Moving Out of Body, Belief Changing

MeatProduct

After the suggestion from Goodshape I have started this thread. Sleepy mentioned that he/she does not believe there is life after death and I was certainly of the same belief not too long ago. We go though little or no experiences that challenge this belief in daily life so we go on, beliefs unchallenged.

Perhaps three or four years ago I had an engrossing discussion with my deeply interesting grand uncle. The conversation spanned many hours and covered many topics that my narrow perception had trouble dealing with but my intense curiosity kept me open. At one stage he recommend a book to me by Robert Monroe, "Journeys Out Of The Body". I had heard of out of body experiences before this but I had only associated them with near death experiences, and that's where my interest stopped since somehow I assumed that it could only be experienced in a near-death state. Well this book changed all that. After reading it I read the next two books that he had written, the three books are to be read in order as they track Robert's progress and development. It is mindblowing stuff

Robert started the Monroe Insitiute (he is dead now) and they produce material and courses that allow people to move out of body. The website can be found here. They have a cd collection available for those who do not wish to travel to the USA to attend one of their retreats. I have this CD set (a compilation of 42 sessions) and I highly recommend it.

The reason I discuss this method is because I think it is the most accessible to the western mind. Out of body states can occur in states of deep meditation, various yogic practices as well as shamanic practices and plenty others I have no idea about People sometimes go out of body in moments of extreme stress or tension also.

Nick

Edit:It would be great to hear people's experiences on this topic and how it changed their outlook on life.

If anyone is interested I could elaborate on the technique the the Monroe Institute uses (it's covered on their site also).

Goodshape

MeatProduct - have these techniques been successful for you?

I've been interested in this sort of stuff for a fair few years and have tried different techniques at various times - however I have never managed to see any of it through to what I would call completion. I would spend a few weeks to a month maybe trying various meditation techniques, and then do nothing for months on end and loose any 'progress' I made. At the moment I've got very little opportunity for meditation of any kind, which is unfortunate (too much work, noisy flatmates, social life and a mild depression that isn't helping much), but I'll have a look out for those books you mention.

Another site on the subject -> http://www.astraldynamics.com/

MeatProduct

Goodshape wrote:

MeatProduct - have these techniques been successful for you?

I've been interested in this sort of stuff for a fair few years and have tried different techniques at various times - however I have never managed to see any of it through to what I would call completion. I would spend a few weeks to a month maybe trying various meditation techniques, and then do nothing for months on end and loose any 'progress' I made. At the moment I've got very little opportunity for meditation of any kind, which is unfortunate (too much work, noisy flatmates, social life and a mild depression that isn't helping much), but I'll have a look out for those books you mention.

Another site on the subject -> http://www.astraldynamics.com/

Goodshape, I have that site bookmarked It's a good site. I've never gone out of body via meditation but I did have some states of trance, when I was a lot younger, during meditation. I'm having difficulty with my meditation practices now. I really understand the noise problem, it's so difficult to draw the senses inwards but this is what must be done (I have not managed this at all recently).

You are exactly right with what you said. All progress can easily be lost once the training is broken. It has been the same for me with the Monroe series. I have had varying degrees of success but I would not say that I have been completely successful in leaving my body in a controlled and fearless state so that I could explore. I've gone back to the start of the Monroe sessions and I'm sticking with each session until I am 100% happy with it and that I have taken all I can from it rather than rushing like I did before. If nothing else these sessions are very relaxing and I am always energised after doing them.

I really do recommend those books, they added a whole different perspective to my life.

Nick

PS: It would be great if a few of us could start the Monroe series together and support and learn from eachother. It might give the additional motivation needed.

stevenmu

I have experienced astral travelling while I slept, which I think is pretty much the same thing. It wasn't clear enough for me to really have a strong view on whether my mind was really leaving my body or if it was just my mind playing tricks on me in my dream state. I downloaded a course a while ago from MysticWeb (they also have explanations about what astral travel is and some experience reports aswell). It's supposed to help you learn to control it and experience it better to the point where some people claim they can leave their bodies at will (not just when they sleep).

