Delay on River = You getting shafted...

Iago

ok, something I noticed yesterday ( and yes I was looking for a pattern) if your opponent can still beat you with the river to come and there is a delay ( a jump in the software almost) then you will invariably lose.

It's almost like the software is about to deal a card and then reconsiders and deals a different one instead..I know I'm not the only one to notice this so stop the sniggering at the back..

27 yes 27 times yesterday I ended up with my chips in the middle and dominating my opponent only for them to hit the only card that could save them. Ak beaten by KQ, KQ beaten by QJ, and so on an so forth, AA outdrawn by KK, 77 hitting a 7 on the flop and losing to quad 's on the river, I $hit you not.

In the $1500 guaranteed, I raise to 400 when the blinds are 50-100 and a players goes all-in for 2.5K, I call with my AhKh he turns over 3s4s and hits his flush on the turn... I went out about 20 hands later when TT was called by Q9 who hit two pair with a Q on the river..


It all culiminated in my last hand of the night $10 STT 4 players left all with stacks of around 4K or so, blinds at 150/300 it's raised in front of me, I go all-in with AQs and I'm called by K9o

Flop comes A Q 7
Turn 10
River J

and I'm out, good night and good luck....

the fact that I'm imagining this jump or that it has nothing to do with it is completely irrelevant

[size=-12]shouldn't complain too much, I am up over 400 for the weekend, but i'm sick of being outdrawn[/size]

karlh

presuming it is fixed, it wouldnt really need such a powerful calculation on the river as to cause a lag in the software to give your money to someone else

OhPinchy

have to say I agree - I've only ever played on Betfair, but I'm convinced that whenever a player gets a miracle card on the river it is always preceeded by a noticeable pause which does not occur when dealing the turn. These miracle cards go both for and against me and I'm also talking about the many hands I sit out so I don't think I'm biased.

I have actually commented on it to other players through the chat screen and they notice it too - though none read anything into it - "its to add to the suspense" as one player suggested. A cynic might suggest its running some business rules over your betting history to decide which player to give the card to to keep them sweet for long term profits .

BTW - how does Betfair hold up against other sites (it stalls on me regularly though my broadband connection is fine and I miss out on many hands which, including AA the other day, but when I mailed them they tell me noone else has complained so no refund)? I'd be interested in hearing recommendations but have only played on betfair so far as I do alright there and mainly because its easiest for me to track how much I have lodged versus how much I have left.

NickyOD

OhPinchy wrote:

have to say I agree - I've only ever played on Betfair, but I'm convinced that whenever a player gets a miracle card on the river it is always preceeded by a noticeable pause which does not occur when dealing the turn. These miracle cards go both for and against me and I'm also talking about the many hands I sit out so I don't think I'm biased.

I have actually commented on it to other players through the chat screen and they notice it too - though none read anything into it - "its to add to the suspense" as one player suggested. A cynic might suggest its running some business rules over your betting history to decide which player to give the card to to keep them sweet for long term profits .

BTW - how does Betfair hold up against other sites (it stalls on me regularly though my broadband connection is fine and I miss out on many hands which, including AA the other day, but when I mailed them they tell me noone else has complained so no refund)? I'd be interested in hearing recommendations but have only played on betfair so far as I do alright there and mainly because its easiest for me to track how much I have lodged versus how much I have left.

I get the same lag on my diall up connection on Part Poker. It donesn't mean anything. Do Betfair have hand histories? The only way to analyse this conlusively is to go over ALL of your hands and see if your hands are not holding up to their normal averages over a long period of time. What limit are you playing at?

Rodge

Last night it seemed to be the other way round for me, I went in shortstacked with KQ against AK and caught the Q in the river after a nice pause.

I went in with 88 on a flop of 4 6 6 only to find I had been raised preflop by A 6, turn blank, river after a nice pause = 8

I love the pause.

karlh

most sites have a comparison of their hands against the expected average results and you'll find they are spot on. why would any site risk a penny of the huge money they are making by trying to fix hands?

i'm sure Mr. Party & Co. (why it was named after him of course!) are happy enough with a couple of hundred mln a year.

i've played some silly amount of raked hands online, seen 2 royal flushes, a lot of straight flushes and big bad beats. ive seen me and another guy hold aces in the same hand while another held kings and won when we were all in 3 way.

you got unlucky and the pausing is either coincidental or they are actually being a tad sadistic and pausing for suspense.....i like the latter

Culchie

Could the 'Pitboss' in Paddy Power comment on this?

