Terrorist "Military action" versus "Criminal actions"

Gir

Once again terrorists in NornIron show their duplicity?

If it is not enough that IRA members continue in their criminal activities while the IRA itself is laying laying claim to being part of the peace process it now seems that loyalist Paramilitaries members are also continuing in criminal activities.

Link

Two accused of extortion bid
24/03/2005
16:04:12

Two Belfast men appeared in court today charged with attempting to extort money from a building site for loyalist paramilitaries.

Brian Gould, (aged 37), of Walnut Street in the Donegall Pass area of Belfast and Stephen Boyd, also (aged 37), of Vernon Street in the Donegall Pass area, both denied the charges, Belfast Magistrates Court heard.

The two men were charged with demanding £2,000 (€2,885) with menaces between January 31 and March 22 this year.

They were further charged at between the same dates of inviting another person to provide money that may be used for terrorist purposes.

The offences are alleged to have taken place at a building site in Maryville Street in the Donegall Pass area.

A detective constable told the court that when charged Boyd replied: “I am innocent of all charges.”

Gould replied: “No.”

The officer told the court he believed he could connect both men to the charges.

The defendants were remanded in custody for four weeks to reappear at the same court.

Without wanting to see a thread descending into the usual rubbish that most threads on NornIron descended to here, what I was wondering was if this typical criminal behaviour that seems to be part and parcel of the paramilitary organisations should be left as it is, to one side, while proper peace negotiations continue? Unless proved to be an action scantioned by their Military commands?

I think it is fair to say that if either the IRA or LVF or even the British army were to be continuing in Military operations it could then be said that their claims to be seeking peace were rubbish.

But this constant stream of individuals who are up to criminal activity....may well be just that. Criminals.

With the generic make up of these organisations it is within the confines of belief that there are some bad people involved or even used.

But my question once again would be whether criminal activity, be it bank robberies, extortion, joyriding or what ever that is engaged in by members of these organisations for what ever purposes, an activity I might add that is actually branded "criminal activity" by the security forces, should be dealt with under those terms and not used to stall the peace process?

Perhaps a moving forward in the process itself would lead to the establishment of conditions where criminal activity would be seen as just that and not another excuse to stall the process?

Sand

Perhaps a moving forward in the process itself would lead to the establishment of conditions where criminal activity would be seen as just that and not another excuse to stall the process?

Perhaps moving forwards whilst terrorists mould themselves into out and out criminal mafias will only serve to legitimise those mafias and make them untouchable? After all these mafias will control the police and pass the laws? The corruption of democratic institutions by these scumbags has to be confronted - either now, or later when the scumbags will be in control of the institutions. Which gives a better chance of saving democratic government in Northern Ireland? When the scumbags are already in power what incentive do they have to give up their night shift activities?

What you advise is practically surrender of standards and principles to serve the terrorists/criminals. This is attitude that has led us to this mess and derailed the peace proccess and pissed away the credibility of the "peace proccess" in the eyes of those who voted for it.

Gir

I merely suggest we look beyond things like calling people "scum bags" and criminals when we are refering to political people.

Sand wrote:

What you advise is practically surrender of standards and principles to serve the terrorists/criminals. This is attitude that has led us to this mess and derailed the peace proccess and pissed away the credibility of the "peace proccess" in the eyes of those who voted for it.

Actually you are not worth debating this topic with. I asked that we separate the criminals from the “terrorists”

My attitude has not derailed the peace process. It has brought if forward to were it is today.

You on the other hand seem to be slightly engrained or indoctrinated in your views.

I would say you sir have p1ssed away the peace process. But not enough so that people like me can get it back on track.

Villain

Heres another loyalist boy who has been hitting the news today:

Man's assets frozen by NI Assets Recovery Agency
24/03/2005 - 07:14:17

Assets which include nearly 50 properties have been frozen as part of a major investigation into the affairs of an alleged Northern Ireland-based drugs dealer, it was revealed today.

Colin Armstrong, who lives with his partner at a luxury home at Glenavy, Co Antrim also owns apartments in the south of France and Dublin.

His properties, worth an estimated £4.8m (€6.9m), are now under the control of an interim receiver appointed by the High Court in Belfast.