I'm pretty much convinced that there's something to Scientific/Controlled Remote Viewing (SRV/CRV). Perhaps viewing is the spirit partially leaving the body but only enough to be vaguely aware of things, almost transparently if that makes sense, whereas out of body experiences and astral projection are the spirit more fully leaving the body

MeatProduct

Hi StevenMu, (does the Mu part of your name refer to Lemuria?)

I recall trying that course a while ago when it was being released one week at a time and because I didn't have anough cop on at the time I stopped doing it. A friend of mine who was doing it at the same time had some sucess with it though.

Did you have your experiences during that course?

Nick

stevenmu

Nope, I even had to google Lemuria to see what it was. It's actually just a login name I had in a place I used to work, I got fed up trying to remember different login names for everything so always use that for anything I sign up to. I've been meaning to try and change it to something a bit more signifigant now that I use boards regularly, guess I don't have to bother now

I didn't really put much effort into the course yet, altough I have all the bits and pieces downloaded. Altough even just from glancing quickly through bits of it and keeping it in mind I did feel vibrations as I was falling asleep which is one of the signs that you're entering the astral plane. I didn't want to go too much into it at the time though, I'd been having problems sleeping for a few years and it was really getting on top of me, I needed to sort that out before I went playing around before I experimented with anything sleep related. I've been sleeping pretty well the last month or two so I might give it a proper go soon. Interestingly the main reasons I was having problems with sleep are that either I'd feel myself losing conciousness as I was falling asleep which would wake me straight up again, or else I'd realise while I was sleeping that I was just dreaming which would again wake me up. Both of these symptoms seem to be mentioned alot in relation to astral travelling.

The experiences I had were all actually before I found out about the course, I'd posted about them on the paranormal forum and someone gave me a link to the mysticweb site. There was a forum on their course for people taking it, I never really participated in it but there were a few people posting success stories, so I'm pretty confident I can get some kind of result with it.

stevenmu

In terms of changing my beliefs, I suppose I do take it as a kind of personal proof. It's not something I'd expect anyone else to believe or be convinced by, but it's enough to increase the possibility in my own mind that I'm not completly crazy. Up until a few years ago I was a complete and utter skeptic and in many ways I still am. I think it's important to maintain a healthy skepticism, unless you want to be taken in by every passing cult, but it's nice to come across things which can challenge it and force me to re-evaluate things.

transperson

has anyone had OutOfBody experiences?
doesnt seem clear from the posts so far, i for one have never had any but am fascinated by the possibility but sceptical.


but it always strikes me as strange how there is always so much stuff for sale on the websites of these new agey things?
if the other realms and the true reality are so accessable then why do those with access use it to make themselves richer and more respected?
it leaves a bad taste when they seem to be after what little money i have.

americanCat

I'm not exactly sure whether or not I've had an out of body experience. I do know that once when i was dreaming I went wandering around this small two-story mall. During that dream, i found this really cool band store, but i didn't go inside the store. A couple of months passed in real life, and then i dreamt that i went to the same place. I mean, it was the exact same mall, yet it had changed a little like a mall would in real life. Anyways, i went back to where the record store was, but the place was closed and empty and there was a sign on the door saying that the store had moved. Another couple of months later and i was back at the same mall. I went to go see what had taken the band store's place and i found this interesting looking arts and crafts store. I decided not to go inside, and instead went to the food court and got a cookies and cream shake.

These are three seperate dreams that happened with a long period of time in between each, yet the mall was the exact same each time i had that dream. But, it's not the same exact dream everytime, but the same place. What i'm wondering is did I have an out of body experience and actually visit that mall somewhere????? Or do i just have very odd dreams?

Goodshape

transperson - yea, I don't like being asked to pay for spiritual enlightenment. Seems like an oxymoron to me. Although the Monroe Institute site does state in the small print at the bottom that it's a 'non-profit education and research organization' - but I haven't browsed that site much yet. The Astral Dynamics site definitely has a lot of information for no cost at all.

