Etiquette when declaring hands

smurph

I would like to get peoples opinion on this. I wasn't going to post it but I am quite annoyed over it (maybe over reacting slightly but we will see). I was playing in the cash game on Saturday night in Fitzwilliam (€50 Omaha Only Game). The player to my right (player A) was down quite a bit of Money (bout €700 i would estimate). There were three spades on board with the highest being the Qs. Another player (Player made a bet of €120 approximately which put the player (A) to my right all in. Player (B) then announced that he had a Small Flush. The player to my right quickly turned over the Jack High Flush to which the other Player (B) turned over the King High Flush. I know i was not in the game but i thought is was a disgrace and had to say something. I said to player (B) that he shouldn't say comments like that and then throw over the second nut flush. He answered by saying that everyone knows that anything less than the nut flush is a small flush and that he doesn't know where some people learned to play cards. I have decided that better to keep away from the Cash games for a while. What annoyed me aswell is that Player (B) was getting away with throwing in a bet and then doing speech play like "Go on call me, i might be at it ". He made quite a big bet against me in a hand and i threw my cards in with Three Tens, because there was a Straight made on the board. He then showed his cards (he was on a flush draw). I said to him that i had no interest in seeing his cards because i didn't see his bet, to which he just laughed. As someone once said "The only thing worse that a bad loser, is a bad Winner". Any comments?

TacT

poor etiquette there alright, not much you can do about it really?

mewso

I think it's bad form but I witnessed what I consider worse on friday night in the €50 tourney. A regular at my table called an all-in bet from another player and with 2 players to act after him (me and another chap) said "trips" as if he was heads up with the all-in player and then "sorry" looking at us. A total act and calculated in my view to push anyone who doesn't know him out of the pot. The next time I see that I will call Luke.

DapperGent

In fairness a King high flush is a small flush in Omaha.

careca

I would consider that bad etiquette alright. When all the money is in there is absolutely no reason to declare 'small flush'. If you have the nut flush then say it , otherwise call King high flush or whatever it is.

When someone at the table is using lots of speech play the main thing is not to let it get to you. Thats his/her objective in the first place, to put you on tilt. The best way to get them back is to trap them in a big pot and pocket their cash. Of course a lot of this is coming from televised poker in the states where players run around the room giving high fives when they win a pot. I agree with Muso also, let Luke sort it out, no better man.

BigDragon

There have been some right tossers coming into the Fitz lately with their "I'm a internet winner" attitude. I have a problem with repeated offenders, everyone makes mistakes or says something they shouldn't.

It'll soon dawn on them that they need to learn some respect for the people that they play.

Rubbing a newbie's fold in their face with a bluff hand is going to come back and haunt them. I have about four on my hitlist at the moment. I will let the cards do the damage.

ionapaul

Considering your recent form, I hope I'm not on that hitlist! Dangerous place to be

Sometimes you really have to try hard not to let some people get to you. There are one or two 'regulars' I find it hard to play with, as they come across as rude and obnoxious at times. But the worst (IMHO) are the god-awful liars and boasters among the younger crowd. One Friday night an English chap, never seen before or since,
*bashfully* admitted 'oh yeah, I'm a semi-pro', not realising that he was asked if he played professionally as a joke after many many errors. Another lad announced on a Wednesday night - 'this is my third time in the club on a Wednesday night, I won the other two times....that's not bad, is it?' Tosser amassed a huge stack by calling everything and getting lucky, being extremely rude and cocky the entire time, dissecting each and every hand during and after play. I have to admit I didn't keep a cool head that night and spent the next hour waiting and waiting to trap the bastard.

lolkelly

I think its all about the actual situation of player A. Now lets say hes 1000 up and the same thing happens then you probably wouldnt care that much. but rubbing it in when the guy is already 700 in the hole is bad form.

Hyzepher

That €50 Omaha only game on Saturday was full of regulars - afair - so the call of small flush wouldn't be out of place.

Speech play is not allowed in the Fitz until there are only 2 players left. if it is happening then ask for a ruling.

Hyzepher

Juan Pablo

Hyzepher wrote:

Speech play is not allowed in the Fitz until there are only 2 players left. if it is happening then ask for a ruling.

Speech play is not permitted PERIOD with certain dealers (well, one dealer in particular), they also take exception to you calling hands and threaten to remove you from the game. A bit OTT but certainly prevents situations such as our example outlined above.

As for the "hit list", I can see a spate of Heifer's heads being left in offenders beds as a warning from Don Dragioni

smurph

lolkelly wrote:

I think its all about the actual situation of player A. Now lets say hes 1000 up and the same thing happens then you probably wouldnt care that much. but rubbing it in when the guy is already 700 in the hole is bad form.

