The Best Pope ever

Kaboogie

I reckon that Pope John Paul II has been the best and most travelled Pope ever. He made a historic visit to Ireland as well. What do you think?

Washout

He has done his service well... I was named after the pope....and no i wasnt born during his visit.

but have you gone through the history and compared this pope with all past popes to back up your statement that he is the best ever?

joejoem

I thought about this for a long time last night because the conflict of feelings I have on the matter confuses me. Ive come to the conclusion that I will feel sad when he dies but I dont agree with the position of the pope, nor the fact that he is an 'almighty power' on earth, or that he is closer to god. I dont think there should be a pope.

Kaboogie

He is the best Pope we ever had.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/pope/

Pope Joan, the only female Pope, did not last very long.
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/popeJoan.html

mr_angry

I agree with Joejoem - I think he was a good man who worked hard for many good causes. There are some issues I disagreed with him on, but he's only one man and he can't be expected to change everything, nor do I claim to be more correct in my opinions than he was. I still don't agree with any of that papal infallability or "God's representitive" stuff though. I firmly believe he's as weak and uninformed as the rest of us, but in general, did the best he could with what he had.

omnicorp

He was a great Pope except for his cover-ups of the child sex abuse commited by his priests. He probably knew about it but disn't act upon it

Yoda

Considering just one issue with regard to this Pope's tenure, it is hard to see him as a force for tolerance and understanding. Wikipedia says:

The Pope was also a leading critic of same-sex marriage. In his last book, "Memory and Identity", John Paul II described same-sex marriage as part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously menacing society. In a chapter dealing with the role of lawmakers, the pope refered to the "pressures" on the European Parliament to permit same-sex marriage. Reuters quotes the pope as writing, "It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man."

This Pope has done a great deal of harm, to people who are no threat to anyone. Hitler rounded up homosexuals (and others) and killed them. This Pope taught that they are evil, and that their desire to be treated as human beings equal to other human beings is some sort of threat to society.

This Pope taught hatred.

kenmc

Kaboogie wrote:

I reckon that Pope John Paul II has been the <snip> most travelled Pope ever.

Well of course he was the most travelled pope ever. and the pope before him (JP1??) was the most travelled pope ever. and so on. Travel gets easier through the years! The next pope will also be the most travelled pope ever!

<Waits for ban> So he's not dying after all....

The pope had become very ill and was taken to many doctors, all of whom could not figure out how to cure him. Finally he was brought to an old physician, who stated that he could figure it out. After about an hour’s examination he came out and told the cardinals that he knew what was wrong. He said that the bad news was that it was a rare disorder of the testicles. He said that the good news was that all the pope had to do to be cured was to have sex.

Well, this was not good news to the cardinals, who argued about it at length. Finally they went to the pope with the doctor and explained the situation.After some thought, the pope stated, “I agree, but under four conditions.”

The cardinals were amazed and there arose quite an uproar. Over all ofthe noise there arose a single voice that asked, “And what are the four conditions?” The room stilled. There was a long pause…

The pope replied, “First the girl must be blind, so that she cannot see with whom she is having sex. Second, she must be deaf, so that she cannot hear with whom she is having sex. Third, she must be dumb so that if somehow she figures out with whom she is having sex, she can tell no one.”

After another long pause a voice arose and asked, “And the fourth condition?”

“Big tits.”

larryone

I dont think he was the best pope ever. I thinkn John the 23rd was a better pope.

Rev Hellfire

Now Yoda, please tell me that you are not by association comparing the pope to hitler.

While many may not agree with the stances he may have taken, I believe a person can only act as their conscience instructs them, and on the whole for the majority of people he will be seen as a positive force on the whole.

Yoda

I am not comparing the two men per se. Hitler persecuted a number of minorities because he was a sick and twisted psychopath.

Wojtyla was not a sick and twisted psychopath. But his persecution of sexual minorities has been no less than detestable. Ignore any comparison, and delete the reference to Hitler entirely:

This Pope has done a great deal of harm, to people who are no threat to anyone. This Pope taught that homosexuals who want to marry are a force for evil, and that their desire to be treated as human beings equal to other human beings is some sort of threat to society.

This Pope taught hatred.

This cannot be seen as in any way a positive force on the whole.

Excelsior

You are being subtley dishonest there Yoda. Karol believed that homosexual marriage was evil. He never believed nor wrote that homosexuals were evil.

There is an infinity distance in that distinction.