I've never had an out of body experience myself, but am similarly fascinated by the possibility and have spoken to people who have managed it.

americanCat - Sounds interesting at the least. Did you know you were dreaming when you were? I don't suppose you know which mall you were supposedly in ?

McGinty

I've never had an out of body experience on the conscious level, yet. However it happens to me a lot in my sleep, and only last week I got complete proof that it really happened. I am friends with a couple who have split up, during my sleep, I saw her ex-husbands new place, he was standing looking at all his boxs of stuff, wondering where to put the stuff. Prior to seeing him there I didn't know where he is living. The next morning I spoke with my friend and told her where her ex husband has moved to it, I was 99.9% confident that he moved to this place. It was confirmed that afternoon when I saw his car. This blew me away, yet I wasn't suprised. I believe my spirit left my body, observed him moving (in another time dimension), saw the place, and then came back to my body.

I know I 'travel' a lot in my sleep, as often I see disasters and call out to the people and they can't hear me. I need a lot of sleep, more so than most people, about 9-10 hours a night. If I go three or four days without an early night I become almost psychotic, and I'm unable to do night shifts (I did for three weeks and ended up in the doctors). However I would like to travel consciously, but its a bit scary, as my mind is very controlling, and as yet I don't like giving up the reins. I've also woken up where I have felt my spirit enter my body, and its only then that 'I' am there. It is the weirdest sensation ever.

MeatProduct

McGinty wrote:

I've never had an out of body experience on the conscious level, yet. However it happens to me a lot in my sleep, and only last week I got complete proof that it really happened. I am friends with a couple who have split up, during my sleep, I saw her ex-husbands new place, he was standing looking at all his boxs of stuff, wondering where to put the stuff. Prior to seeing him there I didn't know where he is living. The next morning I spoke with my friend and told her where her ex husband has moved to it, I was 99.9% confident that he moved to this place. It was confirmed that afternoon when I saw his car. This blew me away, yet I wasn't suprised. I believe my spirit left my body, observed him moving (in another time dimension), saw the place, and then came back to my body.

I know I 'travel' a lot in my sleep, as often I see disasters and call out to the people and they can't hear me. I need a lot of sleep, more so than most people, about 9-10 hours a night. If I go three or four days without an early night I become almost psychotic, and I'm unable to do night shifts (I did for three weeks and ended up in the doctors). However I would like to travel consciously, but its a bit scary, as my mind is very controlling, and as yet I don't like giving up the reins. I've also woken up where I have felt my spirit enter my body, and its only then that 'I' am there. It is the weirdest sensation ever.

Wow, that all sounds great. What might help you to gain more control is writing down your dreams. Set the alarm to wake at about 2am and write your dreams down then. Write them down again when you wake up at your normal time. This brings your consciousness into your dreams more and you become more aware of when you are dreaming. You could add to that by doing a concentration practice before you sleep. The one I used to use was to visualise a shape (any you like, I used a triangle) and just make it so that there is just the outline of this shape. This is all you focus on, after about ten mins you might notice that it will move and distort and maybe even become 3D. Let it flow, whatever happens for you but always keep your focus on this shape. This improves your focus and concentration which is needed if you are to control your dreams. Do this for 30 mins if you can (I could never do it for that long).

Nick

stevenmu

McGinty wrote:

However I would like to travel consciously, but its a bit scary, as my mind is very controlling, and as yet I don't like giving up the reins.

You should visit some of the websites mentioned in this thread. The mysticweb one I mention, and presumably the others, can teach you techniques that let you 'wake up' within your dreams so that you are consciously in control of everything that happens.

transperson wrote:

but it always strikes me as strange how there is always so much stuff for sale on the websites of these new agey things?
if the other realms and the true reality are so accessable then why do those with access use it to make themselves richer and more respected?
it leaves a bad taste when they seem to be after what little money i have.

I feel the same way you do. Many sites often seem to be there purely for profit, often by taking advantage of people. Many others though genuinely want to help people but they require some money both in order to fund the website and to allow themselves the time to work on it. The way I tell the difference is that if a site gives you the 'good stuff' for free and then asks for donations or sells 'extras' like posters, ornaments and CDs etc, I tend to think of it as genuine (not that I think everything they say is true, but there morals are good at least). I try to avoid sites that say you need to buy something in order to progress ("noone gets into heaven without a glowstick" etc).