It followed an 18-month long undercover investigation and the biggest by the Assets Recovery Agency (ARA) headed by its Northern Ireland assistant director Alan McQuillan, since it was set up in February 2003.

Armstrong, aged 38, who has alleged links with the paramilitary Loyalist Volunteer Force, has been investigated several times by police probing drugs smuggling, but has never been charged because of insufficient evidence.

Two of his companies and eight personal and company bank accounts have also been frozen.

Northern Ireland Office security minister Ian Pearson said: “This is another significant action by the ARA and clearly indicates the agency’s commitment to deprive criminals of their profits.”

Armstrong lives at Tullynewbank Road with his partner Geraldine Mallon who is also a director of some of the companies, and who held some of the assets in her own name, according to the ARA.

The High Court in Belfast, where an order was granted to freeze the assets, was told that Armstrong was allegedly linked to drug trafficking between Belgium and Northern Ireland in 1994 and was also involved in importation and selling of drugs over a period of years.

At first he had links with the Ulster Volunteer Force and then sided with the LVF after the organisation split in Mid Ulster where Armstrong owns most of his properties.

His apartment in the south of France is situated on the Cote D’Azure, according to the agency.

The receiver, who has not been named, will carry out a full independent investigation into Armstrong affairs before submitting a report to the High Court.

He purports to own a number of companies, on both sides of the Irish border, including two identified as Modern Homes (NI) Ltd and Tudor Road Properties Ltd, and as part of their inquires the ARA worked closely with the Criminal Assets Bureau in the Republic where he was also linked with car dealerships.

Documents have also been seized.

Armstrong will be allowed to continue living at his Glenavy home, but none of his properties can be sold off.

The receiver will examine all his bank accounts and question Armstrong as part of the investigation.

Even though he can carry on running his companies, rent from his properties will have to be paid into accounts under the receiver’s control. Armstrong’s living expenses must also be agreed.

Mr McQuillan said: “We are alleging he was dealing in all types of illegal drugs. In the case of Ms Mallon, we have simply alleged that she is Mr Armstrong’s partner, that she holds some of the assets in her own name, and that she is a director of some of the companies.”

But loyalist's don't get too much of a mention here, I mean all the posters on here worry about are the republicans, there is two sides to ever story.

Gir

irish1 wrote:

Heres another loyalist boy who has been hitting the news today:

But loyalist's don't get too much of a mention here, I mean all the posters on here worry about are the republicans, there is two sides to ever story.

How dare you make a statement commenting on people against "shinners" when you make a post like that.

"loyalist boy"?

The thing about holding a mirror infront of people is thats its best if you dont stand in front of it.

gets in the way of the reflection



:rolleyes:

Villain

Gir wrote:

How dare you make a statement commenting on people against "shinners" when you make a post like that.

"loyalist boy"?

:rolleyes:

well he is a loyalist isn't he??

jbkenn

irish1 wrote:

Heres another loyalist boy who has been hitting the news today:

But loyalist's don't get too much of a mention here, I mean all the posters on here worry about are the republicans, there is two sides to ever story.

We dont have much experience of Loyalist scumbags where I live in the Republic, however we do have plenty of experience of Sinn Fein/IRA scumbags.
So for the benefit of all the Sinn Fein supporters here, let me congratulate the ARA on exposing this particular scumbag, may they leave him destitute and nail his ar$e to the gate, and let it be a warning to all other "paramilitary" scumbags of what potentially lies ahead for them.
Interestingly

and as part of their inquires the ARA worked closely with the Criminal Assets Bureau in the Republic where he was also linked with car dealerships.

you have got to love the way these guys dont let their politics get in the way of business, I wonder what "loyalists" he was dealing with down here.

jbkenn

Villain

jbkenn wrote:

We dont have much experience of Loyalist scumbags where I live in the Republic, however we do have plenty of experience of Sinn Fein/IRA scumbags.
So for the benefit of all the Sinn Fein supporters here, let me congratulate the ARA on exposing this particular scumbag, may they leave him destitute and nail his ar$e to the gate, and let it be a warning to all other "paramilitary" scumbags of what potentially lies ahead for them.
Interestingly

you have got to love the way these guys dont let their politics get in the way of business, I wonder what "loyalists" he was dealing with down here.

jbkenn

Well jbkenn most of what has been talked about on this forum in relation to SF and the IRA has happened in the North of Ireland.

