Is my intonnation up the left

PersonalJesus

Hola!
After having a problem with my neck pick up falling off the spring and having fixed that i went and messed up my string and saddle heights. I played around with them and got a nice guttural dirty sound that i wanna keep but it has a problem. When i play chords, that are using my highest strings, the chord sounds horrible, more or less quite out of tune. Was wondering if what sort of a probelm you's might think this is? Intonnation perhaps???

FYI im playing a les paul custom through a fender blues deluxe and i mainly play lead guitar in a bluesy rock type fashion (think a combination between early and late primal scream).

Thanks in advance for any help.

feylya

Quick and easy test to see if your intonatino is out. Grab your guitar and a tuner. Tune the string to pitch then play that string at the 12th fret. Read the note on the tuner. If the note isn't the same, your intonation is gone out.

BTW, never try and intonate your guitar using anything but brand new strings.

PersonalJesus

yup it would appear that every string is coming up sharp at the 12 fret. bummer. would this be the reason for my problem?

feylya

How sharp? If it's only slightly sharp, it's probably due to the pressure you put on the string. If it's well off (as in a half or full step), it's the reason.

PersonalJesus

nah its nowhere near that bad just slightly sharp. the tuner is barely "out of the green" if at all.

feylya

Then that's not too bad. How old are the strings?

PersonalJesus

more or less brand spanking new. Its only stated to happen since i had the pickup problem and then played arround with the saddle heights and stuff. maybe im just hearing things but it doenst sound right to me.

david

I may have the solution! If you raised the pickup so that its pretty close to string, the magnets tend to pull the string down and cause bad intonation

feylya

It's a good suggestion but if the string is in tune at the open and 12th positions, it's doubtful it's the magnetic pull.

What is the action set like at the moment? High or low?

PersonalJesus

Have the action set very low, and both pickups are very close to the strings so close their nearly touching when fretted at times. Hmmm unless at certain posistions its getting too close to the magnets? Open chords and 5ths sound fine most of the time.

feylya

It's generally regarded as better practice to move the pickups away slightly from the strings. The magnetic pull will kill your sustain.

Has this just started or has the guitar always been like that? Perhaps it's just more audible now?

kika_j

If you press on the third fret the string should just pass (not rest on at all) the first fret as it goes towards the nut. If it does not then the string is simply too low (due to either design or nut wear). It could be this extra bending of the string by the lower frets thats throwing it out the tone?

Just a suggestion!

PersonalJesus

Yup! thats happening, will change the strings and saddle height once i can get me hands on some new strings once the shops open again.

Will the height of the pickup effect the sustain that much, i have been notiving difference since i raised the neck pickup. I was of the thinking that the closer i could get it the higher the output would be. Is there an optimal height that i should adjust them to?

BTW not sure if its always been like that, maybe it has just become more noticable now.

NeMiSiS

Sorry but.. you own Les Paul Custom .. and you don't know about setting up intonation..?
TK

PersonalJesus

Have basic knowledge of what im doing really.

Im much more or a player than a do-er.

Anyway maybe i was under the mistaken impression that users on this board provided advice and not snide remarks? Hence why i asked for the advice.

Thanks to all those who made constructive posts, keep em coming

NeMiSiS

Yeh, you were mistaken. I'm not only snide I'm rude too.
Every time I change my strings.. I check my intonation, cause well.. I'm great to be honest.
TK

kika_j

I'm not sure if the magnetic pull of the pickups will have anything but a negligeable effect on the sustain even if they are really close. Pickups usually use AlNiCo magnets which are not very strong at all and could never overpower the 30lbs or so of tension in a guitar string (thats a rough figure but i think its a good estimation).

As for the closer pickup/higher output... Yes. (here's the science bit)The closer the strings to the pickup the higher the output in accordance with Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction. the closer the string is to the magnet the higher the EM Flux. Again because of the AlNiCo magnets the gain will only be extreme when you get down to within a millimetre and micrometres of the pickup. You should notice some difference in gain even outside these limits because of amplification tho. It may be a very small change in the current but it gets amplified to f#*k so you can really change the sound of your guitar radically with good adjustments.

Just remember with the magnets closer to the strings the whole note will not be louder, only certain harmonics. if I remember right trebleier sounds from the bridge bassier from the neck

about two thirds down here will explain the harmonics of two pickups better than I can. Adjusting the height of the pickups can be akin to using an extremely sensitive (if somewhat limited) EQ.

Goddammit... I want a Les Paul :rolleyes:

feylya

Pickups effect sustain. Go and try it out. Lower your pickups all the way and play. Then raise them up as high as you can and play. You will notice a change in sustain, if you have a trained enough ear.

kika_j

well gave it a shot... hmmm. yea definately noticed the longer sustain. I still dont think the magnet has any physical effect on the string I think its just the aformentioned higher output.

i.e. I hear the note longer because its louder. Its like turning up the volume on a radio as a song fades out... it seems to take longer.

It's not really longer sustain but its the same effect. So essentially it is longer sustain

Never thought much about this before. I'm actually gona use that now cos the guitar i'm building will have naturally bad sustain. This may help. Cheers feylya

feylya

Guitar you're building will have bad sustain? No guitar should inherently have bad sustain. It all depends what sort of tolerances you use when you're building.

kika_j

Well... it has a short scale length length which generally leads to naturally bad sustain. I have a problem with my left hand. I broke my arm once and when it healed i found I was uncomfortable playing on guitars with long/normal scale lengths. I find shorter ones are more comfortable but need heavier gauge strings to improve the sustain.

The neck angle of the guitar is also set a bit more acute than normal to get the action as low as possible but it does mean the bridge pickup will be a good bit away from the strings so I may revise this to give the pickups a bit of a naturally closer setting.

MY guitar has inherently bad sustain but I learn to live with it for the comfort factor. If it means I dont get cramps every five minutes its worth it.

feylya

A Gibson Les Paul has a shorter scale than normal. It has a bigger neck angle than normal. It's one of the best sustaining guitars made.

Sustain has to do with two things primarily - how well the neck connects with the body and the body mass. If you have a nice tight joint and a heavy/dense body, the guitar should have very good sustain.

Don't forget you can get taller pickup rings. And you could always route a recess on the body for the bridge to sit into so then neck angle can be zero and the pickups can be adjusted differently.

kika_j

when I say short scale length I mean short.

Fenders 25 1/2"
Gibsons 24 9/16" (though they say 3/8)
Gibson Byrdland @ 23 1/2 is more what i'mtalking though currently i'm building a 23 1/32" (just cant quite make the jump to 23)

As far as the neck/body join i keep em neat and rigid but @ 23 1/32" the length of the neck comes into play in a noticeable way. I had this problem with an old guitar I built. nice solid body nice enough sound beautiful action but dire sustain.

Maybee I should just play 3/4 size guitars but they make me feel like a giant... he he come to think of it i'm going to buy one straight away.

Doctor J

feylya wrote:

It's a good suggestion but if the string is in tune at the open and 12th positions, it's doubtful it's the magnetic pull.

What is the action set like at the moment? High or low?

Bah, just had time to read this one. Pickups do kill intonation, especially passive ones with stronger magnets, as most strat players will tell you. If the pickups are too close they make the upper register sound limp and out of tune. It kills the sustain and even though it might be intonated ok when you get past the 15th fret or so it just sounds badly wrong. I have seen it myself many times, therefore I know it to be true... if the universe is in a state of equilibrium that is