MeatProduct

stevenmu wrote:

You should visit some of the websites mentioned in this thread. The mysticweb one I mention, and presumably the others, can teach you techniques that let you 'wake up' within your dreams so that you are consciously in control of everything that happens.

I feel the same way you do. Many sites often seem to be there purely for profit, often by taking advantage of people. Many others though genuinely want to help people but they require some money both in order to fund the website and to allow themselves the time to work on it. The way I tell the difference is that if a site gives you the 'good stuff' for free and then asks for donations or sells 'extras' like posters, ornaments and CDs etc, I tend to think of it as genuine (not that I think everything they say is true, but there morals are good at least). I try to avoid sites that say you need to buy something in order to progress ("noone gets into heaven without a glowstick" etc).

The majority of western minds do not value something unless they have to pay for it.

Nick

stevenmu

That's a good point, we're not used to anything worthwile being free, "you get what you pay for". That's one of the reasons I love the open-source software movement, not just because it means I get free stuff, but because it shows people are willing to dedicate themselves to providing something without expecting money in return.

edit: and of course the admins of boards.ie fall into that category aswell, putting a lot of effort into this site without making any profit out of it just because they think it's a good thing to do.

MeatProduct

stevenmu wrote:

That's a good point, we're not used to anything worthwile being free, "you get what you pay for". That's one of the reasons I love the open-source software movement, not just because it means I get free stuff, but because it shows people are willing to dedicate themselves to providing something without expecting money in return.

Yes, open-source is great. The worthiness of anything is the value that one gives it. Nothing else determines the value of anything, just the judging human mind. I believe the Monroe site does this as they are based in the States, a society that is very much matter-oriented. However, the best things in life are free (in a financial sense:) ).

Nick

transperson

the purple triangle technique reminds me of some strange states between sleep and wake called the Hypnagogic state between wakeing consiousness and dreaming, where the visual cortex is in action and you have striking vivid mental imagery without being asleep ,you can sence yourself going into and out of dreaming, consious of your surroundings and the control you have over the expeience, which fluctuates. its very rarely happened to me, but its cool and sometimes mind blowing, however i have no control over when it happens, it sounds like what meatproduct described with his purple triangle is similar, i'll defo try it.

lucid dreaming is class ,wandering around a dream knowing that its your own mind, or maybe its reality of its own

can anyone get control over i cant i can only observe!

MeatProduct

transperson wrote:

the purple triangle technique reminds me of some strange states between sleep and wake called the Hypnagogic state between wakeing consiousness and dreaming, where the visual cortex is in action and you have striking vivid mental imagery without being asleep ,you can sence yourself going into and out of dreaming, consious of your surroundings and the control you have over the expeience, which fluctuates. its very rarely happened to me, but its cool and sometimes mind blowing, however i have no control over when it happens, it sounds like what meatproduct described with his purple triangle is similar, i'll defo try it.

lucid dreaming is class ,wandering around a dream knowing that its your own mind, or maybe its reality of its own

can anyone get control over i cant i can only observe!

You'll get control of it!

Nick

Stark

I'm a bit worried about circulation loss when trying to do a projection.

If the tips of your fingers start tingling, then feel really heavy, then cold and numb, is that a normal part of the process, or simply loss of circulation? Don't want to end up with nerve damage as part of my efforts

MeatProduct

Stark wrote:

I'm a bit worried about circulation loss when trying to do a projection.

If the tips of your fingers start tingling, then feel really heavy, then cold and numb, is that a normal part of the process, or simply loss of circulation? Don't want to end up with nerve damage as part of my efforts

Stark, I think it's time to head on back to your body then. Does that happen even if you are in a really comfortable position? It might also be that you are deeply relaxed. When I get very relaxed I feel like my arms are not mine and they can sometimes feel all twisted and all sorts of mad stuff. Cold and numb isn't a good sign though

Nick

Elessar

I know a few people whom I trust completely who say they have had OBEs. One guy I used to work with in particular told me that one night he woke up and his face was nearly touching the ceiling. He had heard about OBEs before so he concentrated on turning himself around 180 degrees and saw himself and his wife sleeping on the bed below. Then he woke up. I trust that it happened but its never happened to me so I won't say it's "real".