Familiarise yourself with his drama, philosophy and theology and you will see that in his own phrase, "The Culture of Life"- the respect for all humans regardless of their position is the over-arching theme.

Disagree with his stance on homosexual marriage and by all means choose to attack it as intolerant. But in no way can you justifiably claim that he wanted to ever attack homosexuals.

Yoda

I've no reason to be dishonest.

Reuters quotes the pope as writing, "It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this [i.e. "pressures" on the European Parliament to permit same-sex marriage] is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man."

This is in no way tolerant or inclusive. And it is, in my view, an attack on homosexuals. If not... then what?

"Homosexual marriage is evil."
"Interracial marriage is evil."

Are either of these acceptable in a modern society? I do not believe so. Yet the Pope can say that homosexuals who want to marry are part of an evil plot to "pit human rights against the family and against man".

I stand by my opinion: This Pope taught hatred. Certainly on this point.

mr_angry

Yoda wrote:

"Interracial marriage is evil."

Where are you getting that quote from Yoda? And I think its pretty clear that the Pope considers homosexuality fundamentally morally wrong, but I think his statements are an attempt to influence the creation of homosexual marriage in law, rather than him suggesting putting homosexuals in concentration camps - which was kind of implied in your original post.

And why shouldn't the Pope express his opionion on homosexual marriage if he believes its morally wrong? Personally, I'm a liberal who has no problem with same-sex marriage, but by the same token, I have no problem with the Pope expressing an alternative opinion. Free speech is a basic human right too.

Rev Hellfire

While the pope certainly was against homosexuality I was unaware of his opposition to interracial marriages. I'm sure some of the practising catholics can clarify this point or maybe you can provide linkage to an actual quote.

Yoda

I'm sorry; I tried to edit for clarity but (apparently) it was not clear. No, those are not quotations from the pope. They are example sentences exemplifying two kinds of discrimination. One of those is considered by many to be in appallingly bad taste. The other is considered by many to be perfectly fine. The pope did not make those two statements.

But the statement he is credited (by Reuters) with making is that that homosexuals who want to marry are part of an evil plot to "pit human rights against the family and against man".

That is an example of this Pope's persecution of homosexuals.

And you read too much into my reference to Hitler. It wasn't about Hitler per se; it was about a group which he persecuted. I was pointing out that, in my view, this Pope has also persecuted that group. Not in the same way. But it is persecution nonetheless.

I said nothing whatsoever about free speech or preventing the Pope having or expressing his opinion. I say that his opinion in this matter is despicable and indefensible. I think this Pope, with his particular views about sex and contraception, has done a lot of harm.

Watching TV yesterday and today has been a paeon about people everywhere are praying for this charming old man. It's nauseating. He was not a saint, or even saintly. He has done a lot of harm to a lot of people.

Perhaps we will be favoured with a compassionate Pope next. One would like to hope so.

Dinner

I would agree that he was a good Pope regardless of his apparent "teaching hatred". He built bridges with many countries and faiths around the world, especially, with the Jewish and Eastern Orthodox faiths.

Yoda

Well, he's gone now. As a Buddhist, I wish Karol Józef Wojtyla a good rebirth. Om mani padme hum.

rsynnott

Well, he wasn't the worst, but he's a long, long way from being the best... Promotion of hatred against LGBT people, the whole misinformation about condoms in Africa thing... Some of his canonisations were a little dubious... No, room for improvement.

Kaboogie

Millions of people can't be wrong but a few can be.

rsynnott

Kaboogie wrote:

Millions of people can't be wrong but a few can be.

Don't be silly. Millions of people are very often wrong.

Ratchet

rsynnott wrote:

Well, he wasn't the worst, but he's a long, long way from being the best... Promotion of hatred against LGBT people, the whole misinformation about condoms in Africa thing... Some of his canonisations were a little dubious... No, room for improvement.

yeah, it's like you remember all of the popes. Nobody is perfect.

there is nothing stopping you from trying to make a difference

FatherTed

Kaboogie wrote:

Millions of people can't be wrong but a few can be.

Ah, don't worry. A billion Catholics in the world are wrong. But Yoda is right :P

Yoda's interpretation is that the Pope preached hatred by saying gay marriage is evil. I could also say Yoda is preaching hatred by saying the Pope preached hatred and comparing him to hitler.

secret_squirrel

How can you have a better Pope than Pope Joan? She hoodwinked the entire Catholic Church for 2 years. She kicked ass!*


*If she ever existed