Newbies Gear

Number6

Can someone recomend a good rifle and gear for a newbie to target shooting. I mainly want to use an Air-rifle but nothing TOO serious compeditive wise. (I'm too attached to my shotgun atm to know try out anything else )
Thanks

dbar

I would suggest to get an outline of a budget first. I bought an Air rifle for target shooting at home and specked it accordingly, but it cost 600 plus 250 for the compressed air tank plus 150 for the sights. It is an air arms S400 plus moderator. The only thing inaccurate about the rifle is the man behind it.
If you can afford it, I would go for a pre-charged. However you can see the outlay involved. You could probably pick them up s/hand. I got a lower powered one as it will be used out the back.
A spring powered is probably fine to start, but if you are going to do a lot of shooting you will outgrow it quickly (as will your arm!).
If you need any more info I can reply to the post.
All the best,
Dave

Number6

How do you charge the compressed air tank?

I have a budget of between 800e - 1000e to spend on the rifle, including sights and other nessisities(sp?)

Thanks,
Nick

Sparks

I wouldn't dismiss the pneumatic air rifles so fast dbar, remember a 600 series feinwerkbau was pretty much the top of the line for many years for target shooting! And there's a difference between the spring-powered air rifles and the pneumatics, the spring powered (like the feinwerkbau 300s) have a piston on a spring that compresses the air behind the pellet when you pull the trigger, the pneumatics compress it beforehand and the trigger releases the air through a valve-like mechanism. The spring-powered ones tend to vibrate a lot on firing because pulling the trigger causes the piston to jump forward; the pneumatics don't.

A decent second-hand 600 (or 601/602/603) would be one of the best buys if it's within your budget because it'll be all the rifle you'll need for at least two years if you're training competitively, and perhaps a decade if you're just plinking. In fact the only reason you'd need to change (save for a mechanical breakdown) would be to get a precompressed air rifle, which are more convienent (they're not more accurate, you understand, it's just that if you're firing 60 shots in competition and you don't have to crank the charging handle on every shot, you get less tired and so you are more accurate over the course of the match - the rifle mechanism is virtually identical).

Hopefully with the arrival of the latest generation of fancy air rifles, we'll see more second-hand rifles showing up in Ireland but remember that the pony club tetrathlon people snap them up too. Perhaps looking at the UK market would be a good idea.

There was a thread on this sort of thing a while ago, here.

(you compress the air tank by taking it to a divers shop btw, it generally only costs a few euros if anything, but you do need to have it visually inspected once a year and hydroscopically - ie, filled with water to check for leaks - once every five years. Since it's the most dangerous thing an air rifle shooter has in his or her equipment, it's a good idea to comply with that!)

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

(you compress the air tank by taking it to a divers shop btw, it generally only costs a few euros if anything, but you do need to have it visually inspected once a year and hydroscopically - ie, filled with water to check for leaks - once every five years. Since it's the most dangerous thing an air rifle shooter has in his or her equipment, it's a good idea to comply with that!)

What pressures do the pneumatics run at anyway?
Would a regular workshop compressor making 120-150psi be sufficient for re-charging one???

I've got the compressor, so this might have a bearing on my interest in one of these 'wind' powered guns

I also have a variety of very highly compressed inert gasses available, but I doubt these'd be suitable (would they???).

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Sparks

I'm not sure about the pneumatics Rovi, it wouldn't be enormous because they're hand-cranked though.
But from how you asked, I'm guessing you meant pre-compressed rifles like the P70 not the pneumatics like the 600 series. Their maximum pressure is either 200 bar or 300 bar (the 300 bar are the newer rifles like the Walther LG300s, rifles like the P70 or Anschutz 2002CA are 200 bar). But 150 psi would charge the rifle enough for maybe fifty to a hundred shots or so. I don't know if the inert gases would be suitable, but I'd suspect they'd be rather expensive if they were. And I know that the CO2 airguns (many air pistols are CO2 rather than compressed air) need an adapter to used compressed air, so I'd guess you couldn't just fill the tank with compressed nitrogen or whatever.