Anyway a good site for reading up on hundreds of OBEs is www.oberf.org . Check it out.

Oryx

I used to try obe, but was always scared when I felt a shift, and immediately was back to 'myself'. I had also read somewhere that souls could cut your connection and steal your body (I was 17!) and that put me off

Ive done remote viewing, but thats always a completely concious thing, Ive never thought it was out of body. The main reason Im posting is because this thread made me think of the strongest psychic experience I had, where the communication was so strong I described afterward it felt as if I had 'stepped outside myself'. It wasnt a trance, and it took a lot of concentration to stay in that state. I never thought of it as obe before, but this thread makes me wonder.

Dagon

I was doing that Astral travelling course on MysticWeb as well, but I pulled out after they started talking about invoking other astral bodies. I remember in particular, they suggested the traveller use "Master Anubis, I invoke thee", and you can get help from this spirit. However, this can open you up to all sorts of malicious spirits, and apparently also a lot of useless information while you are in the astral realm. I've heard that very little of the information you will learn will be of any use, and you will have to go through heaps of useless exprience to get anywhere interesting. Combine this with the danger in invoking "helpers", and I don't think it's worth risking.

Also, Anubis - if it's the same Anubis from Egtptian legends - was not a very kind person, or a peaceful spirit. Why are MysticWeb asking students to invoke him?

cammy

I'm new to the boards so sorry if catching this thread a bit late in the day.

I've been interested in OBEs in the past and as a teenager became quite intensively obsessed with it. Never managed it properly sadly. A friend of mine at the time was also interested and OBEs seem to come naturally to him.

(But I did learn to enter a meditative state which I've never since lost the ability to do. I find it strange that people say they 'loose the ability' if they go without it for a while. I find it simply takes a bit longer but I can also go back to the same state.)

I did read a lot about OBEs at the time and I found out that there is a small percent of people who can't OBE. Similarly I found that I could hypnotise my friend into a deep trance state but he failed to hypnotise me.

Anyway after a while of intense practice I started to suffer nightmares (some felt they were a little more than dreams) during the time and it cumulated in a one horrific OBE experience (which I won't recount here).

Tbh these days I doubt OBEs as being real. I found that lucid dreaming is infinitely better than any of my OBEs experiences. They are much more grounded, practical, enlightening and even entertaining but that’s just imho.

I think I was literally pushing too hard for something I didn't really need. Not that I regret all the meditation and visualisation practice I did though as that’s help me a lot in later years.

Since then I just listen to my own dreams and I use to regularly lucid dream and more than once I've had natural OBEs during dreaming. (But now I have a 12 month old baby and now I'm just lucky to sleep all the way through till 6am).

Dagon wrote:

Also, Anubis - if it's the same Anubis from Egtptian legends - was not a very kind person, or a peaceful spirit. Why are MysticWeb asking students to invoke him?

I find that very suspicious too. But perhaps they are going after the symbolism of Anubis as the guardian of the ‘other world’. I don't know they don't just ask you to visualise a gateway though?

Dagon

"I find that very suspicious too. But perhaps they are going after the symbolism of Anubis as the guardian of the ‘other world’."

Possible. They say he is very powerful and can help and guide people in the astral realm. But for all we know, MysticWeb could be leading people in a particular direction in the astral realm for their own purposes. I don't know what those purposes are, and I'm quite weary of following this kind of thing, because spiritual games - particularly with the wrong people - is extremely dangerous. They also give this course for free...

I'd prefer to do Deepak Chopra's brand of astral travelling, because his books have been a great help to me in the past.

Zillah

I have a question.

Without setting up some sort of test, how can you know that you're not just have a lucid dream?

cammy

Zillah wrote:

Without setting up some sort of test, how can you know that you're not just have a lucid dream?