Actually you are probably right there. I still do think that it was extremely rude, but as other people say maybe thats the point, to put people off the playing of the cards, and get them annoyed, while taking their money. Anyway giving it a miss for a while, maybe for a cooling down period. Get the enthuasism back and go in and smoke the bastards

NickyOD

smurph wrote:

"Go on call me, i might be at it ". He made quite a big bet against me in a hand and i threw my cards in with Three Tens, because there was a Straight made on the board. He then showed his cards (he was on a flush draw).

This is usually although not always a bluff. You don't normally say things like that and use bullying tactics if you actually want a call. It's a difficult call with a str8 on the board. A mid set is a week omaha hand but I think over time the odds are in your favour to call when a player acts like this, because like I said if he wanted a call why would he act like a bully? It's not good way to get chips if you're holding the nuts now is it?

As for declaring your hand, the fact that its a game with a lot of regulars is really besides the point. You do not announce your hand unless its a heads up situation with someone all in or you've been put all in by your oponent and even then some casinos may have a seperate ruling to abolish it all together.

Marq

"Slowrolling" is the ancient Chinese art of showing down two cards from your hand in omaha, waiting until your opponent has shown his or her hand, and is convinced that they have won the pot, and then throwing over your other two cards, which, oops, just happen to make the nuts. It's not disallowed at the poker table, but as far as i'm concerned it is extremely poor etiquette. It gives the other player the needle and it pisses most people at a cash game table off.

In Smurph's case, where a player declares a small flush and atually has the second nut flush, it's a similar situation, although the person in question may not have meant any harm by it as most people who play omaha do consider anything less than the nut flush to be small. But either way, there's no rule against it, so there's really not much that one can do.

By the way, very unlucky in that pot where you had the nut straight on the turn Collette.

smurph

Marq wrote:

"Slowrolling" is the ancient Chinese art of showing down two cards from your hand in omaha, waiting until your opponent has shown his or her hand, and is convinced that they have won the pot, and then throwing over your other two cards, which, oops, just happen to make the nuts. It's not disallowed at the poker table, but as far as i'm concerned it is extremely poor etiquette. It gives the other player the needle and it pisses most people at a cash game table off.

In Smurph's case, where a player declares a small flush and atually has the second nut flush, it's a similar situation, although the person in question may not have meant any harm by it as most people who play omaha do consider anything less than the nut flush to be small. But either way, there's no rule against it, so there's really not much that one can do.

By the way, very unlucky in that pot where you had the nut straight on the turn Collette.

Swings and Roundabouts. Unfortunately i keep getting outdrawn on the last card. Having the Nuts on 4th Street in Omaha is the scariest place to be. All you can do is hope. Some weeks you are the person waiting for the Flush or praying for the board to pair. Have to take the lows as well as the highs. going off to get an excorcism preformed on me to get rid of the hex i have with cards at the moment. I know Saturdays wont be the same without me but im sure you guys will manage. Dont forget to keep posting on this site. Its great for catching up on what happened in the Fitz. Any word on Huzane, has he been in lately? I miss his "Ace open, King Open" stories. No bad beat stories on this site have a patch on his rants. They are legendary. Im giving it a break for the rest of April. I think i'll take up walking, or drinking more beer mmm, See you in May

Doc Farrell

Hi Colette,

I'll be taking a break from some of the games too. You lose your edge and enthusiasm eventually. Save it up for the end of the month.

On the question of etiquette I asked for a ruling in a tourney on Friday after a player showed me his cards before calling my all-in. I was way ahead and won the hand but it is very important that there be no suggestion of bad play being acceptable, especially as the game heads towards the money.


The young player was suffering from some kind of zealous over confidence rather than was acting in any kind of malicious way but if I had have lost the hand without asking for a ruling it would have set a very poor precedent for similar behaviour in the future.

Etiquette and manners are becoming more important to the game as tournament directors look for sponsorship and in professional circles players with bad manners are becoming more and more alienated.

I personally hate to see new or inexperienced players being spoken to poorly and go nuts if I catch it. If a new player or two decides that it isnt any fun and stops playing then the whole tournament food chain breaks down. This is a very serious problem and any reader who experiences language or attititude that he wouldnt accept from someone on the street should call the tournament director over immediately and demand action. Never think that you're holding up the game, you are in fact saving the entire game and will have my complete support if I'm there.

Anyhoo, smurphee, see you soon, Des

BrendanB

Without knowing who it was, I know some people who simply mean by small flush that they don't have the nuts, but if it was deliberately misleading then its unpleasant.

I think there are two broader problems here. The first is what counts as 'part of the game'. I personally don't believe really obnoxious or windup behaviour, trying to put someone on tilt at a table is legitimate play. That's different from speechplay, which I've no problem with as long as it within certain bounds. You should be mannerly and respectful at all times, if not, after a warning, you should be turfed off, no matter who you are.

