Red Cow Robbed?

bohsman

While Im waiting for Hectors report the figures Ive heard are 125 entries at 75euro a head = 9375 Nearly covering the 10K prizepool.

With rebuy/topup costing only 50 cheaper than the entry 100% should have topped up/ rebought but lets say 100 did thats a prizepool of 14375 with supposedly 10k paid out does anyone know the full payouts? And any comments Fintan?

1st 2000+250ticket

Hyzepher

As far as I know the entry was only €50+€5

Hyzepher

bohsman

Right you are. Its Galway Im thinking off, Jaden or anyone else did you play the 10k Guaranteed, how many runners?

As for the red cow.
125 runners at 50=6250 This was 5000 CAPPED if Im not mistaken
So say 80people rebought/topped up thats a prizepool of 10250 with 5000 in prizemoney and a rake of over 100%

No wonder Fintans been so quiet.

Pokerevents

Hi Bohs,

Just back from city west and noticed your posts.
One of the lads turned up from boards and I'm sure He will fill you in on the event, and give you correct information.
Players were 122.
Payout was €7000 plus high hand €100 and €100 for bounty on nominated player.
Anyway bohs we have being down this road and it's getting a little boring, so I suggest if you want an argument tell nicky od he's crap at hold'em.


Fintan.

NickyOD

Pokerevents wrote:

Hi Bohs,

Just back from city west and noticed your posts.
One of the lads turned up from boards and I'm sure He will fill you in on the event, and give you correct information.
Players were 122.
Payout was €7000 plus high hand €100 and €100 for bounty on nominated player.
Anyway bohs we have being down this road and it's getting a little boring, so I suggest if you want an argument tell nicky od he's crap at hold'em.
Fintan.

Sure, that'll work! :rolleyes:

122*50 = €6100 + rebuys. 7K eh fintan? How many buy-backs/add-ons were there?

I see the prizepool in Cork was 9K. How many players played in Cork?

A guy I know dealing at the event told me it was not capped, and that
money taken was from SnGs and reg fees only. Is that true?

EDIT: Ok wait there were 160 so it was. Never mind.

Pokerevents

tell me nicky what is happening in Limerick with regards to poker.
Is there anything happening at the moment. I'm getting e-mails on a daily basis from Limerick people looking for the tour.

Davey Devil

Nice return to the old persona Fintin :rolleyes:

Can you not answer Nicky's questions in a professional way without resorting to pointless comments?

So you charge a €5 reg and cap the the prizepool for decent profit. Nice for some. I can't understand how the people from Dublin play in these events. They have so much choice between the casino's and the internet but instead choose to be ripped off, the mind boggles.

Pokerevents wrote:

Your points have being taken on board as with other good suggestions I have recieved from people on this site, and I intend to make changes to pokerevents smaller buy-in events.
What I am planning is for the €50's to be a €50 plus 25/30 with all re-buys top-ups into the pool. This will barley cover costs so I would have to charge a yearly membership fee. I'm not sure how it would work as I'm positive some events will have lower pay-outs. But it is clearer to the players what house takes.

What happened to taking suggestions on board? Can you put a time frame on when these changes will take place? Or maybe you have figured out that people will finally realise what a rip off these events are if you make the money distribution transparent.

bohsman

So you pocketed about 4k? Im not arguing for the sake of arguing I believe that the Irish public should not be ripped off for the good of Irish poker.

Anyway I would like to suggest anyone not happy with the capped prizepool email VC and tell them what you think of their companys involvement in ripping off the Irish public

NickyOD

Pokerevents wrote:

tell me nicky what is happening in Limerick with regards to poker.
Is there anything happening at the moment. I'm getting e-mails on a daily basis from Limerick people looking for the tour.

Fintan, there is a similar capped event to yours which I don't go to either even though its right on my own doorstep. Don't act like you are doing irish punters a favour Fintan because you really aren't, and I'll continue to voice my opinions on the matter regardless.

Are you going to answer my questions at all? Where did the rest of the prizepool go?

Hyzepher

I for one am finding all this tooing and froing a little childish. Maybe we can get some closure on it?