Currently I haven't heard of any validation of OBEs. Thats why I doubt they may be real at all and I think Lucid Dreaming is a much safer (and less stressful) technique.

stevenmu

I was under the impression that lucid dreaming and OBEs were two sides of the same coin. With lucid dreaming, the state your mind is in when you're asleep makes it easier to slip out of your body, but because of the fact that you're asleep your subconcious mind affects a lot of what you experience, altough practice and training can help reduce this. With OBEs, the kind when you meditate at least, I'm not sure how they relate to the near death type, it takes a lot more directed effort to slip out of your body but when you do, you're more in control and it's a much clearer experience.

Zillah wrote:

I have a question.

Without setting up some sort of test, how can you know that you're not just have a lucid dream?

Without some kind of test setup in advance, the only thing I can think of is to visit some place that you know nothing about and then try to find out aftwards how accurate your experience of it was. There have been cases of people claiming to have visited parts of our solar system and describing features that were only later discovered by astronomers. I think someone once claimed there were rings around neptune and was ridiculed at the time, but it later turned out that there are. I'll have a look for links later.

cammy

stevenmu wrote:

I was under the impression that lucid dreaming and OBEs were two sides of the same coin.

I have a very different understanding but this is just IMHO. For me lucid dreaming is consciously controlled dreaming.

OBEs are OBEs. You are 'spiritually' seperate from your body.

Though you can OBE from a dream.

While I personally lucid dream regularly and I have failed to manage to OBE distinct from dreaming. Yet I've had one or two incredibly vivid experinces that were more than dreaming but I cannot say they are OBEs. While I doubt the OBE experince, I don't reject it.

stevenmu wrote:

Without some kind of test setup in advance, the only thing I can think of is to visit some place that you know nothing about and then try to find out aftwards how accurate your experience of it was. There have been cases of people claiming to have visited parts of our solar system and describing features that were only later discovered by astronomers. I think someone once claimed there were rings around neptune and was ridiculed at the time, but it later turned out that there are. I'll have a look for links later.

I haven't heard of any sort of validation of OBEs. There has been work on Remote Viewing, but thats not the same, I think. I just finished reading 'Psychology of a Psychic' which exposes many of the flaws of original Remote Viewing experiments but according to Dean Radin's 'Conscious Universe' much work has been done on it since then.

There are so many factors to have to overcome, subjective validation, double blind setup, objectivity... a lot of controls have to be in place. It if was only as simple as seeing if someone can read hidden writing from an OBE state (man I'd be so happy)...

solas

remote viweing could be considered reading hidden writing from an obe state.

<edit:>oh..I get ya now.

stevenmu

cammy wrote:

I have a very different understanding but this is just IMHO. For me lucid dreaming is consciously controlled dreaming.

OBEs are OBEs. You are 'spiritually' seperate from your body.

Though you can OBE from a dream.

While I personally lucid dream regularly and I have failed to manage to OBE distinct from dreaming. Yet I've had one or two incredibly vivid experinces that were more than dreaming but I cannot say they are OBEs. While I doubt the OBE experince, I don't reject it.

I was under the (very possibly mistaken) impression that lucid dreaming, and in fact all dreaming, is a form of astral travelling where the state of your mind allows you to have more influence over what you see and experience. I'm unclear on whether this meant that you are actually creating items in the astral or simply that your mind is decieving you. Similarly OBEs are a form of astral travel but the state of your mind at the time gives a much clearer experience of the astral plane. That's the impression I got anyway, but sometimes I try to find out about too many different things at the same time, that I end up learning very little about any of them

cammy wrote:

I haven't heard of any sort of validation of OBEs. There has been work on Remote Viewing, but thats not the same, I think. I just finished reading 'Psychology of a Psychic' which exposes many of the flaws of original Remote Viewing experiments but according to Dean Radin's 'Conscious Universe' much work has been done on it since then.

There are so many factors to have to overcome, subjective validation, double blind setup, objectivity... a lot of controls have to be in place. It if was only as simple as seeing if someone can read hidden writing from an OBE state (man I'd be so happy)...

