Recent deportations and public opinion

ArthurDent

At the risk of opening a can of worms, the following has been puzzling me...

There seems to be huge amount of positive feedback on the Nigerian student being returned to sit his exams. There is also a lot of support for the deported people that had assimilated well into their communities being allowed to remain. The Irish times today has quite a few reports on some of the deportees and how "local" support for them is pressurising the Govt to make further u-turns. So where we these people when the referendum was held last year? I'm just puzzled how local positive experiences can bring about the protest we have seen in the past couple of weeks and yet last year the whole citizenship referendum was hijacked by claims that we would be overrun by the asylum seekers if we didn't pass it. And I know that asylum seekers (and keeping the out )wasn't the reason behind the referendum - but a majority of people polled afterwards thought was what it was about (IIRC).

Is it a small minority that feel strongly about these high profile cases? Do people feel that the way we handle all asylum seekers is unfair?

I've been puzzling over this lately - if we are going to have an asylum system that works we need to assess their claims very quickly so that these situations do not arise, but does that mean an internment style system? Is there any model in any other country that works well?

Mods, apologies upfront if this degenerates into a rehashing of the rights and wrongs of the citizenship referendum again.

Sand

Is it a small minority that feel strongly about these high profile cases? Do people feel that the way we handle all asylum seekers is unfair?

Its not too hard to reconcile.

People dont like feeling that they or their laws are being exploited - hence the tightening up on the citizenship laws, because rightly or wrongly, a lot of people believed people claiming to be asylum seekers were "timing" their baby delivery to ensure theyd be born in Ireland, an EU country, and thus be an EU citizen who couldnt be deported.

On the other hand, people do respect/admire immigrants who are contributing/making an effort/whatever - i.e. who they believe arent exploiting them.

Trying to argue that this particular case was found to be unfair, thus people must believe all cases of failed asylum bids or deportations are unfair is a stretch though lobby groups having been trying. What this country badly needs is a proper immigration system, so that people are not encouraged to abuse the asylum system - discrediting that system in the eyes of voters.

dathi1

Its hard to tell. I think when it comes down to it some people locally reacted on a humane basis. But on the back of it there also were open borders and pro immigration groups like "Residents Against Racism", The Solicialst Party, The Socialist Workers Party, The Refugee Council of Ireland, Joan Burton, Joe Higgins, The Immigration council of Ireland and of course the Teachers Union Of Ireland (hence the students doing what they're told). The Irish Times makes no bones about its pro Multicultural agenda with Fintan everything Irish is Crap O'Toole etc. I suspect McDowell is playing the humane card to soften the hard image...how he gets around the end of the 6 month permit will be interesting.

pedantus

dathi1 wrote:

Its hard to tell. I think when it comes down to it some people locally reacted on a humane basis.

Very true. The probelm is that the minions of the management carried out their or more so our policy. Only to be shouted atand corrected because they did so without predjudice.

It would be better to have a proper immigration system in order rather than a proper deportation system.

Common sense.

mike65

Common sense is surely the watch phase, the student being only a few months from exams clearly (in my mind) should be allowed stay and any others in the same situation.

how he gets around the end of the 6 month permit will be interesting.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0325/2760294122HM1LEAD.html

Its much harder to say "kick em out" if you happen to know one of them. Is that a contradiction or just being human?

Some figuers were mentioned during the week about "exceptional cases" who are given residence. The numbers in some EU countires is in the thousands, here its less than 100 last year.

The sytem is still an unweidly mess, its staggering there are ppl waiting for 6-8 years without any resolution, when such time as passed I'd have to do the decent thing and grant residence on the grounds the individual is assimiliated and settled and well, resident.

Mike.

the_syco

I'm going to wait a bit. Part of democracy is the will of the people, but I wonder how this will affect future deportations?

MadsL

Interesting that these people have assimilated perfectly, and have found out that the only way to get things done is which TD you know.

Planning applications, parking tickets and now deportation reversals.

McDowell deserved this kick in the crotch, and I wish him many more.

