Timber frame house with solid concrete floors upstairs

sas

Wondering if its possible to build a 2 storey timber frame house and still have solid concrete floors upstairs.

Obviously anything is possible given enough money but I was wondering if this is straight forward or not.

disgruntled

Is there any particular reason why you want a concrete floor on the first floor? Typically in domestic construction concrete is usually only used at ground floor, upper floors are normally constructed in timber both in masonary and timber framed houses.

Alun

disgruntled wrote:

Is there any particular reason why you want a concrete floor on the first floor? Typically in domestic construction concrete is usually only used at ground floor, upper floors are normally constructed in timber both in masonary and timber framed houses.

Well, in Ireland and the UK it seems common to have wooden floors on the upper floors, but not in other countries, so it is possible at least for masonry framed houses. Mind you there are plenty of other differences too.

kadman

sas wrote:

Wondering if its possible to build a 2 storey timber frame house and still have solid concrete floors upstairs.

Obviously anything is possible given enough money but I was wondering if this is straight forward or not.

Why. I'd be interested to know your particular reason for this type of arrangement.

I assume you want the speed of build of a timberframe house, and the solidness of a concrete house.

Or maybe your thinking of the sound insulation qualities of concrete floors, that can be achieved with a screed , without having to go for solid concrete at floor levels.

The answer to your question is yes, but by the time you put in all steel support for the floor support steel , to take the hollow core concrete floor , you would effectively have a steel framed house, with timber stud infils.

Why not go for a steel framed house from the outset, or alternatively go for a concrete moduled frame build. Concrete panels delivered to site, and erected like timberframe panels.

kadman

yop

Lad I am doing a TF house and am putting UFH upstairs, what I am doing is putting down a 25mm Kingspan, pipes laid on top of that and 25mm light screed on top of that.
Just told my TF company about it and they have put in the required supports to handle any extra stress

kadman

yop wrote:

25mm light screed on top of that.
Just told my TF company about it and they have put in the required supports to handle any extra stress

Hi Yop,

I think SAS is talking about solid concrete floors, not a screed.
Or maybe he means a screed. He might clarify it for us thiough.

Even with a screed , the tf company had to install additional supports, so solid concrete floors, would effectively turn a tf kit into a beam and column arrangement, possibly.

kadman

yop

Ya Kadman you could be right, but personally if you want to have hollow core or the like then you may as well go the block route from start.

Personally and hey I could be wrong I think that with the setup I have it should really increase the sound barrier from upstairs.

Has anyone actually ever come across the setup of UFH on OSB as I have setup for our hut before? Soz for hijacking ur thread lad!

kadman

Yeah Yop, I agree with you there.

I think your setup would definitely improve your sound insulating qualities.

As you say if you'e going concrete, go all the way. Very awkward to take the pluses of the two different builds, and combine them.

Then again necessity is the mother of invention. ( or is it the mutha of all fec up's)

You might get some direction here,


http://www.selfbuild123.co.uk/construction.htm

kadman

yop

Cheers lad,
Now time to get to the cot, block walls to be built tomorrow in the heat, the life

YAPP

Just to mention a system of build seen recently to bring down
noise transfer.

Not actually a compartment floor, but with some of the materials.
OPTIONS FOR ALTERNATIVE TO CONC FLOORS:
(1) Compartment floor from Top Down:
Floor Covering (timber/tiles/carpet/etc) on
Acoustic battens (50x38mm with 12.5mm sponge layer on bottom) glued on
19mm plank plasterboard layed on
18mm Plywood on
9"x2" joisting filled with
100mm glassfibre insulation with
ceiling make up of 19mm plank p/b over
12.5mm plain plasteboard.
THIS GIVES ONE HOUR FIRE PROTECTION AND BETTER SOUND PERFORMANCE THAN CONC FLOORS. (open to correction)
or
(2) Similar make up, with out accoustic battens.
Floor Covering (timber/tiles/carpet/etc) on
19mm plank plasterboard layed on
18mm Plywood on
9"x2" joisting filled with
100mm glassfibre insulation over
12.5mm plain plasteboard.

Beats expense of conc h/core floors and can be achieved in
both tf+sf and block.

YAPP

galwaydude18

I would have deep reservations about putting hollowcore on a timber frame house! These hollowcore slabs weigh a ton and you have to have a crane to lift them into place! You need to substantially increase the strength of the frame! you would more than likely need to strengthen it by using steel beams and steel coloums to hold it up! You would end up with a lot more steal in the ground floor plan! I have worked in an architects office for the last 5 - 6 years and have never ever heard such an insane proposal as to put hollowcore on top of a timber frame! I doubt you would even get an engineer to certify that especially if you have or are getting a loan from the bank etc. to finance this! You would need to advice of a structrual engineer for this and they would be the best people to talk to about this but I reckon myself and from experience that you will not get any company, builder or anyone else to carry out putting hollowcore on a timber frame house!

kadman

If sound insulation requirements are guiding you in yiur decision, then have a look here,


http://www.howarth-timber.co.uk/timbeng_sile.php.