Pokerevents - do you announce at your tournaments that the prize fund is capped at a certain amount - if not, is it? Do you announce at your events that a certain % is retained?

Personally if pokerevents announces either of these then I don't have a problem with him. The players are aware of the facts b4 they play. If pokerevents doesn't announce these then I would recommend that he starts to do so - just to keep everything transparent.

To be fair I think most of the players that go to his events are expecting some of the money to go towards costs etc. However, it is the manner that the money is skimmed. Surely it would be better to increase the registration so that it is all transparent without the need for explanation.

Hyzepher

Pokerevents

Gentlemen please,
Not very smart to accuse someone in the wrong.
Bohsman you have four different posts each with incorrect information on it.
Please get your facts right as you are misleading people.
How can you call a event a rip off without having first hand experience of it?
Or is this the norm on this site, where some people just fling as much as they can to discredit people.
Firstly Davey there was no profit, anyone in their right minds can plainly see that. People have a good choice and many options especially in Dublin. However they are supporting the Irish tour, and I'm know why. The bottom line is these are the best tournaments in Ireland at the moment. They are run well with series prizefunds that are announced in advanced. Nobody is hiding anything in my organisation.
Nicky see my post on the Red Cow event two weeks ago where I give a full breakdown of costs. Players are informed on the night that a percentage of the re-buys go towards the overheads of our small buy in events only. All our larger buy-in events pay out 100% and more.
As I have stated very clearly on this site suggestions for increasing reg fee for these smaller events with full payout of re-buys makes sense, and that will be introduced for next tour.
Hector can you publish a write up on your experience in the Red cow?

Hyzepher

Thanks for the reply pokerevents.

It seems fair that pokerevents should be spared the accusations unless you have had personal experience of his events or being ripped off at one.

Spouting heresay just makes your argument look weak

Hyzepher

NickyOD

Hyzepher wrote:

I for one am finding all this tooing and froing a little childish. Maybe we can get some closure on it?

Pokerevents - do you announce at your tournaments that the prize fund is capped at a certain amount - if not, is it? Do you announce at your events that a certain % is retained?

Personally if pokerevents announces either of these then I don't have a problem with him. The players are aware of the facts b4 they play. If pokerevents doesn't announce these then I would recommend that he starts to do so - just to keep everything transparent.

To be fair I think most of the players that go to his events are expecting some of the money to go towards costs etc. However, it is the manner that the money is skimmed. Surely it would be better to increase the registration so that it is all transparent without the need for explanation.

Hyzepher

The majority of the players that go to the event are not farmiliar with normal tournament payout structure. Most would never have played in casinos, only in charity type events in bars. The IPT website says nothing about prizepools being capped. It mentions a €5 reg fee, which under normal circumstances you would assume is all they take. This IMO is blatant false advertising.

In Cork this week there were 160 players and had a big demand for ST Freezouts during the tournament.

160*50=8000. If Fintans estimations are correct there should have been about 88 by-backs/add-ons (probably more). which makes it 8000+4400= 12,400. There were also bounties and a prize for best hand but I don't know how much they were. The total prizepool however was only 9K.

So how does anyone know how much value you are getting before you play? The answer is you don't.

NickyOD

Pokerevents wrote:

Gentlemen please,
Not very smart to accuse someone in the wrong.
Bohsman you have four different posts each with incorrect information on it.
Please get your facts right as you are misleading people.
How can you call a event a rip off without having first hand experience of it?
Or is this the norm on this site, where some people just fling as much as they can to discredit people.
Firstly Davey there was no profit, anyone in their right minds can plainly see that. People have a good choice and many options especially in Dublin. However they are supporting the Irish tour, and I'm know why. The bottom line is these are the best tournaments in Ireland at the moment. They are run well with series prizefunds that are announced in advanced. Nobody is hiding anything in my organisation.
Nicky see my post on the Red Cow event two weeks ago where I give a full breakdown of costs. Players are informed on the night that a percentage of the re-buys go towards the overheads of our small buy in events only. All our larger buy-in events pay out 100% and more.
As I have stated very clearly on this site suggestions for increasing reg fee for these smaller events with full payout of re-buys makes sense, and that will be introduced for next tour.
Hector can you publish a write up on your experience in the Red cow?