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

I'm not sure about the pneumatics Rovi, it wouldn't be enormous because they're hand-cranked though.
But from how you asked, I'm guessing you meant pre-compressed rifles

Oh yeah, I knew that, honest

Sparks wrote:

Their maximum pressure is either 200 bar or 300 bar (the 300 bar are the newer rifles like the Walther LG300s, rifles like the P70 or Anschutz 2002CA are 200 bar).

:eek: :eek: :eek:
That's mad pressure!
200-300bar = 2900-4351psi!!!!
I'd reckon my puny 150psi workshop pressure wouldn't even register on the scale

Sparks wrote:

And I know that the CO2 airguns (many air pistols are CO2 rather than compressed air) need an adapter to used compressed air, so I'd guess you couldn't just fill the tank with compressed nitrogen or whatever.

CO2 at 230bar is easily got, though I don't actually have any in the workshop at the moment.
Plenty of Argon mixes and Nitrogen though


This may bear further investigation


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Sparks

Rovi wrote:

:eek: :eek: :eek:
That's mad pressure!
200-300bar = 2900-4351psi!!!!

Yup, it's pretty high. Which is why the air tank is the most dangerous thing on a PCA air rifle! And why the scuba tank you fill the rifle's tank off of is the most dangerous thing in the air rifle range and why you get it insepected regularly - if one of those things lets go and pops, the shrapnel will merrily go through several walls and floors before stopping. Thankfully, since these things are worn on people's backs, they've put a lot of work into safety and the liklihood of them popping are somewhat more remote than you getting hit by a meteorite

I'd reckon my puny 150psi workshop pressure wouldn't even register on the scale

Ah, 150 psi. Er, no, maybe not!

CO2 at 230bar is easily got, though I don't actually have any in the workshop at the moment.

If it's easily got you might want to try getting a CO2 airgun to start with - the first compressed-gas air pistols were all CO2 and there are still a lot knocking about and some still being made. The reason they started using compressed air was that variations in temperature cause variations in pressure and thus impact point, and while that will happen with air as well as CO2, it's more marked with CO2. But this is the difference between scoring a 580 and scoring a 570 we're talking about here and in environmental conditions far more variable than we get in Ireland! If you're just starting, a CO2 airgun is going to hold the target far better than you will!

Plenty of Argon mixes and Nitrogen though
This may bear further investigation

I'd recommend sending an email to the manufacturers rather than trying yourself, just in case you damage your airgun!

Rovi

I was only joking about the Argon and Nitrogen, honest

I'd only experiment with straight Oxygen, Acetylene, or Nitrous Oxide (or perhaps a nice blend)







NOTICE FOR THE HUMOUR IMPAIRED: I'M NOT SERIOUS ABOUT THIS!!!


Anyhoo.............. industrial bottles of CO2 are easy, and I'm pretty sure I can get compressed air the same way.
I take it there's some sort of fancy valve/connector for connecting up the small bottle for the gun?
I doubt a bit of rubber air line and a tyre inflater would do it.

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Sparks

An airgun with pure O2....
Well, the recoil would be interesting, given the afterburner effect

The compressed air's easy enough you just get a scuba diver's bottle. And yeah, there's a special connector that connects the two. There are valves on the diver's bottle and in the air tank on the rifle, and you just connect the two through the connector, open the valve on the diver's bottle slowly, let the pressure equalise (there's a pressure gauge on the end of most of the air tanks in air rifles), close the scuba tank valve, release the pressure in the connector (there's a small valve for that on it) and unscrew everything. Takes about a minute or two in total.

Sparks

Something else on the compressed air that Liam Crawford (the NTSA .22 coordinator) reminded me of today - the compressed air we use in air rifles is the same quality as used by divers - ie, it's been dried and filtered as it's compressed. Normal tool compressors might not do that Rovi, so you might end up getting water vapour and oil all over the inside of your air rifle if you used a souped-up model of that compressor of yours.