Zombrex

ArthurDent wrote:

So where we these people when the referendum was held last year? I'm just puzzled how local positive experiences can bring about the protest we have seen in the past couple of weeks and yet last year the whole citizenship referendum was hijacked by claims that we would be overrun by the asylum seekers if we didn't pass it.

That is the Irish public for you ... we are up in arms if we feel some unknown external force is threating us, but if a face is put to a problem, someone we can relate to then suddenly we change our minds about the whole thing.

Just look at the X-case ... "abortion is wrong, abortion is a moral outrage blah blah blah", then all of a sudden .. "yeah but we didn't mean 14 year olds..."

We are great at emotive voting (I still feel 99 percent of the Yes campagin in the citizenship ref. didn't actually understand what they were voting for, and what it would stop, a view backed up by some of the posts on Boards.ie in the last few months), and even better and emotive backing down.

We may slag off tabloids like the Sun and the Star but that is the way most people think about issues like this, extreme views and emotions that swing
back and forth.

To quote the Simpsons, "I've said it before and I'll say it again, Democracy doesn't work!"

mike65

Its not new news but ppl may have forgotten about this -

from unison

Second chance for 30,000 asylum seekers


MORE than 30,000 non-EU Nationals, mainly asylum seekers, are being allowed to stay in Ireland under an amnesty declared by Justice Minister Michael McDowell.

It will give a fresh chance to the non-EU parents of children born in the country before this year.

The deadline for the receipt of applications runs out in three days time, on March 31, and already the Department of Justice has received 15,500 applications from parents of Irish-born children.

When all parents and children are factored into the equation in each application, the Department of Justice estimates upwards of 30,000 people will be granted residency. "In the majority of cases, they are asylum seekers," a spokesperson for Mr McDowell confirmed yesterday.

A backlog of more than 15,000 residency claims has built up since a Supreme Court decision two years ago that parents were not entitled to remain here on the basis of having an Irish-born child.

Those granted residency will be allowed to work and open businesses in the country without needing work permits or special permission. Under the once-off scheme, successful applicants will be given permission to remain legally in the country for two years initially. On renewal, this permission may be extended for a further three years, subject to conditions.

The applicants have to seek employment and not be a burden on the State. They are also required to not have a criminal record during that time and also have to clear up any issues relating to identity or documentation.

"They will be expected to make every effort to become economically viable during this period," the Department of Justice states.

The overwhelming majority of the 3,000 applications processed so far have been accepted by the department.

Last year's Citizenship Referendum resulted in a redefinition of Irish citizenship. Now the non-national parents of Irish-born children have to be resident in the country for three of the previous five years before the birth for the child to be granted citizenship.

This means children born in the State to non-national parents after January 1, 2005 no longer have automatic Irish citizenship rights.

The Department of Justice extended the deadline for the acceptance of documents accompanying residency applications for non-national parents of Irish-born children 10 days ago.

The extension followed major delays at the Nigerian Embassy in providing passports to its citizens seeking to remain in Ireland, which resulted in protests outside the Embassy in Ballsbridge, Dublin.

When he announced the scheme in January, Mr McDowell warned people not normally resident in the country with their child should not expect to be granted residence. He also said those who were successful in their applications would not be allowed to bring family members from abroad to join them.

I part I high-lighted is strange policy, sound to me like way of keeping pressure off the ministers back from those hostile to this inititive now. Then after 5 years ppl can quietly be given status to stay full time without it causing a mighty fuss.

Mike.

the_syco

This means children born in the State to non-national parents after January 1, 2005 no longer have automatic Irish citizenship rights.

So it has been finalized, has it? Thats good. The 15,500 children (I wonder how many per year that works out to be) get a once-off deal for Irish citizenship. 15,500 proberly works out to 7,250, as it says "15,500 applications from parents of Irish-born children", and if it were one child per souple, thats where the 30,000 figure proberly comes from.

He also said those who were successful in their applications would not be allowed to bring family members from abroad to join them.