I've read the breakdown. The only item outside of normal casino expenses is hotel hire. I'm sorry but it just doesn't add up. You are charging a reg fee, you are sponsored and you're also making money from sidegames.

mewso

When you get to a final table in the Fitz Luke will come up and announce how much they took in and what the prizes are etc. Any tourney director should announce at some point once all buy-ins are finished how much was taken in and how much is being deducted so that we can all see how the final figure is arrived at. It seems in the case of pokerevents that they are announcing at the start that a certain amount is being taken for costs. This is good news and more than others seem to be doing but to top it off announce how much is being subtracted.
What really bothers me about pokerevents is the VC sponsorship. VC should be ensuring these prizepools are not capped by covering your costs. Otherwise they will get a bad name for backing capped tourneys.

Pokerevents

Nicky, casino's do not make any money what-so-ever from any tournament that has less than €20reg fee. Any one that knows anything can tell you that. They run smaller tournaments as loss leaders. That is why you get the best dealers at the cash games and newer croupiers being trained in at the tournament tables. You have even seen it in the City west at week-end. Down to the final two tables on the Friday night my dealer was totally inexperienced and was working a 12 hour shift. The seasoned dealers were all on the cash games. I cannot by law run cash games, I'm at a disadvantage straight away.
I think for myself for the future is to get sponsers to cover greater percentage of the production costs. Again as I have said I'm on a learning curve and this is our first series of events. However my players are completely satisfied with events so far, so it is looking good for the down the road, when we have tweaked these matters.

NickyOD

Pokerevents wrote:

Nicky, casino's do not make any money what-so-ever from any tournament that has less than €20reg fee. Any one that knows anything can tell you that. They run smaller tournaments as loss leaders. That is why you get the best dealers at the cash games and newer croupiers being trained in at the tournament tables. You have even seen it in the City west at week-end. Down to the final two tables on the Friday night my dealer was totally inexperienced and was working a 12 hour shift. The seasoned dealers were all on the cash games. I cannot by law run cash games, I'm at a disadvantage straight away.
I think for myself for the future is to get sponsers to cover greater percentage of the production costs. Again as I have said I'm on a learning curve and this is our first series of events. However my players are completely satisfied with events so far, so it is looking good for the down the road, when we have tweaked these matters.

Fintan, I know all this. I know casinos run smaller events at a loss and make up for in cashgames on the side. If you had charged a €20-€25 reg fee you would have taken in a similar amount of money from the punters. I've got no problem with that reg fee as long as I know where the money is going. If you then added all the buy-backs to the prizepool, players are getting much better value, particularly those who bought back. Also only 10 players got paid in a 160 player double chance. That is very tight indeed.

NickyOD

musician wrote:

It seems in the case of pokerevents that they are announcing at the start that a certain amount is being taken for costs. QUOTE]

But its not a fixed amount if the prizepool is capped. The more people buy back the more money PE makes, so they are not actually being transparrant about the money they take for costs in that respect.

Jaden

I'm sure Hector will give us a write up on the Red Cow stuff.

I myself will be in the Westwood 10K tonight in Galway. €75 in (which I gladly stump up to get out of the house for several hours) with a €50 re-buy (kindly paid for me by Fintan as compensation for looking around while I should be looking at my cards). I consider it sporting of him to offer this.

There will be a full and unbiased report delivered tomorrow morning on all aspects of the night. That should dispell all this to and froing that's becoming so tiresome.

POKERKING

can i ask nicky and everyone else out there 1 simple question? if they werent making a profit why would they bother running tournaments? if no one made money from running poker then there wouldnt be any tournamnets. think about it logically why would fintan or anyone else go to the hassle(and it is alot of hassle especially on a big scale) of running tournaments if they werent getting anything out of it,they don't do it for the good of there health,no one would do it for nothing,thats business so i have no problem in pokerevents taking some of the profits just as long as a percentage is put back in and everyone knows exactly beforehand how much. if you go to a tournament with a guarnteed 1st prize of lets say 10k your basically going to try win 10k anything above that is a bonus when you rebuy in one of these tournamnets your still doing it on the pretence that you want to win the 10k. what im trying to say is basically that in every poker tournament there is always somebody making something out of it its just business,no one is forced to play in these tournaments you either play or you dont regardless of who is making out of it. its not really anybodys business how much profit pokerevents makes out of it ive never played in a tournamnet where somebody isnt benefitting from the tournamnet!

