he would be expected to do the desent thing! :cool:

BlackDot

As to nameless faces, Sparks has his name openly available and that is his choice. I do suspect that personel relations between Sparks and the SSAI PRO have gone downhill but they started off fairly good.

However going well back to the issue regarding the NRPAI/NTSA and disabled shooters there are some little bits that should be realised

1) The most likely reason the NTSA delegates did not have a good response was most likely that they had no advance warning that this issue was going to come up. It was raised under AOB as those of you at the meeting will remember.

2) At the time the SSAI PRO stated that his reason for bringing this issue up was as a result of communications from the PCI. The PRO himself said that the NTSA were the current people responsible for relations with the PCI. That begs the question, if he had a genuine interest in the development of the sport, why the hell did he not pass these correspondences to the NTSA (He did not!). Instead he chose to spring the issue on NTSA delegates in a manner which I believe was aimed at causing maximum discomfort to the NTSA delegates.

The question that I ponder is what is the SSAI's PRO's end goal? He mentioned at the AGM the importance rebranding of the SSAI but to what end, he himself said this was yet to be decided.

fourtycoats

I did not know until now that this BB existed. Having read through the recent posts I am horrified that the Irish Club Curse seems to have struck again. Stand back from all of this, or see it from anew as I have just done. What I see is an immense amount of wingeing, of critizising the actions of those people who have made the effort to move our sport forward, however imperfectly. What I do not see , are any sensible suggestions, coupled with actual offers to do work, organize events, run competitions or just get stuck in. All sporting clubs or organisations consist of those who do and those who suggest it could have been done better. The problem with bulletin boards is that they enable the critics to complain incognito. This will be my one and only post. If you want to use your energy disagreeing with me then you have missed the point. Talk directly to those with whom you disagree. If you are a member ot the organisations you are critisizing. get on the committee and change things. If you are not a member , join. We have enough structure already. What we need are people who do things instead of complaining. My name is Sean McElwain. My e-mail is Sean_mcelwain@ yahoo.co.uk.

Sparks

What I do not see , are any sensible suggestions, coupled with actual offers to do work, organize events, run competitions or just get stuck in.

I don't particularly like blowing my own trumpet, but I'm currently still shattered from having been one of the three people who ran this this weekend, and I think I'm fairly safe from accusations that I'm throwing rocks from the sidelines given the work I've been doing with organising events, running competitions, coaching, helping run clubs and associations and that sort of thing for the past seven years.

The problem with bulletin boards is that they enable the critics to complain incognito.

No, that's their strength. I've seen first-hand what happens in this sport when you make a complaint in public. You can get your head stomped on by a committee which, despite not having done anything for the sport in months, suddenly gets a burst of energy to use in rebutting any and all complaints in a way that spin doctors everywhere would feel in awe of. And then, of course, the complainer's card is marked. No more notices of training or competition, badmouthing in the pub after matches, the whole nine yards. And it's been going on like that for donkey's years now.

So having a place where you can point out that the emperor has no clothes without fear of recrimination is a good thing.

But anyway, these complaints were made to the NTSA and NRPAI first anyway. Officially and in writing. Years ago in some cases. And nothing was done.

Clash

fourtycoats wrote:

I did not know until now that this BB existed. Having read through the recent posts I am horrified that the Irish Club Curse seems to have struck again. Stand back from all of this, or see it from anew as I have just done. What I see is an immense amount of wingeing, of critizising the actions of those people who have made the effort to move our sport forward, however imperfectly. What I do not see , are any sensible suggestions, coupled with actual offers to do work, organize events, run competitions or just get stuck in.

You quite obviously have not read any other threads on this board

All sporting clubs or organisations consist of those who do and those who suggest it could have been done better.

What a stupid generalisation

The problem with bulletin boards is that they enable the critics to complain incognito.

It's a problem alright if you're the one being complained about. It must be a pain in the arse not being able to threaten people who disagree with you.

This will be my one and only post. If you want to use your energy disagreeing with me then you have missed the point.

In your opinion. This is a discussion board, not a forum for would be dictators.

Talk directly to those with whom you disagree.

Read the thread again and see what happened to those who did.

If you are a member ot the organisations you are critisizing. get on the committee and change things. If you are not a member , join.

Except if you have been told that you are not welcome

We have enough structure already.

Some would say too much.

What we need are people who do things instead of complaining.

We need both.