This is good. "Family members" would be the grandparents, uncles, aunties, etc that the child wouldn't be able to live without.

Now the non-national parents of Irish-born children have to be resident in the country for three of the previous five years before the birth for the child to be granted citizenship.

Basically says that those who came over just so that their child could be born in Ireland, won't get citizenship, but those who were living here at the ime of the childs birth will get it.

=-=

All in all, its rather nice. I'll look at it closer later, but I can't see any complaints I have with it at the moment.

MadsL

This is good. "Family members" would be the grandparents, uncles, aunties, etc that the child wouldn't be able to live without.

I hate to use the t**** word, but this lives under a bridge, right?

Ten

This website is a worthless open border fundamentalist talkshop thanks to the bias 'moderation'. (i.e. the banning of border control advocates on the most spurious of grounds).

The vast majority of people in this Country oppose asylum abuse AND, to lesser degree, mass immigration in all its forms (legal and illegal)

They understand its consequences and those who desire mass immigration know this too and do their upmost to to override the popular will and impose it anyhow.


This they do with the useful 'leftist' ,'anti-globalist' idiots to act as their censors , bullies and in some cases bootboys.


For the benefit of multi-nationals and international Capital the Country is left with its borders wide open and when a nominal attempt at immigration control enforcement is made the Capitalist media do their upmost to throw a spanner in the works.

McDowell is no more anti-immigration than most of you clowns. But unlike you clowns he is smart enough in knowing how to enable it by apppering to be in control of the situation.

THe emergence of an strong Vlaams Blok- Front National type Party is on the cards in this Country with a decade.

sceptre

Ten wrote:

This website is a worthless open border fundamentalist talkshop

Oh good lord here we go again. Find me a single poster who's advocated open borders here ever, there's a good chap and don't do a straw man on an aging thread.

thanks to the bias 'moderation'. (i.e. the banning of border control advocates on the most spurious of grounds).

Yes, that's it, we're oppressing you. Take that bit to the Feedback board as that's where it belongs. Don't waste your time on worthless fundamentalist websites. Call all the other users clowns again and you'll get a ban on entirely non-spurious grounds.

Zombrex

Ten wrote:

bias 'moderation'. (i.e. the banning of border control advocates on the most spurious of grounds).

The only people who have ever been banned from Politics with reguard to asylum threads are people who broke the rules of the board by posting statements that were not backed up by evidence (example asylum seekers get 200 euro a week, there are 150,000 illegal asylum seekers in Ireland etc etc)

If you lie on the politics board to back up your opinino you will get banned. Simple as that.

Ten wrote:

The vast majority of people in this Country oppose asylum abuse AND, to lesser degree, mass immigration in all its forms (legal and illegal)

Statements like that are the type I am talking about above.

I very much doubt you have any idea what the "vast majority" of people in Ireland think about immigration, legal or otherwise.

Blub2k4

Ten wrote:

This website is a worthless open border fundamentalist talkshop thanks to the bias 'moderation'. (i.e. the banning of border control advocates on the most spurious of grounds).

Such a worthless site that you are on at least your third identity, arcadegame.
Shouldn't that name be "eighteen" and not "ten"?

bonkey

Ten wrote:

This website is a worthless open border fundamentalist talkshop thanks to the bias 'moderation'. (i.e. the banning of border control advocates on the most spurious of grounds).

Youtold us all of this a month ago.

Now you're resurrecting a fortnight-old thread just to tell us again?

I see.

<shrug>

Well, lets do this then.....

The vast majority of people in this Country oppose asylum abuse AND, to lesser degree, mass immigration in all its forms (legal and illegal)

Lets just pretend that you actually have some sort of factual basis for this....

What do you mean by mass immigration? Would it be 100 ppl from the same country coming here? 1,000? 1,000,000?

Or does it matter that its frmo the same country? Is your objection that we're just letting too many John Q Foreigner's into our beloved little island, and it doesn't matter where they're from, or why they're here.

