Concerns: Winchester, 4 DIMMs in Dual Channel

po0k

I'm looking to build a new box in the next two months.

Core spec will be something like this:
A64 'Winchester' 3500 (2.2Ghz, 512Cache, 90nm)
MSI or DFI NF4 Ultra SLI board or something similar
either 2x512Meg sticks of PC4400+ DDR, or 1-2 1Gig sticks in the highest speed I can.
Probably Thermalright XP90c or a 120, 92mm Papst fan.

My concerns are over some stuff i read about the A64 memory controller not being able to drive 4x dimms in Dual channel at 400Mhz, instead dropping to 333Mhz.
I need 1Gig of ram straight off the bat, and ideally I'd be clocking the FSB and Mem (synchronously) to ~220-240Mhz (440-480 effective DDR clock), with a 2-stick config in Dual Channel mode.
Does the DC clock issue still appear with the Winchester cores?
Is it possible to overclock the FSB and Mem synchronously in DC mode?
Can I have my cake, eat it and ask for whipped cream free of charge?

neokenzo

If you are going to built it in the next few months, wait for the Venice cpus. They have better memory controller and supports SSE3. Overclocking wise, get the DFI instead of the MSI.
Shouldnt have any problems clocking it to 220Mhz to 240Mhz, you'll probably get more depending on what RAM you get and what timings you want to run it with. Though you can only run 2 memory stick only but you can get 2*512 so shouldnt be a problem. If you want more RAM, you can get 2*1GB but you'll probably suffer some speed with those. I'm not sure whether Venice will allow you to run 4 sticks at DDR400. We'll know soon enough since its coming out within the next week or two.
Yes, you can run it 1:1 so go get your cake and eat it with whatever topings you want

po0k

Cool, I won't be building this till about end of May.

Looking to spend between 1 and 2 grand, complete new system.
Aircooled, but quiet as possible

I'm not too bothered with overclocking, once I get the chip to 2.4 or 2.6Gz stable, with the mem synchronous and in Dual-channel.
I'd happily get 1 stick of Gig, and get a second one down the road, might get 2x sticks straight off the bat though, and not have to touch that bit of the machine again.

A dual-core FX chip would be the next core-related upgrade in 6-12 months time if I have the cash.

A fortron 400W+ PSU is on the cards, unless someone can recommend something better. Will be picking up some sort of UPS aswell, not neccesarily for keeping the machine up, but more for line conditioning to help the PSU out a bit

Graphics wise I'm looking at getting a mid-range X800 or X850. I'm a little unsure as to the differences, have the 850s been manufactured with a smaller process or something?
Looking for 16 piplines and a card that will clock stable at ~500core/1000mem with a reasonably quiet cooling solution.
I could give two shíts about SLI at the moment, but I've learnt the hard way* that it's nice to have options for future expansion
Linux compatability is an issue too though, so I've to be especially careful about what storage, USB/FireWire, LAN PHYs and Audio codecs come with the board, though I plan to chuck a Audigy of some sort into her aswell.

* Owner of a Slot1 coppermine box with PC100, ATA33 and AGP v1.0

astrofool

may I recommend this as a power supply:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_165&products_id=1104&osCsid=8cba19ca325beaa426d00bebbc0b95d6


Or if you want to spend lots of cash this:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2881&osCsid=b8c076129bd691b7145a1d0f59880729

po0k

Both are gorgeous, 500-odd quid for a PSU is a bit extreme though
I'll look into the GlobalWin a bit more.

ShevY

the right x800pro will flash to x800xt enabling 16pipelines

mine will be arriving tomorrow, $280.

WizZard

IMO the X800XL is what you want. Get a Sapphire one. 16 pipelines, runs cooler than the Pro's and it's relatively cheap (~€300). And they beat the pants of most other cards in that price range.
I agree with neokenzo, wait for Venice - hopefullt they will OC well.