Lafortezza

POKERKING wrote:

can i ask nicky and everyone else out there 1 simple question? if they werent making a profit why would they bother running tournaments? if no one made money from running poker then there wouldnt be any tournamnets.

It's not the fact that they are making profit from the tournaments at all, they're entitled to do that.

The problem is that Pokerevents are not being clear about how much money punters are paying (in entry fees and rebuys) versus the amount of money that is being given out in prizes.

Read Nicky's posts about how the prize funds and estimated entry fees etc don't match up.

If pokerevents said 80% of all moneys taken in at the tournament would be the prize fund then that'd fine. It would be nice and clear.
But (as far as I can read into all the post over the last few weeks) it seems that there is no announcement at the tournaments of how much money was taken in and how much the prizes will be.

To take it to an extreme if the tournament took in €20,000 in entry fees and top ups, and guaranteed a €5,000 total prize fund, would you still say he's entitled to make a profit?

All people are asking is that PokerEvents be TRANSPARENT about how the money taken in by entry fees and rebuys/topups equates to the eventual prize pool.

NickyOD

POKERKING wrote:

can i ask nicky and everyone else out there 1 simple question? if they werent making a profit why would they bother running tournaments? if no one made money from running poker then there wouldnt be any tournamnets. think about it logically why would fintan or anyone else go to the hassle(and it is alot of hassle especially on a big scale) of running tournaments if they werent getting anything out of it,they don't do it for the good of there health,no one would do it for nothing,thats business so i have no problem in pokerevents taking some of the profits just as long as a percentage is put back in and everyone knows exactly beforehand how much. if you go to a tournament with a guarnteed 1st prize of lets say 10k your basically going to try win 10k anything above that is a bonus when you rebuy in one of these tournamnets your still doing it on the pretence that you want to win the 10k. what im trying to say is basically that in every poker tournament there is always somebody making something out of it its just business,no one is forced to play in these tournaments you either play or you dont regardless of who is making out of it. its not really anybodys business how much profit pokerevents makes out of it ive never played in a tournamnet where somebody isnt benefitting from the tournamnet!

Of course they should make a profit. That's not the point at all. When I pay money to enter a poker tournament I want to be clear on how much value for money I am getting. What % of my money will go to pokerevents and what % of it will go into the prizepool. I want it clear if a % of the prizepool will be taken, but it is not clear as the % seems to vary from event to event. If they stopped capping the prizepool and just increased the reg fee accordingly everyone would be happy. They would still make a profit and the prizepool would increase in relation to the number of entries.

hallelujajordan

NickyOD wrote:

Of course they should make a profit. That's not the point at all. When I pay money to enter a poker tournament I want to be clear on how much value for money I am getting. What % of my money will go to pokerevents and what % of it will go into the prizepool. I want it clear if a % of the prizepool will be taken, but it is not clear as the % seems to vary from event to event. If they stopped capping the prizepool and just increased the reg fee accordingly everyone would be happy. They would still make a profit and the prizepool would increase in relation to the number of entries.

I don't understand ! capping the prizepool makes it crystal clear . . in fact, it couldn't really be any clearer ! There will be 10k in the prizepool regardless of the number of entries . . the organisers are taking the risk that they won't make enough to pay the prize fund and balancing that risk against extra profits that they might make depending on the take on the night . . .

It might not be the way it is normally done and you might not like it, but its not unclear . . . and as this is a private enterprise that pokerevents et al are presumable running to make a profit it is up to them to decide how to run it . . . it is up to the punters to talk with their feet if they don't like it . .

as a punter, I think I might talk with my feet by attending the next one . . .

NickyOD

hallelujajordan wrote:

I don't understand ! capping the prizepool makes it crystal clear ..