They understand its consequences

Why don't you explain those consequence to us? Explain how the economic migrants tthat companies like Dell went so far as to aggressivly import to meet job demand is a bad thing for the country. Please?

This they do with the useful 'leftist' ,'anti-globalist' idiots to act as their censors , bullies and in some cases bootboys.

No doubt some do. The anti-immigration "side" has its share of bullies, bootboys, and so on as well, so its not like either side has a monopoly on either stupidity or unacceptable behaviour. And like most issues, there are people on both sides able to eloquently and intelligently rationalise their arguments, explain their reasoning, defend their point of view without belittling those who believe otherwise, and so on.

Care to show us which camp you fall into (although I'd suggest you may have already nailed your colours to the mast).

and when a nominal attempt at immigration control enforcement is made the Capitalist media do their upmost to throw a spanner in the works.

I guess its perspective. I saw our media highlighting a situation where bad policy coupled with bad implementation had combined to produce a bad outcome. What I took away from it is no more than a reinforecement of my long-held belief that we desperately need to improve our system regardless of how open or closed our borders are at any given time.

A system and how well it functions is effectively independant of the limits we choose at any point to implement under said system. What the paper highlighted was that we need a properly working system, not that our limits are in the wrong place.

McDowell is no more anti-immigration than most of you clowns. But unlike you clowns he is smart enough in knowing how to enable it by apppering to be in control of the situation.

And you wonder why people such as yourself get banned? Maybe its because in your fervency to defend your beliefs you believe that you are not (or should not be) subject to the rules that define what is acceptable here?

I wouldn't bet on it. Gandalf and the others have no sense of humour in that regard.

THe emergence of an strong Vlaams Blok- Front National type Party is on the cards in this Country with a decade.

Excellent. Some proper extremists are exactly what the public needs to swing them away from the xenophobic/racist trends which are becoming more prevalent in Irish society. I await the day with eagerness.

jc

mike65

Ten, I reckon if the Immigration Control Platform and Justin Barret could'nt raise more than a shrug from voters then there is'nt much scope for a true far right party* in this state.

Mike.

*And no the PDs are not that party!*

sceptre

mike65 wrote:

*And no the PDs are not that party!*

They could be though if they tried just a little harder:p

tim3115

Excellent. Some proper extremists are exactly what the public needs to swing them away from the xenophobic/racist trends which are becoming more prevalent in Irish society. I await the day with eagerness.

Racist trends? Always playing the race card. No matter what. Brits a race of people? The Americans a race of people? I've often heard so called 'hurtful' things mentioned about these two countries, but not a single racist remark is made. But, oh, if someone was to say 'X' about something in Nigeria - straight away, you're a racist. Always the same...

Ireland needs a right wing party, personally, I feel the support would be there for it. A party which promotes Irish culture, heritage, language, and so on. Which is totally against diversification. Which will provide for the Irish people. For the elderly Irish.

billy the squid

Probably because the Brittish or American people you heard "hurtful" remarks about were white. calling someone an english **** is no different than calling them a black **** in my opinion, its still wrong and shouldnt be tolerated.

But, oh, if someone was to say 'X' about something in Nigeria - straight away, you're a racist. Always the same...

depends on what you consider hurtful really. If i were to say the english or americans have a fettish about bombing other countries, then a brittish or american person might find that hurtful, can you think of something equally hurtful about nigerians that doesn't involve the colour of their skin. maybe 419 scams, they are freely discussed and no one is accused of being a racist for discussing them.

Ireland needs a right wing party,

you mean mary harney and her trained monkeys isnt bad enough?

Ireland needs a right wing party, personally, I feel the support would be there for it. A party which promotes Irish culture, heritage, language, and so on. Which is totally against diversification. Which will provide for the Irish people. For the elderly Irish.

Our irish population is ageing, it wont be long before the irish people working will not be able to support things like Old age pensions, the only way we can keep this system afloat would be to allow workers from other countries in to pay tax on their incomes.