Remember, if you run 4 sticks of RAM you will be limited to 2T command-rate (CPC). I am, but I still enjoy having 2gigs of RAM

BabyEater

I wouldn't go for that Global Win that astro linked to as it is not ATX 12V 2.0 but 1.3, you should lok for a power supply with plenty of juice on the 12V line and a couple of 12V lines, the PC Power & Cooling would be nice though. Fortron are good just make sure it is version 2.0.
I would also recommend going for Venice as you could get a CBBID which I got that hardly overclocks, and the memory controller is supposed to have been improved.
I got an X800XL great card as it has the 16 pipes but don't expect it to clock to 500MHz on the core, memory should go to about 1100MHZ, mabye more maybe less.

WizZard

Why, what does the XL clock ot on the core?



@OP: I have a great PSU for sale - see thread in FS forums (yes, i am a broken record!)

BabyEater

Mine done about 440 stock cooling will put water on it but I am not expecting much more. Most of them top out at about 450 from what I have seen. My RAM does 1120MHz which is not too bad.

WizZard

Jeez, that's not great for an XL, I can get my X800 vanilla core to 452 stock air, and 462 stable on water!
Thank God I didn't spend the extra €100!

Of course my VGA RAM is crappy...

gline

BabyEater wrote:

Mine done about 440 stock cooling will put water on it but I am not expecting much more. Most of them top out at about 450 from what I have seen. My RAM does 1120MHz which is not too bad.

That seems terrible for overclocking,id be pissed if i could only get less than 70-100mhz extra out of a gfx,lol

neokenzo

Running 4 sticks of RAM will automatically lower your devided to 133Mhz or something like that if I am not mistaken. Anyway, its not ideal to run 4 sticks with AMD. Besides 1GB would be more than sufficient.

BabyEater

I am generally unluky when getting parts to overclock as I bought a winchester a while back and I got a week 50 CBBID.

neokenzo

You're not the only one BabyEater

po0k

neokenzo wrote:

Running 4 sticks of RAM will automatically lower your devided to 133Mhz or something like that if I am not mistaken. Anyway, its not ideal to run 4 sticks with AMD. Besides 1GB would be more than sufficient.

It drops to 166 (333DDR) with all 4 banks populated, which sucks.

And 1 GB isn't sufficient. It's the minimum anyone should put in a box right now, I'm building this machine to last me at least a year, if not 2 and I plan to go to 2GB+ in the next 9-12 months after building the box at the end of May.

Time to start looking for 1Gig sticks of DDR500 I guess.

neokenzo

There's 2x1GB sticks available at the moment. They are more expensive and loose timings.

po0k

I'd rather hunt down a source for single packs of 1Gig sticks with decent timings
Hopefully it won't matter and Venice will bring DDR400+ support for full population.

BabyEater

From xbitlabs

Athlon 64 processors based on Venice can work with four single-side DDR400 SDRAM modules without any limitations, and if there are double-side DDR400 SDRAM DIMMs installed, they can work at 400MHz with 2T timing.

review here

WizZard

Fabulous BabyEater!!!!!
Anyone want a Winnie? Winnie for sale, does 2.5 on water!!!

gline

WizZard wrote:

Fabulous BabyEater!!!!!
Anyone want a Winnie? Winnie for sale, does 2.5 on water!!!

how much? i may be interested, pm me

BabyEater

I think I might purchase one of these if the lower rated ones get up to that speed. I would be looking at the 3200 hopefully water will take it over 2.9.
Beats my CBBID at 2.4.

po0k

What constitutes a double-sided DDR400 stick?
1Gig or 512Meg?

Also, while that's excellent news, I'm a little worried about the configuration.
Can Venice run 2 Single-sided and 2 Double-sided DIMMs at DDR400 with no limitations?
Is it only in 4x DS DIMMs at DDR400 that the 2T limitation comes into effect?

neokenzo

I think they meant if the RAM is double sided or single sided. Not the actually size of the RAM.
I dont think you would be able to run 2 single sided and 2 double sided if you want to run at 1T.

padraigf

As far as I know you can use 4 sticks at DDR 400 by dropping the timings to 2T. That should be all you have to sacrifice...

BadCharlie

gline wrote:

That seems terrible for overclocking,id be pissed if i could only get less than 70-100mhz extra out of a gfx,lol

I have been reading alot about these cards. They dont overclock well at all but the price you get them at is still good. There ment to be at almost the same par with a 6800GT but when you oc the 2 cards. The GT pulls ahead but also you have to consider that the GT is somewhat more to buy.