Can they absoulutely state that the RNG, does not sweep players accounts/betting history before?

I used to think this was the case as well, and the delay (always on the river) futher made me suspicious.

Lately, I had completely put this point out of my head ... but seeing as the question has been asked, and we have the pitboss as a regular poster, it would be good to hear from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

Imposter

I'd say that it's perhaps the fact that it appears that it's a longer wait but it really isn't. After all this is the place in every hand where suspense is at it's highest and it just seems like it takes longer to happen.

karlh

ive no doubt there is a longer delay for turn and river.....very noticeable on pokerstars too i think. just for suspense, nothing wrong with it IMO.

Culchie

I don't think anyone is bothered by the delay, sometimes it seems even more protracted, and a miracle card hits.

I used to be convinced that the two were connected, but have put it down to newbie paranoia etc...

However, it would be nice to hear Pitboss comments on RNG and is it 100% random, or does it sweep other criteria other than random card selection.

NickyOD

Culchie wrote:

I don't think anyone is bothered by the delay, sometimes it seems even more protracted, and a miracle card hits.

I used to be convinced that the two were connected, but have put it down to newbie paranoia etc...

However, it would be nice to hear Pitboss comments on RNG and is it 100% random, or does it sweep other criteria other than random card selection.

Let me try to clear up a few things that may be difficult to undrestand when comparing shuffling an actual deck versus shuffling in a computer program.

First, at the start of the hand, the deck is randomly arranged in a "virtual deck." It's simply 52 locations, each with a designated card of the deck. All 52 cards will be randomly placed in the deck, just like when we shuffle a real deck.

Unlike how a real deck is dealt, which is top down, the computer program randomly picks a card from a position in the deck when a card is needed. So the deck is randomly arranged, and then the cards are randomly picked out of this virtual deck. If all 52 card are in the deck when a card is needed, then the program will randomly pick a number from 1 to 52, and whichever card was in that position will be the card selected.

Now, one thing PS says they do is that instead of asking for a random number between 1 and 52, they will ask for a number between 1 and something like 80. If the result is not between 1 and 52, then this result is discarded, and they try again until they get a number between 1 and 52.

UB software constantly reshuffles the virtual decks until a random card is requested. So the state of the virtual deck for a game is never "frozen in time", it is constantly changing. Once a card is needed from the deck, the RNG will select a random number, which will correlate to one of the positions in the virtual deck.

I don't know how other sites do it but I can guarantee you the final card is never known until it is dealt and the card selected by the RNG is completely dependent on the timing of actions of the last player to act on each street.

Culchie

Thanks Nicky,

The question is ...is the RNG simply that? ...does it selects a random number from the remaining pack, or does it also take into account any other criteria that the sites could have set up? ..... and will the PPP Pit Boss absolutely guarantee that no other criteria is used in card selection.

It is a fair enough and straight enough question to the industry, because it could suit to give a 6 hour, 7 day a week regular player (regular rake earner) the perfect card to win over a total newbie playing freerolls on a saturday morning and 25c stt ....

PPP-Pit Boss

Played in more than a few games at the open over the weekend and I recall commenting something to the affect of "For the love of GOD what did I do to the dealer?" A series of riduculous bad beats persued me over the weekend from poker Q's being busted by 3 4 os to AK rivered by 10 9 os. And I commented to my table about RNG and how we constantly receive "Rigged" comments about it.. I thought Jesus H if this happened online they would all be going ballistic! So that I guess is a personal comment on it.. next time I will record them all and post them here and we shall see if there is any difference in the bad beat ratio! Of course remember your online bad beat is someone elses good beat so tell me Iago.. "WHAT did YOU do to the RNG dealer for it to hate you so?" Did it simply not like your name? or was it something even more sinister? And so to the business perspective:
Of MAJOR concern to me when I took up my post in Paddy Power was "is there any truth whatsoever in these stacked hand rumours I hear so much about. It was in fact my first question.. Tribeca employs a RNG system, the random number generator uses (collects) noise from the system, device drivers and other sources such as network activity and CPU utilization, into an entropy pool. From this entropy pool random numbers are created.

We then to take seeds from that pool on a periodic basis. These seeds serve as the starting number for an elementary cellular automaton. A cellular automaton in our case is an array of binary values. A complex rule for state transitions creates new random numbers from the seed value. We use a rule known to produce randomness. "Rule 30 is of special interest because it is chaotic … this rule is used as the random number generator used for large integers in Mathematica."