You can get compressors that are suitable - there are one or two marketed as air rifle compressors that you just plug into the wall, for example, and any diving compressor is obviously suitable since that's what we charge the scuba tanks with. Mind you, compressors fall squarely in the department of "would be an unnecessary nice thing" because any diving shop has one and many won't even charge you for the filling of the tank, they make their money off servicing tanks and selling scuba gear. Charging a tank once every six months or so means that your compressor would never pay for itself in normal use.

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

Something else on the compressed air that Liam Crawford (the NTSA .22 coordinator) reminded me of today - the compressed air we use in air rifles is the same quality as used by divers - ie, it's been dried and filtered as it's compressed. Normal tool compressors might not do that Rovi, so you might end up getting water vapour and oil all over the inside of your air rifle if you used a souped-up model of that compressor of yours.

Commercial workshop compressors usually have filters and oil traps on them, as you need clean dry air for paint spraying. I know mine does.
Using a pressure fed mask, I even breath the air that's been through my compressor, and I haven't suffered any ill effects
Anyway, no conventional workshop compressor would generate the sort of pressures we're talking about here.

I've spoken to my gasses supplier and he's gone off to investigate the cleanliness of their compressed air, but he gave me these prices-
Full size bottle (like you'd see on a full size oxy/acetylene set) (6.34 cubic metres)- €104+VAT annual rental, €23+VAT per fill.
Half size bottle (3.50 cubic metres)- €104+VAT annual rental, €14+VAT per fill.
How do these prices compare with the scuba option?
I know you said the air fills were usually free, but how much is the initial cost of the bottle and the annual inspection fee?

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Sparks

Well, DURC's scuba tank is smaller than that Rovi, it cost us €100 or so when we bought it (it's not rented), and the annual inspections are about €20-30 last time I looked but that was a while ago (DURC look after the tank as they have PCA rifles as well, I kicked in some money towards buying it which is why I know the prices). DURC are two or three doors over from the Trinity scuba club so they get the tank filled there for free (since it only has to be done two or three times a year, even with the throughput DURC sees, it's not that onerous a thing to ask of the scuba club ). The five-year inspection should be a bit more expensive, but I don't know the prices I'm afraid. So basicly it sounds like a better deal than the one your supplier is giving since he's only renting you the bottle.

(BTW, I think Liam was talking about the compressors you'd use for airtools rather than the ones you'd use for spraying).

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

Well, DURC's scuba tank is smaller than that Rovi, it cost us €100 or so when we bought it (it's not rented), and the annual inspections are about €20-30 last time I looked but that was a while ago (DURC look after the tank as they have PCA rifles as well, I kicked in some money towards buying it which is why I know the prices). DURC are two or three doors over from the Trinity scuba club so they get the tank filled there for free (since it only has to be done two or three times a year, even with the throughput DURC sees, it's not that onerous a thing to ask of the scuba club ). The five-year inspection should be a bit more expensive, but I don't know the prices I'm afraid. So basicly it sounds like a better deal than the one your supplier is giving since he's only renting you the bottle.

Yep, the scuba method looks like better value alright..
Anyone know of a dive shop in Laois?

Sparks wrote:

(BTW, I think Liam was talking about the compressors you'd use for airtools rather than the ones you'd use for spraying).

Erm.......... in a commercial workshop, they're one and the same.
Here's the sort of thing I'm talking about-

They're normally set up to put out 120-150psi and are regulated down to 90psi for air tools (ratchets, impact guns, air hammers, etc), and even lower (down to 25-30psi) for spray guns. Things like blow guns and tyre inflators generally use full pressure.
Compared to airguns these tools use compressed air at low pressure, but at high volumes.

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demonloop

Fot second hand equipment get on www.ebay.co.uk and to a search for target rifle