I read a few chapters of 'Psychology of a Psychic' but ended up putting it down, I found the authors a bit too dismissive. I thought that they discounted several things because they weren't 100% scientifically verifiable, even though some results were impressive even taking their criticisms into account. I understand that they'd like to find 100% proof, but they seem to immediatly dismiss some things which could have been promising and maybe lead to better protocols. I'll have to look out for 'Conscious Universe' and see what that says.

cammy

stevenmu wrote:

I was under the (very possibly mistaken) impression that lucid dreaming, and in fact all dreaming, is a form of astral travelling

This is my personal opinion and one theory is as good as another until there is some sort of objective understanding of OBEs and Remote Viewing.

stevenmu wrote:

I read a few chapters of 'Psychology of a Psychic' but ended up putting it down, I found the authors a bit too dismissive. I thought that they discounted several things because they weren't 100% scientifically verifiable, even though some results were impressive even taking their criticisms into account. I understand that they'd like to find 100% proof, but they seem to immediatly dismiss some things which could have been promising and maybe lead to better protocols. I'll have to look out for 'Conscious Universe' and see what that says.

I think we're getting slightly off-topic here. There is a multitude of mis-information in 'Psychology of a Psychic'. While I was reading it I was making notes but it got too much of chore. I had planned to do a review of it for my website (as a way of formulating my thinking about the book).

The scientific part of it is correct though (it's just that they focus on the broken experiments). The original RV experiments were seriously flawed.

While I understand the 100% proof thing, you can't say that every single experiment that has a potential for fraud did involve fraud. That kind of level of paranoia is equivalent to some of the mad-cap theories that the authors claim parapsychology wish to uphold.

To get back on topic there is some interesting bits and pieces in 'Psychology of a Psychic', in particular a whole chapter related to the history of the Stargate project.

Nevyn

Personally I dont like or get on with egyptian gods,
but Anubis is not a bad choice here.

Egyptian God Anubis

Egyptian god of the dead, represented as a black jackal or dog, or as a man with the head of a dog or jackal. He was the guide of the dead as they made their way through the darkness of the underworld. As a patron of magic, it was believed he could foresee a persons destiny, in this role he was the announcer of death. God of orphans, travelers, and the lost.

There are a whole lot of so called Dark or Death Gods and Goddesses that are
pretty much misunderstood.

cammy

Thaed wrote:

Egyptian god of the dead, represented as a black jackal or dog, or as a man with the head of a dog or jackal. He was the guide of the dead as they made their way through the darkness of the underworld. As a patron of magic, it was believed he could foresee a persons destiny, in this role he was the announcer of death. God of orphans, travelers, and the lost.

According to wikipedia's entry on Anubis, Anubis is more the god of dying than a god of death. Osiris became the God of death when he became more popular.

I'm particularly fond of Egyptian Gods (not in terms of magick though, just as a mythology) and I always considered Anubis to be the Judger of the Dead like St. Peter, except if you fail you get eaten by a monster rather than go to hell (which is worse, you decide!). I always thought Isis was the Egyptian Goddess of magic. She's a particular favourite of mine too.

Is the process of an OBE a process of 'dying'?

Thaed wrote:

There are a whole lot of so called Dark or Death Gods and Goddesses that are pretty much misunderstood.

In what way? (Genuine question, I'm intrigued)

I understand, that for example, many Gods where painted as dark gods or as belongomg to the land of the dead to demonize the followers (like what the Greeks did to Hectate by describing her as living in the Underworld). Is this what you meant?

Nevyn

pretty much.

Anything that was icky and not nice was demonised.
I am not saying they are not harsh gods and goddesses at times but
death and war were and still part of life.