Once we have that seed, we produce random number through the state transitions of the cellular automaton. Our cellular automaton has 256 bits. We take the additional step of randomly selecting one bit from each of the successive 255 rows (states) to produce our random numbers.

Our random number generator passed two standard tests: the Diehard and the ENT tests. More importantly, we our code has been inspected and certified by an BMM independent testing lab specializing in the analysis, review, and certification of software for gaming and cryptology.

In addition of late another independant certification body "Gaming Associates" have fully tested and passed the Tribeca RNG.

What you need to understand though.. (TECHNICAL BIT OVER I PROMISE!) is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER in having our customers lose! If you have no money left.. you will not play.. if you do not play.. Paddy Power Poker cannot take any rake or any tournament fee from you. If our RNG was fixed.. you would not play with us at all.. we would not be in the poker business... I would cry.. all would be unhappy! ;0)
Neither I nor Paddy Power would associate with any business who we were not 100% sure were transparent and fair.. it would ruin our livelihood think about it?

I have never noticed a lag.. I have certainly held my breath on a number of occasions pre-river.....

mewso

What is the reasoning for not simulating a real deal? i.e. taking cards from the top as in reality? If a virtual shuffle is sufficiantly random then I don't see why they cannot just deal as normal then. I remebmer VC saying they do not burn because the reason for burning a card does not apply online. I, personally would virtually burn and show the animation to users. It all adds up to making it more real (appearances wise). I think it invites suspicion not simulating reality.

PPP-Pit Boss

musician wrote:

What is the reasoning for not simulating a real deal? i.e. taking cards from the top as in reality? If a virtual shuffle is sufficiantly random then I don't see why they cannot just deal as normal then. I remebmer VC saying they do not burn because the reason for burning a card does not apply online. I, personally would virtually burn and show the animation to users. It all adds up to making it more real (appearances wise). I think it invites suspicion not simulating reality.

Would be a rather nice touch muso.. ;0) I shall put it in the developement bag (this is also virtual by the way)

-I have nothing to declare but my bad beat

karlh

i'd like the occasional bum deal and miscalculated side pot just so i know things are all above board.

Iago

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

Of course remember your online bad beat is someone elses good beat so tell me Iago.. "WHAT did YOU do to the RNG dealer for it to hate you so?" Did it simply not like your name? or was it something even more sinister?

I never did nothin' right?? Although now that you mention it, there was this rumour about his mother and sister, but I didn't know at the time honest

Seriously though, there is a lag, and whether it's for effect or not I don't know. I don't seriously believe that online poker is rigged, I just had a prety bad day yesterday with bad beats when I was miles ahead, that's as likely to happen offline as online and the only sligh consolation is that I don't have to watch DeV or Marq smirking as they deliver that bad beat card

Culchie

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

What you need to understand though.. (TECHNICAL BIT OVER I PROMISE!) is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER in having our customers lose! If you have no money left.. you will not play.. if you do not play.. Paddy Power Poker cannot take any rake or any tournament fee from you. If our RNG was fixed.. you would not play with us at all.. we would not be in the poker business... I would cry.. all would be unhappy! ;0)
Neither I nor Paddy Power would associate with any business who we were not 100% sure were transparent and fair.. it would ruin our livelihood think about it?

I have never noticed a lag.. I have certainly held my breath on a number of occasions pre-river.....

With respect, this answer does not address the issue of favouring one player over another (although the technical part of your answer did, as far as I could understand it).....although 'rules' in a program, are written by someone, but I will let someone more technically minded answer that one.

If PPP or any other site were 'dodgy', it would of course be more beneficial to keep the guy playing 1000's per week sweet (because of rake) when up against a 'freebie student/newbie' ... in a showdown.
And regarding the "we wouldn't associate with that sort of thing" type policy, well the cigarette companies were saying something similar for many years until science proved otherwise ...so that type of defense is also one I would not necessarily listen to either.
The fact that Poker Sites have been closed down before proves that there are rogue operators out there as well.

Thanks for the reply though, ....P.S There is definitely a protracted delay on some river cards, that are not there on others.

PPP-Pit Boss

karlh wrote:

i'd like the occasional bum deal and miscalculated side pot just so i know things are all above board.

oh you do make me larf! I can see it now the team would love me.. 400 customers pinging managers as the RNG upturned cards on the table..