The general consensus is you would be unwise to use solid concrete floors on timberframe, which I totally agree on. The only builder I think that would attempt it would be O'Reilly's men out of " Fawlty Towers ".

kadman

sas

Didn't expect this much activity over the weekend!

Anyway, looking into building at the moment. Trying to get a feel for the noise and heat considerations.

Ok, was always under the impression that as a general rule timber frame is better insulated and hence warmer than traditional block build.

As for the solid concrete floors upstairs, it is as someone suggested to do with noise. Have been in a few homes recently with them and was very impressed with them.

I was wondering it there was a best of both worlds solution.

I didn't think it sounded all that feasible but I ain't a builder so I couldn't be sure.

Thanks for the feedback.

galwaydude18

well I would recommend building the house with blocks any day of the week! If you want more thermal insulation you could always dry line the walls inside the house but that will substantially add to your building cost!

Wobs

Hi,

Check out www.rbmh.com. This is a insulated concrete form (icf). You have the speed of tf, its stronger than blocks, higher insulation than both and very low noise levels.

Im seriously considering this system, the only drawback is it is relatively new to Ireland and its hard to get feedback. I have gone to look at a few houses built this way and they look really good. The company above have said they can have the walls up, first floor and roof on in 2 weeks.

Its been widely used in the States and Europe for years so there is plenty of info out there, just none to specific to Ireland.

Alun

Wobs wrote:

Hi,

Check out www.rbmh.com. This is a insulated concrete form (icf). You have the speed of tf, its stronger than blocks, higher insulation than both and very low noise levels.

Im seriously considering this system, the only drawback is it is relatively new to Ireland and its hard to get feedback. I have gone to look at a few houses built this way and they look really good. The company above have said they can have the walls up, first floor and roof on in 2 weeks.

Its been widely used in the States and Europe for years so there is plenty of info out there, just none to specific to Ireland.

We lived in a house built in this way in Holland. As far as I could see the only problems were that you are pretty much stuck with things like power points and light fittings being where they are since all the conduit etc. is pre-installed when the sections are cast. Also, you have to get the hammer drill out even to hang up the smallest of paintings:) Common practice in Holland with regard to pipe work was quite different (central heating pipes exposed, waste pipes etc. internal to the house, not on the outside etc.) so I don't know how any designs that were made for the European market would transfer over here.

Other than that it was great. Our heating bill was way lower for that house (at 262 m3) than our 4 bed (approx 110m3) bungalow here in Ireland, and that was for a house that was built in 1986, so given modern insulation techniques it could be even better.

YAPP

Couldnt recommend tf more myself, but thats only my opinion.

Building one at the moment, great insulating properties.
Sound not an issue, as we are putting rockwool into the
celing of the GF void.

This was not part of the kit supply, but for damn all extra it cover
you for soundrating.

If you want to really up the noise transfer, you could install a
'compartment floor' detail as mentioned earlier; still far more
cost effective than the conc hollowcore...!

YAPP

Wobs

Hi Alun,

I would only use it for the exterior walls, it is solid concrete so any changes once its done are hard to change. With regards to electrics you simply chase the insulation like you would block work and use conduit. You can install certain things prior to pouring the concrete if your sure you won't be needing to get at them. (don't think there is too many things I'd be happy about leaving incased in concrete though)

Like all methods of building there are pros and cons, you just have to be sure you know them all and make sure it suits your needs.

Alun

Wobs wrote:

I would only use it for the exterior walls, it is solid concrete so any changes once its done are hard to change. With regards to electrics you simply chase the insulation like you would block work and use conduit. You can install certain things prior to pouring the concrete if your sure you won't be needing to get at them. (don't think there is too many things I'd be happy about leaving incased in concrete though)

All water, c.h. and gas pipes were external to the cast concrete walls. Only power and lighting conduits were pre-installed. Waste pipes went down a corner of the main (spiral) stair case inside a casing. Easy to get at if you needed to.

Dutch houses tend to be fairly open-plan, especially on the ground floor. The only walls we had there, except for the outer walls, were the ones for the hallway and downstairs loo. On the first floor there was a mixture of concrete walls and stud walls, and the top floor, stud walls only.

I wouldn't personally like to have been the person chasing these walls to accept conduits after the fact ... I went through two semi-professional hammer drills just drilling holes for pictures and shelves in the time I was there

delly

My 2 cents worth ---->

My brother has built a steel frame house which is about 4,000-5,000 sq ft. He has poured concrete for the first floor. I remember when he was building it, there was what appeared to be massive sheets of aeroboard between the bricks and the frame of the house. The house is remarkably hot for the size of it, and heats up very quickly when the heating (oil) is switched on

kadman

Here is a link to an Irish manufacturer of precast modular housing. These concrete panels are delivered and assembled much the same as in a tf build,


http://www.concast.ie/

kadman