The second is the new, born obnoxious idiots that have started. Poker has been a victim of it's own success to an extent, in that where card clubs used to be a progression from home/pub games with a 'gentlemans code' of gambling, the recent growth has been internet fuelled with people with no bloody manners.

That said, many of the punters don't exactly give the best example. While Hussein may be grand if you've been playing (or dealing beside) him for ages, if you're new then he just presents a standard of behaviour that says anything goes. There are numerous others in the same mould, and to be honest, a (thankfully very small) minority of people who post on this board who don't exactly set a shining example for newcomers.

dirkey_wynne

Saw an interesting one the other day. Tournie, I was waiting for brother to be eliminated. Anyway, the dealer on this table, who shall remain nameless, but isn't actually employed by The Fitz, however upon occasion I have seen him deal there to help out. Anyway, this particular nameless dealer, would be a very regular player in there with many friends/cronies. Anyway, a new player moved from one table came to table i was watching, with nameless dealer. New player also happened to be cronie of said dealer. As he sits down, dealer mentions of a particular other player on the table - to his cronie - "this guy here has played about two hands since I sat down." Now, I dunno what ye think of this, but I thought it was a bit ridiculous. Dealer should not be letting a player know of another players style, imho. That's the beauty/horror of being moved table - those you don't know you must figure out. What do ye think?

DeVore

I blame the parents.


I had to sit through about 3 minutes of Player X's mockery last week before he folded. I felt he did it on purpose because there was little I could say in reaction. I bet my entire tank after reraising preflop with AK on a J8x board. Player X starts all this personal bull**** about me and then reluctantly folds, player behind him calls me with QT (!) and misses so my AK-high semi bluff came off! I felt sorry for the guy who called me (until I found out he's loaded) but I loved the face on Monsieur X.

I'm with Des on this one, dont stand for it, dont witness it, speak up or get Luke.

DeV.

Doc Farrell

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Saw an interesting one the other day. Tournie, I was waiting for brother to be eliminated. Anyway, the dealer on this table, who shall remain nameless, but isn't actually employed by The Fitz, however upon occasion I have seen him deal there to help out. Anyway, this particular nameless dealer, would be a very regular player in there with many friends/cronies. Anyway, a new player moved from one table came to table i was watching, with nameless dealer. New player also happened to be cronie of said dealer. As he sits down, dealer mentions of a particular other player on the table - to his cronie - "this guy here has played about two hands since I sat down." Now, I dunno what ye think of this, but I thought it was a bit ridiculous. Dealer should not be letting a player know of another players style, imho. That's the beauty/horror of being moved table - those you don't know you must figure out. What do ye think?

hey man, i hope that wasnt me! But I only deal at the freerolls when I'm playing too. If the dealer was also playing and it was said in jest then it's not too bad. If however he wasnt playing too then even if he's just kidding around he would be out of order.
Anyhoo, if it was me sorry, I'm guilty of a lot of things. And I do know a lot of cronies.

And Tom, I wouldn't take 3 seconds of personal insults, never mind 3 minutes. That kind of behaviour can, and if I'm there, will have the guilty party taken out of the tourney for twenty minutes at the very least and possibly further penalised.

In order to attract new blood, sorry, I mean new players, the idea that bullying is allowed by anybody (including me or you Tom, with your knob jockey insults!) must be stamped out in public.

Cheers, d.

DeVore

knob jockey!

I sometimes jokingly insult Luke Brady but in my defence he is a terrible player and all and sundry need to be informed of that. Other then that I wouldnt think to insult anyone at a table (I might talk them into calling me when I'm holding aces though )

With Player X it was a cash game so it meant even more! I've had words with him before so I wasnt going to give him the satisfaction of responding (not to mention any tells as I had 200+ notes in on the hand!). I took some pleasure in taking down the pot though.

The new guys need to also realise that some respect is owed to the people who have built what we now enjoy. I go out of my way to be respectful to the older players too... (Marq and Oscar got called "brats" the other night by Ettie, lol).

DeV.

Doc Farrell

And she was dead right! they are brats!

Delighted to see her win 1750 two Sundays ago.

Good point about showing respect to the older players.

Now, I'm going in to play in the Tuesday game and kick ur ass Devore!

dirkey_wynne

No, Doc, it certainly wasn't you. It wasn't anyone who posts on here. I thought it was out of order alright, but wasn't at the table, just watching, so didn't say anything. Had I been the player, I certainly would have.

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote:

I sometimes jokingly insult Luke Brady but in my defence he is a terrible player and all and sundry need to be informed of that. DeV.

Poker is a game of incomplete information, you are doing a huge favour to those players by letting them know how bad a player I am. You truely are an ambassador for the game Tom.

DeVore

I try Luke, I try...

DeV.