The website does not state any prizepools are capped. ..[/QUOTE]

hallelujajordan wrote:

. in fact, it couldn't really be any clearer ! There will be 10k in the prizepool regardless of the number of entries . . ..

Do you think its fair to have the same prizepool for 140 entries as for 160 in a double chance event? Unless I know exactly how many players enter, and how many will buy-back before the event then I don't know what value for money I am getting. The only events that should ever have capped prizepools are freerolls.

hallelujajordan wrote:

. the organisers are taking the risk that they won't make enough to pay the prize fund and balancing that risk against extra profits that they might make depending on the take on the night . . . ..

There is no risk involved. Thay have always gotten enough players to more than cover the prizepools. If they feel they're not going to get enough players to take in the amount they want to take they can adjust the reg fee accordingly instead of taking it from the prizpool.

hallelujajordan wrote:

. it is up to them to decide how to run it . . . it is up to the punters to talk with their feet if they don't like it . .

Of course it is but that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion about it.

bohsman

I give up, play wherever you want, might even set up my own tournament looks like a lucrative business and as people dont care where their money is going there doesnt have to be a prizepool. I think Ill go with amusements citys idea.

20euro entry with 10euro rebuys Blinds double every 15 minutes. 1000 chips starting and 1000 per rebuy. 5000 for the topup.
Its going to be 200 euro for 1st 50for 2nd Winner also gets free entry to next weeks tourny. These will be held in a venue yet to be decided. There will be dealers for every table and alcohol will be available.
Who's in?

Im sure I could fill that tournament every week and make nearly as much profit as Fintan. Thats all that I have to say about Pokerevents etc, more to come on my tourny which may or may not be as fair as the above.

Phil_321

@Nicky
I don't see what the problem is here. No-one is forced into playing a tournament. If you don't like it, don't go. Or start running you're own tournaments with you're own way of doing things. The way I see it they're entitled to run the tournament however they want and if that means they make more cash, fair plate to them.

Do you think its fair to have the same prizepool for 140 entries as for 160 in a double chance event?

Yes. Here's a (not great) analogy, if a pub raffle sells 100 tickets they'll still give out the same prizes as if they had sold 200 tickets. If people don't want to buy a raffle ticket cos they don't like the prizes/way it's run they don't have to. I can't see what's wrong with the organisers making a profit.

NickyOD

Phil_321 wrote:

If you don't like it, don't go. .

I don't go, but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to voice my opinion.

Phil_321 wrote:

I Yes. Here's a (not great) analogy, if a pub raffle sells 100 tickets they'll still give out the same prizes as if they had sold 200 tickets. If people don't want to buy a raffle ticket cos they don't like the prizes/way it's run they don't have to..

Its an awful analogy. A poker tournament is not a raffle. You always know your chances of winning a raffle is dependent completely on chance and those odds depends on the number of tickets you bought in relation to the total sold.

Your chances of winning a poker tournament dependent mostly on your skill and partly on luck. Not only that but the value of the prize you are playing for should increase with the number of players you are up against. In these tournament it does not.

Phil_321 wrote:

I can't see what's wrong with the organisers making a profit.

I never said there was anything wrong with that! I'm really sick of repeating myself.

podgeen

I find these threads to be quite entertaining

Waylander

Well we are all sick of you repeating yourself too. Maybe you should give everyone a break. You have repeatedly complained that the card clubs are better value, and you have also accepted that tournies are loss leaders for card clubs. So expecting Fintan to compete with these is unrealistic by you own admission. As far as I can see it is transparent, in that everyone knows how much is in the prizepool beforehand. At this stage you decide whether you want to play or not. You have said elsewhere that you played in Galway and plan to play in Dublin and Cork, you cannot be that put off by the prizepool. Please stop rehashing the same point in every post as it gets very tiresome!

bohsman

You dont have to read them

NickyOD

Waylander wrote:

As far as I can see it is transparent, in that everyone knows how much is in the prizepool beforehand.

Of course, but if you don't know how many will play or buy back, how do you know how much your buy-in is worth? Like I said your EV decreases with with every player that enters.