As for CAB being involved I'd imagine (no proof) this drug dealing ring was selling its product down South, which would mean the CAB would have been able to assist.

gandalf

I think you will find the focus is on the Republican side so much because they are in the Dail, last time I looked at the makeup of our elected politicans in the Republic I didn't see any loyalists in there.

Just imagine thou, because you bought a new "Jam Jar" you may have made a Loyalist Kingpins life better, now theres a nice thought!!! (NOT!)

I actually do not distinguise between terrorists on this island of either side, they are all criminals and need to be dealt with as such. The reason again that I focus on SF/IRA is they are more of a threat to democratic process in the Republic.

Gir

jbkenn wrote:

you have got to love the way these guys dont let their politics get in the way of business, I wonder what "loyalists" he was dealing with down here.

jbkenn

You making a hypothetical pondering not based in fact there per chance?

Hmmm?

Villain

gandalf wrote:

I think you will find the focus is on the Republican side so much because they are in the Dail, last time I looked at the makeup of our elected politicans in the Republic I didn't see any loyalists in there.

Just imagine thou, because you bought a new "Jam Jar" you may have made a Loyalist Kingpins life better, now theres a nice thought!!! (NOT!)

I actually do not distinguise between terrorists on this island of either side, they are all criminals and need to be dealt with as such. The reason again that I focus on SF/IRA is they are more of a threat to democratic process in the Republic.

Well Gandalf if we get the United Ireland that every party in the Dail wants then these loyalist groups will be part of our nation, will you focus on them then??

I can understand why more of a focus is on the Republican side but I think the ratio on this board between discussions on republicans compared to loyalists is tad bit odd.

cdebru

gandalf wrote:

I think you will find the focus is on the Republican side so much because they are in the Dail, last time I looked at the makeup of our elected politicans in the Republic I didn't see any loyalists in there.
.

yes john bruton has resigned his seat

Gir

gandalf wrote:

I think you will find the focus is on the Republican side so much because they are in the Dail, last time I looked at the makeup of our elected politicans in the Republic I didn't see any loyalists in there..

Now you are not very clever are you?

I think you will find that the focus on the repubican side has nothing to do with the Dail.

They have more sway in the north.

But as you said it.....

Provide links and arguments to back that up!

Ill do the links and stats in the north versus south.... if you wish.

gandalf

irish1 wrote:

Well Gandalf if we get the United Ireland that every party in the Dail wants then these loyalist groups will be part of our nation, will you focus on them then??

If they still have an armed criminal element in the background you bet I will. But that day imho is at least 2 generations away.

I can understand why more of a focus is on the Republican side but I think the ratio on this board between discussions on republicans compared to loyalists is tad bit odd.

Thats because this is an mainstream irish board and not a republican one. People in the 26 counties on a whole do not care any more about NI.

Why is this, well using myself as an example. I am 35 years on this earth, for as long as I can remember we hear about all the crap going on North of the Border. Its has been used imho by Politicians down here as an escape from sorting out the actual problems effecting the majority on this island.

"Whats that the health service is a shambles sorry I'm off sorting out the North again"

If people up there cannot sort out their differences then why the hell should we be bothered to get involved.

gandalf

Gir wrote:

Now you are not very clever are you?

Read the charter, I will let you away with that one. Next one you are banned.

I think you will find that the focus on the repubican side has nothing to do with the Dail.

Ok let me spell it out for you. I do not like people in my house of representitives who have a private army standing behind them.

They have more sway in the north.

I do not give a damn about NI.

But as you said it.....

Provide links and arguments to back that up!

Ill do the links and stats in the north versus south.... if you wish.

Knock yourself out. What I am saying is clearly my opinion and one I believe is correct based on the number or lack of conversations I have in daily discourse with my peers, work colleagues about criminals in the Republic.

Villain

gandalf wrote:

If they still have an armed criminal element in the background you bet I will. But that day imho is at least 2 generations away.



Thats because this is an mainstream irish board and not a republican one. People in the 26 counties on a whole do not care any more about NI.