Iago gonna check out that lag tonight.. stop watch n all ;0)

Culchie.. not sure how much more technical you want it? An algorithm perhaps? Favouring one player against another would be death to sites one way or the other.. ITS CALLED CHEATING! Higher or lower rake does not come into it, loyalty and word of mouth are the only consideratiosn of import! Students (and all of their HUGE amounts of contacts and friends?) I fail to see your point on this one. I cannot convince you so I guess I shall have to leave it lie.

Culchie

Pit Boss ... I don't need convincing, or I wouldn't be playing on-line. I found your explanation informative....thank you.

I said IF PPP was a rogue player ... blah blah blah

IF PPP was a rogue player, you can be damn sure that rake would come into play ... it makes complete sense (for a rogue/criminal) to keep Mr Loadsamoney sweet against Mr Cheapass in a showdown.

Mr Cheapass logs off....MR Loadsamoney keeps playing ...rogue site keeps collecting rake, and using deposits on bank account.

Surely you see that argument, and the need to address that question ? (as you have) .

henbane

Pitboss, you seem to be quoting from a technical document describing the RNG. Any chance you could post up full details or the rules/algorithm for Tribeca sites?

I'm geek enough to be interested in the technical details.

PPP-Pit Boss

What I would REALLY like to do (progress is being made) is to post up true data of hand agains hand statistics on the site.. AA beats KK x times x amount of pockets dealt etc. I am in the progress of getting this together.. along with five pizza's two wedgies and a box of matches... (stream of conciousness again). Working on it I think the info should be available soon ;0) Culchie thanks for reply ;0)

Hectorjelly

This is the most ridicluous thread Ive read in some time. Online poker isnt rigged, end of story.

kencleary

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is the most ridicluous thread Ive read in some time. Online poker isnt rigged, end of story.

Well you would say that, being in on the conspiracy and all.

Lafortezza

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

I am in the progress of getting this together.. along with five pizza's two wedgies and a box of matches... (stream of conciousness again).

Freudian?

Iago

Complete with Lag on River Card!!

Hand id : 2820407-14
Board cards : Kd 7d Kc 4d Qc

Main pot : 4,850
IKANTSTOP ....... Qh Qd
golly ....... Ad Ks

IKANTSTOP wins 4,850 with Full House : Queens full of Kings

two outs on the river...it's not rigged honest

BrendanB

Does the person getting the miracle river card experience a pause as well? Or is it more an existential pause as the sraf flows to the great void? Seriously people, go play roulette. Remember the slagging the blackjack programme got about finding lucky dealers? I'm guessing a fixed poker site might decide not to have a special and noticeable pause before paying off the schill.

john_g83

my this is one of the most specious arguments I have heard in a while.
Geting beaten on the river happens. Everyone here has both beaten people on the river and been beaten on the river in 1,2,...N out situations.
Remember:
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon and some days the statue."

Hectorjelly

BrendanB wrote:

I'm guessing a fixed poker site might decide not to have a special and noticeable pause before paying off the schill.

Maybe its a doublebluff!

Iago

and another..

Hand id : 2821213-19
Board cards : 2s 6c Kd Kc Tc

Main pot : 4,070
simsy ....... Ks Ts
golly ....... Qs Kh

simsy wins 4,070 with Full House : Kings full of 10s

just for clarity I don't beleive online poker is rigged, I'm just very unlucky!

Imposter

john_g83 wrote:

"Accept that some days you are the pigeon and some days the statue."

Well I was the statue last night for sure.

2/4 Limit - 6 handed
Me on BB: 89 (possibly suited can't remember)
Villan: Ax suited (x was something like a 4 or 5)
Board: TJQ x K
That's with both of us calling and raising all the way through: I think 2 bets preflop, 3 on flop, 3 on Turn and 1 on river.

Lost with large PP's so often or else everyone folded. Won one semi decent pot with AA with a K high board but that was it.

and finally:
Me: 9Ts
Villan: J4o
Flop: 78J
1 bet preflop, 2 on flop (he raised)
Turn: J
4 bets on turn
River: 8
1 bet (I called but I knew he had a J - I know silly)

On the last one he had 10 outs on the river but from the flop he was a huge underdog.

I suppose I was lucky it was limit and not NL as i'd have lost a few buy-ins!