In the here an now the number at the bottom of the live register is six digits long. if al these irish would get up off their arses and work then employers would not have to seek workers in other countries.

tim3115

In the here an now the number at the bottom of the live register is six digits long. if al these irish would get up off their arses and work then employers would not have to seek workers in other countries.

Sorry, I'm just sick of this tired old 'arguement'. The figure looks well for the lefties. What it doesn't reveal is the number of people 'let off', and today we've had another bunch of people who will fall in to that category.

How can Irish people find jobs where the work the they are willing to do is already occupied by someone from another country who doesn't mind the low wages? Irish people cannot afford to work jobs who offer pathetic wages. Whats more, employers know right well that they can find cheaper labour than the Irish labour force. So don't give me that 'Irish workers are too lazy to get up and find a job' crap. Of course, there are a certain number of people that fall in to that category, but you painted a pretty pathetic picture.

Another thing, I know of a building contractor who decided to let go his loyal Irish workers so that he could employ cheaper Eastern European labour. You're telling me that they're the lazy ones? After working X number of years with the same employer? Foreigners don't mind the lower wages as it's worth a lot more over in their own country when they return. Irish workers have to try and live in a country with massive living costs and so on...

tim3115

Anyone want to add anything?

ArthurDent

tim3115 wrote:

Foreigners don't mind the lower wages as it's worth a lot more over in their own country when they return. Irish workers have to try and live in a country with massive living costs and so on...

Do these foreigners over here stealing our jobs/wimmin (delete as appropriate) not have to live here too and pay the same rent, buy the same food etc - just wondering?

billy the squid

How can Irish people find jobs where the work the they are willing to do is already occupied by someone from another country who doesn't mind the low wages? Irish people cannot afford to work jobs who offer pathetic wages. Whats more, employers know right well that they can find cheaper labour than the Irish labour force. So don't give me that 'Irish workers are too lazy to get up and find a job' crap.

one of the pitfalls of the PPF, increased wages have made everything Irish more expensive.

The minimum wage will be around €7.70 from may 1st. that by 37.5 hours is a lot more than the dole. any company paying less than that to anyone whether they are foreigners or Irish is breaking the law. there are exceptions to this, but nationality is not one of them.

Of course, there are a certain number of people that fall in to that category, but you painted a pretty pathetic picture.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/2004/lrabda_april2004.pdf

April 2004 were the latest figures I could find on the CSO site It shows that 47,000 people have been on the dole for a year or longer. the figure of long term unemployed could be higher, as the Department of Social Community and Family Affairs refer people to FAS to either go on schemes, do courses, or find work after six months of being on unemployment benefit

tim3115

47,000 , maybe so. These people are useless to us anyways.

The point I was making was that the original poster said that it was a 6 digit figure.

billy the squid

the entire live register is a six digit figure, around 100,000

tim3115

Yes, but are all those lazy as he was making out? Of course not.


You must remember that a good few thousand are working as well.

johnnyboy4711

Returned from New Zealand to find this out!
there is going to be inbalance in Ireland until Irish people are treated as equals in there own country! At the moment it seems that anyone that decides to come into ireland have a couple of kids gets a housing allowance before irish people who have been on the waiting list for years!
Thus relying on the Irish sense of patience!
this is wrong!
Am I incorrect?
Its a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,throw TAXPAYERS money at it and it will be fine!
Having previously worked for the past 5 years in a number of countries(Australia,New Zealand,America and the UK)I am amazed to see how the issue is being dealt with here!
After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.
A basic point winner in NZ is English,maybe they should tally all applicants for a change and not say or your so-and-so's husband,wife whatever and we do not have a translator at the mo, but heres you new house,your neighbours had to pay €250,000,but not you!

As for the road network!?!

A Irish citizen and tax contributor,
johnnyboy4711

johnnyboy4711

I think also that there will be a right-wing movement in Ireland very soon if things keep going the way they are going!
Not only that but what about the ex-russian mafia,it will be like butlins when they find out that the cops dont carry guns!
and now that they can "visit "whenever they like!
Look out criminals everywhere cos these boys will make you look like choirboys!