Why is this, well using myself as an example. I am 35 years on this earth, for as long as I can remember we hear about all the crap going on North of the Border. Its has been used imho by Politicians down here as an escape from sorting out the actual problems effecting the majority on this island.

"Whats that the health service is a shambles sorry I'm off sorting out the North again"

If people up there cannot sort out their differences then why the hell should we be bothered to get involved.

Well I don't think you can blaim the north for all our issues down south, certainly a lot of time has been spent on the north but not enought merit the transport and health issues to name just 2. Mind you a SF thread gets a lot more attention here than any health thread ( I've done test )

IMO the reason the north gets so much attention is because the majority of people on this Island want a United Ireland. If you want to examine the issues up north you have to see both sides of the argument, however on boards all we see is the one side and any time a SF voter trys to bring up the unionist's and loyalists we get slated and excused of trying to avoid the issues. I wonder sometimes if the people who post about the North so much actually know what goes on up there at all.

I was going to start a thread this morning about the article I posted but I thought people would just say I was trying to deflect from Sinn Fein. I mean this loyalist has had £5 Million pounds worth of assets seized, thats a lot of criminality.

Gir

gandalf wrote:

I do not give a damn about NI.

Perhaps you might stay away from its politics then and leave that to us.

Sorry for questioning your brain power by the way.
Didnt mean any offence.

Pity you didnt provide link though.

Your conversations or lack of...with your peers count for nothing. For all I know they are retards with one brain cell between them.

Thats why we like links! Is that not correct? Otherwise it just people talking sh1te and voicing opinions and portraying it as fact?

Thats against the rules. I hope you know that.

/me rubs testicles

gandalf

irish1 wrote:

Well I don't think you can blaim the north for all our issues down south, certainly a lot of time has been spent on the north but not enought merit the transport and health issues to name just 2. Mind you a SF thread gets a lot more attention here than any health thread ( I've done test )

No I am saying that its used as a diversionary tactic by the Governments. They used to have divorce but then the prots went and voted that in. Abortion is a good one too but that can be too bruising and unpredictable. But theres always the good old NI question.

IMO the reason the north gets so much attention is because the majority of people on this Island want a United Ireland. If you want to examine the issues up north you have to see both sides of the argument, however on boards all we see is the one side and any to me a SF voter trys to bring up the unionist's and loyalists we get slated and excused of trying to avoid the issues. I wonder sometimes if the people who post about the North so much actually know what goes on up there at all.

Of course we all would like a United Ireland, however I do not want it at the cost of criminals being allowed to carry out their activities with impunity. Also being a realist I understand if the two sides up there cannot get on at the moment then there is no way they will in a united ireland. Until they can sort out their own differences there is no point going on with the Emerald pipe dream.

As for getting slated from bringing something else up as a distraction the only thing that I recall is the SDLP thread at the moment which is a clear case of attempted misdirection.

I was going to start a thread this morning about the article I posted but I thought people would just say I was trying to deflect from Sinn Fein. I mean this loyalist has had £5 Million pounds worth of assets seized, thats a lot of criminality.

Naw please do start them. All terrorists on this island are just criminals. Members of organisations that have long since decended into Mafioso activites.

gandalf

Gir wrote:

Perhaps you might stay away from its politics then and leave that to us.

Sorry for questioning your brain power by the way.
Didnt mean any offence.

Pity you didnt provide link though.

Your conversations or lack of...with your peers count for nothing. For all I know they are retards with one brain cell between them.

Thats why we like links! Is that not correct? Otherwise it just people talking sh1te and voicing opinions and portraying it as fact?

Thats against the rules. I hope you know that.

/me rubs testicles

You were warned now you are banned.

sceptre

irish1 wrote:

Well I don't think you can blaim the north for all our issues down south, certainly a lot of time has been spent on the north but not enought merit the transport and health issues to name just 2.

Oh I don't think anyone's suggesting that NI is actually tearing our politicians away from the job they really want to do but rather that it's occasionally a grown up version of their shouting "look out behind you Mr Journalist!" before cackling and running off. Obviously for those in senior government positions it gets more attention than a local councillor, or at least they probably get regular reports from the civil servants actually doing the lion's share of the running but I doubt it disturbs anywhere near the number of egg and rasher sessions we're occasionally led to believe when questions are posed about health boards and education.