For me it was the story of lillths that is a good example of this.
http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/rappoport.html
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Projects/Reln91/Power/lilith.htm
http://www.dharma6.com/html/the_myth.html
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lilith.html

Hecate is another one.
She went from the young torch bearer guiding souls in the under world and persphone on her travels, her symbols being torches and door ways and keys, to the patron of midwifes, birth being a door way between worlds and from there she became the Goddess of witches during medevil times as those investigating midwifes would often hear of thier devotion to her and offerings in her name and so she became the Nighthag of the cross roads.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hecate.html
http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/hecatecont3.html

And dont forget our own Lady, The Morrigan.
http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/goddessmorrigan.html
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/morrigan.html
http://www.tarot-decks.com/morrigan.htm
http://druidry.org/obod/deities/morrigan.html

Talliesin

Thaed wrote:

Anything that was icky and not nice was demonised.

We have the flip side to that happening also, where people wishing to reclaim such Gods and Goddesses try to water them down to little more than self-assertive but still "nice", which I really don't think the Gods appreciate. At least those who demonise them leave well alone rather than try to work with them.

I love the Morrigan, the Calliach, and especially Scáthach, but they sure ain't pleasant. But often the less nice people are those that it is most worthwhile working with, which goes for humans and other beings too.

There are also some Gods and Goddesses with dark natures mixed in with other stuff. I'm thinking particularly of Aradia here, protective, compassionate, caring, who can hold you and tell you that it's okay, that the bad stuff hurts but you're strong enough to deal with it and reminds you of the joy she was sent to bring, but who is also poisoner of her people's enemies.

stevenmu

Thaed wrote:

Personally I dont like or get on with egyptian gods,
but Anubis is not a bad choice here.


There are a whole lot of so called Dark or Death Gods and Goddesses that are
pretty much misunderstood.

Reading this just reminded me, I think I read somewhere that Anubis was actually regarded more as a gatekeeper between this world and the esoteric, or the physical plane and the astral. Because crossing over is usually related to death then this is what Anubis is generally associated with.

amazingemmet

just a random thing that some people i know have gotten results with is eat alot of salty food before bed then leave a glass of water beside your bed and focus on wanting to drink the water as you go to sleep, and if your lucky you'll wake up seperate from your body beside the water ready to go travelling

Personally i haven't got this method to work but friends of mine swear by it.

stevenmu

amazingemmet wrote:

just a random thing that some people i know have gotten results with is eat alot of salty food before bed then leave a glass of water beside your bed and focus on wanting to drink the water as you go to sleep, and if your lucky you'll wake up seperate from your body beside the water ready to go travelling

Personally i haven't got this method to work but friends of mine swear by it.

I've heard of various similar things, mainly people say to focus on something in particular when you're awake and then when you see it in your dream you should realise that you're dreaming and then 'wake up' within your dream. Unfortunatly I haven't got it to work fully yet, I either just completly wake up, or something else happens in the dream and I forget all about it :rolleyes:

amazingemmet

Yeah i think thats the reasoning behind it alright. But i think i could be a bit more effective as its something your body is gonna remind you of as oppose to trying to remember it your self in your dream.

cammy

stevenmu wrote:

I've heard of various similar things, mainly people say to focus on something in particular when you're awake and then when you see it in your dream you should realise that you're dreaming and then 'wake up' within your dream. Unfortunatly I haven't got it to work fully yet, I either just completly wake up, or something else happens in the dream and I forget all about it :rolleyes:

Well the one technique that really worked for me was this: during the day when you do something regularly such as checking the time, check to see if your dreaming. You can do this by looking at your hands and seeing if they remain the same or reading a piece of text, looking away for a second and then rereading the text, if it's changed your dreaming. Theres lots of little bits of dream logic you can test for.

Once this becomes a habit, when your dreaming, your mind will check to see if your dreaming at some point and you'll, hopefully, wake up.

stevenmu

That sounds like another technique I found and tried for a while without much luck. Basically it involved being very aware of everything you do during the day, how everything looked, smelled and felt. Your idea seems to be similar but it's really getting to the core of the idea. I'll give it a try for the next few days and see how I get on, thanks.

stevenmu

stevenmu wrote:

I think someone once claimed there were rings around neptune and was ridiculed at the time, but it later turned out that there are. I'll have a look for links later.

Sorry, forgot about this till I saw a discovery channel documentary mentioning it over the weekend. It was actually Ingo Swann who remote viewed Jupiter. Details available here