Waylander wrote:

You have said elsewhere that you played in Galway and plan to play in Dublin and Cork,

The prizepools in the supersatellites are not capped. I have never played one of the €50+5 events.

BrendanB

Nicky, grand, you don't like capped prizepools. Your 'right' to voice your opinion is matched by (a) the organisers right to run the tournament the way they want to given prepublication of the terms, and (b) everyone elses right not read the same angry post over and over again. Repetition is not development. If you want to feel superior at the end of your thread, think of the little mantra humbly beseeching god to grant the forbearance to suffer the things in life you cannot change. Then exercise your 'right' to choose not to attend, and find a dark corner of the internet to continue bemoaning the fate of the Irish poker player.

POKERKING

I Think Nicky Is Getting Too Much Of A Hard Time Here He Is Making His Point And Defending It Dont Read It If You Dont Want To!!although I Agree That Pokerevents Are Entitled To Make A Profit(as I Said Above)it Should Also Be Clear How Much There Putting Back In.once I Am Aware I Am Happy But I Wont Hold It Against Them I Will Still Play Like Most Others It Would Just Be Nice To Know In Advance How Much Is Being Put Back Into The Prizepool So As Nicky Said I Can See If Im Getting Value For Money!
Bohsman-ill Play No Botha.....just Kiddin!

Phil_321

NickyOD wrote:

I don't go, but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to voice my opinion.

Have you not voiced it enough already? You've made your point(numerous times), it almost seems like harrassment at this stage.

Its an awful analogy. A poker tournament is not a raffle. You always know your chances of winning a raffle is dependent completely on chance and those odds depends on the number of tickets you bought in relation to the total sold.

Your chances of winning a poker tournament dependent mostly on your skill and partly on luck. Not only that but the value of the prize you are playing for should increase with the number of players you are up against. In these tournament it does not.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle. From the organisers point of view it's a decent analogy. Ie. They give out the same prizes whether they get + or - [insert number] contestants. As long as they advertise beforehand what the prizes are, there's no problem. If someone doesn't like how they run the raffle, or the come up with the prizes they don't have to enter. It's the organisers good fortune if there are extra contestants.
And if I was in a pub where someone kept giving out about the raffle every few minutes I'd tell them to STFU and stop annoying everyone.

Hectorjelly

I played in 2 of their events last week, they were both very well run. Apart from 1 or 2 very small issues the event are probably run at a slightly higher standard than the casinos, and their is certainly more staff present. Its true that the juice on these events is higher than the tournaments run by casinos, but their costs would be a lot higher as well.

As far as I can recall the single table tournaments are good value, 10 people pay €50, and there is €250 for the winner, €150 for 2nd and €50 for third. That means they take €50 rake, which is roughly the same as online.

What is great about the tournaments is the fact that they are introducing texas hold em to a wide range of people who would never step foot in a casino, I met several people who had never played before (bar home games) and really enjoyed it. As a result the standard of play is truly terrible.

hallelujajordan

NICKYOD wrote:

Do you think its fair to have the same prizepool for 140 entries as for 160 in a double chance event? Unless I know exactly how many players enter, and how many will buy-back before the event then I don't know what value for money I am getting. The only events that should ever have capped prizepools are freerolls.

Yes . . While it would not be my preference to have a capped prizepool, so long as its clear how the cash is being distributed its not unfair . .

There is no risk involved. Thay have always gotten enough players to more than cover the prizepools. If they feel they're not going to get enough players to take in the amount they want to take they can adjust the reg fee accordingly instead of taking it from the prizpool.

Sorry, but thats crap . . the fact that they have always taken in enough players to cover their costs does not mean there is no risk (and do you really have the data to support such an assertion). . they are guaranteeing the prize regardless of the number of entrants . . hence there is a risk . . and there is no facility for them to increase the advertised reg . .

Of course it is but that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion about it.

Yes . . over and over and over

Marq

Terry's Chocolate Oranges are bleedin' brilliant.

hallelujajordan

Marq wrote:

Terry's Chocolate Oranges are bleedin' brilliant.

yes. . you gotta love them don't ya . .