I was going to start a thread this morning about the article I posted but I thought people would just say I was trying to deflect from Sinn Fein.

People would have. Worthy of discussion all the same. As you say,

I mean this loyalist has had £5 Million pounds worth of assets seized, thats a lot of criminality.

Criminality is criminality is criminality. And this is a lot of criminality. With a political or pseudo-political (like the IRA criminality, which it is depends on one's views) background so it's as relevant here as anything or anywhere else.

jbkenn

irish1 wrote:

Well I don't think you can blaim the north for all our issues down south, certainly a lot of time has been spent on the north but not enought merit the transport and health issues to name just 2. Mind you a SF thread gets a lot more attention here than any health thread ( I've done test )

Too much time spent on the North
IMO the reason the north gets so much attention is because the majority of people on this Island want a United Ireland.

IMO most people wanting a United Ireland is simply aspirational, they wont lose any sleep if it does'nt happen for a hundred years.

If you want to examine the issues up north you have to see both sides of the argument, however on boards all we see is the one side and any time a SF voter trys to bring up the unionist's and loyalists we get slated and excused of trying to avoid the issues. I wonder sometimes if the people who post about the North so much actually know what goes on up there at all.

The problem for most people is, they have been examined to death, and people have long gone past the point of caring.

I was going to start a thread this morning about the article I posted but I thought people would just say I was trying to deflect from Sinn Fein. I mean this loyalist has had £5 Million pounds worth of assets seized, thats a lot of criminality.

It surely is, and, I am sure as the ARA expand their activities, more and more paramilitaries on both sides, will start to feel the heat.

jbkenn

uberwolf

on the original topic - the suggestion that we should be able to distinguish between individuals working for their own benefit and a paramilitaries benefit.

Extortion requires a threat to work, a promise of protection from a threat you've created. Individuals aren't capable of such a threat, it requires a group.

As with bank robberies - it takes gangs, experience, arms to carry out - these are only gained through paramilitary links.

I've a modicum of sympathy for military action - in so far as I cann't condemn it anymore than I would condemn military action by a country or state - as long as it's against legitimate targets, other on duty soldiers. This clearly doesn't describe either side in this conflict. However it is impossible for these organisations to fund themselves without resorting to illegal activity.



Funny really that when it was all said and done, these 'soldiers' on both sides were able to lay down arms quicker than they were ever able to stop robbing banks, dealing drugs, etc. etc. Men guided by principle :rolleyes:

cdebru

uberwolf wrote:

on the original topic - the suggestion that we should be able to distinguish between individuals working for their own benefit and a paramilitaries benefit.

Extortion requires a threat to work, a promise of protection from a threat you've created. Individuals aren't capable of such a threat, it requires a group.

As with bank robberies - it takes gangs, experience, arms to carry out - these are only gained through paramilitary links.

I've a modicum of sympathy for military action - in so far as I cann't condemn it anymore than I would condemn military action by a country or state - as long as it's against legitimate targets, other on duty soldiers. This clearly doesn't describe either side in this conflict. However it is impossible for these organisations to fund themselves without resorting to illegal activity.



Funny really that when it was all said and done, these 'soldiers' on both sides were able to lay down arms quicker than they were ever able to stop robbing banks, dealing drugs, etc. etc. Men guided by principle :rolleyes:

are you suggesting that only paramilitary groups carry out bank robberies or people who have gained experience in paramilitary groups if so how come countries that never had paramilitary groups have armed bank robbberies


why would it not be possible for an individual to extort money by creating a threat
I remember a number of years ago where an individual placed glass or something in babyfood and threatened the company that he would do it again unless he was paid a substantial ammount of money

Stabshauptmann

Gir wrote:

Once again terrorists in NornIron show their duplicity?

If it is not enough that IRA members continue in their criminal activities while the IRA itself is laying laying claim to being part of the peace process it now seems that loyalist Paramilitaries members are also continuing in criminal activities.

When ever someobdy from the republican lobby says "what about the loyalists, they are not only doing the same but are in fact worse" someone will reasonably explain how pointless such arguements are since we all know and all agree.
Obviously we dont.

Stabshauptmann

Can someone remember the details of this case:
What I can remember, a guy went into a pub(?) in cork, said he was with the IRA and tried to extort money, long story short he was a fraudster and got charged with impersanating the IRA??

Must have been at least 2 years ago -- would have heard it on RTE

sceptre

cdebru wrote:

why would it not be possible for an individual to extort money by creating a threat
I remember a number of years ago where an individual placed glass or something in babyfood and threatened the company that he would do it again unless he was paid a substantial ammount of money

And that worked out really well for the guy didn't it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/4058955.stm

Yeah, obviously non paramilitaries carry out bank robberies. From the hole in the wall gang to the odd small holdup in Irish banks, it happens all the time. Usually not in an organised fashion for 26 million quid though. That's rather unusual. Unusual enough that the last time a large sum of money was stolen in an armed robbery in the UK (not a bank but a train), they made a number of bad movies about it and Sky are still running specials about one of the main players, presumably featuring his love for Bird's custard. It's not usual. It's not impossible but it's not very possible.

uberwolf

cdebru wrote:

are you suggesting that only paramilitary groups carry out bank robberies or people who have gained experience in paramilitary groups if so how come countries that never had paramilitary groups have armed bank robbberies


why would it not be possible for an individual to extort money by creating a threat
I remember a number of years ago where an individual placed glass or something in babyfood and threatened the company that he would do it again unless he was paid a substantial ammount of money

clearly it's not only paramilitary organisations who are capable of this. But as Martin Cahill discovered, if you're not a paramilitary organisation but are involved in organised crime it's impossible to avoid them forever.

I'm also saying that funding for paramilitary behaviour comes, to a large extent, from criminal activity. So distinguishing between the UVF kneecapping or murdering someone and them peddling drugs is missing the point. One hand feeds the other.

Blub2k4

uberwolf wrote:

clearly it's not only paramilitary organisations who are capable of this. But as Martin Cahill discovered, if you're not a paramilitary organisation but are involved in organised crime it's impossible to avoid them forever.

Martin Cahill was killed by the IRA for collusion with the Loyalist bombing of the Widow Scallans pub on Pearse Street, he was indeed dealing with paramilitaries, just the wrong side, it also conveniently suited the Irish police to pull out on the day he was killed by the IRA as they were unable to use their brand of justice (courts, democracy etc) to catch him.
Cahill was a criminal who took money for the organisation of the getaway cars etc for the loyalist bombers.

A Dub in Glasgo

An incident I might that may have caused the death and injury of hundreds of people on the streets of Dublin. A very brave IRA member was killed as he thwarted the bomb attack.

uberwolf

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A very brave IRA member was killed as he thwarted the bomb attack.

Was he a member of the same IRA that killed hundreds through bomb attacks in the north? Honest to God, why does it matter where the attack was going to happen, he condoned one side doing it. Right fair enough if the story goes as you tell it he didn't have to die that day.

Which is off topic really anyway.


My point was that Cdebru responded with incredulity when it was suggested that paramilitary organisations were involved in criminal activity. I'm simply arguing that subversive behaviour relating to paramilitary funding has to be pursued with the same vigour that you'd expect the authorities to use when seeking bombers, etc. Because the money raised in crime is used to fund bombing, guns, etc. This simply cann't be debated IMO.

*awaits debate*

Blub2k4

uberwolf wrote:

I'm simply arguing that subversive behaviour relating to paramilitary funding has to be pursued with the same vigour that you'd expect the authorities to use when seeking bombers, etc. Because the money raised in crime is used to fund bombing, guns, etc. This simply cann't be debated IMO.

*awaits debate*

Let them catch them and then debate it in a court of law. Your concept however is debatable despite your statement to the contrary, an IRA mans life and actions cannot solely be defined by his membership of this group. If he wishes to, "in his free time" so to speak, go and rob banks then so be it but it doesnt automatically mean that he was fundraising, just applying the unusual skills/knowledge he gleaned from his time in service to his peacetime criminality.
I dont subscribe to this duality but I recognise it, they are after all the same skills, the motivation is the key in my opinion in this case, if you refer to the title of the thread.