Renault 172 - My tale of woe..

dessied

Hey all,

Listen to this tale of woe and if ye can give any feedback or advise I'd be v grateful coz I am soooooooooooooo pissed off.

My partner had a Reno 172 - beauty motor 4 years old, 20K on the clock and a real powerful motor. Two months ago we got it serviced at the same Dublin garage that we bought it from and put it thru the NCT - no problems, straight A's etc.

Then about 3 weeks after the NCT, was driving the car when suddenly without warning the whole thing died. Got it towed back to the garage and after a day or two they tell us a timing belt tensioner went, and as a result the belt snapped and as a result the whole engines ****ed - the garage are talking about 7K damage.

Problem is as its 4 years old, its out of warranty so unlikely reno will do much to help despite the fact it is a car with 20K on the clock and a snapped timing belt. We paid nearly 20K for this 2-3 years ago and now its sitting in a garage for the last 2 months stripped to the hilt with most of the engine shipped back to Reno and doesnt look like we have any comeback.

Anyone had any kind of experience like this and do we have a comeback here ? Any comments, suggestions etc ??

lomb

well i wouldnt have bothered with renault in the first place but since u are stuck now u need to do something. a new used motor is about 400 euro. the cost of fitting it including new timing belt/ tensioner/ water pump will take the cost to 1 grand including the engine. u can have the car towed to the place where its going to be installed for about 150 euro. if u want further information inc where u would buy a motor and have it fitted just write it in the thread. u may have to pay the garage a storage charge which can be 20 euro a day. if i was u i woul have the car towed home immediately and pay for this.

dessied

A reno 172 is a sports edition of the Clio. Its a monster car - 2 litre engine, 172 bhp. Only around 30 or 40 of them in the country from what I know.

The garage arent charging us for storage or a replacement car which we have been using for the last two months. They have sent the engine back to reno who i think have said they'll cover around 10% of the cost though this has to be finalised. The garage are on our side on this one but they are telling us not to be hopeful of much joy from Renault.

Just wish / hope there was some independent body that could turn the screw on them coz a timing belt should last for 40-50K miles, not 20.

Nuttzz

can you prove that the part was defective from Renault? If so its solicitor time

dessied

Wish I could prove it but not sure. The other thing thats strange is that it was shortly after the car was serviced that it fell apart which could indicate the original garage may have done something, but again hard to prove.

Think the owner may try to cut us some kindof deal but we're waiting to meet with him. All we want is the car back and in good working order again coz it was a beauty to drive.

I am appreciating the feedback here ..

lomb

dessied wrote:

Wish I could prove it but not sure. The other thing thats strange is that it was shortly after the car was serviced that it fell apart which could indicate the original garage may have done something, but again hard to prove.

Think the owner may try to cut us some kindof deal but we're waiting to meet with him. All we want is the car back and in good working order again coz it was a beauty to drive.

I am appreciating the feedback here ..

the reality is that renault owe u nothing on the car. the vehicle is out of warranty. the reason they are coming back with figures of 7 grand is they want an easy life (changing oils/ basic servicing) no one wants to repair a valve train. assuming the piston crowns arent damaged too bad, i would have buy 16 valves, and a new cam kit. its easily repairable for under a grand, but renault wont be interested as apart from wanting an easy life they couldnt warrant a repaired cam train. if i was u i would have been looking at having the top end repaired or preferably a used motor as its easier sometimes to just drop a good engine in.

podgeen

I'm not 100% sure of this but do certain manufacturers not guarantee the timing belt on a car, I'm sure the garage said this to me when i asked about the timing belt on the focus i bought. Some to the effect of ford guarantees it to Xmiles so you dont need to change it until then.

As I'm writing this i realise that its probably not going to be of any help to you because if reno did do such a thing the garage would have told you.

It might worth looking into when they recommend you get your timing belt changed, and then maybe talking to your solicitor.

lomb

no they dont gaurantee it. talking to a solicitor is a waste of money. i know for a fact that renault ireland have very poor customer care. some manufacturers will offer a goodwill repair in that they will offer half. renault arent one of them.

also even if they offered half so what the bill would be 3 grand, i could have that engine repaired for under 1k, so i would never have messed with renault. not only that but storage charges acrue from day 1 and he may owe a large amount here unless he has something in writing to say that storage is free. many people have been caught out here. i would recommend towing the car home or towing it to someone who can repair the valvetrain as a 172 motor might be hard to come by.

lomb

dessied wrote:

A reno 172 is a sports edition of the Clio. Its a monster car - 2 litre engine, 172 bhp. Only around 30 or 40 of them in the country from what I know.

The garage arent charging us for storage or a replacement car which we have been using for the last two months. They have sent the engine back to reno who i think have said they'll cover around 10% of the cost though this has to be finalised. The garage are on our side on this one but they are telling us not to be hopeful of much joy from Renault.

Just wish / hope there was some independent body that could turn the screw on them coz a timing belt should last for 40-50K miles, not 20.

yep glad to hear about the storage many many people have been caught out on that one. also im glad the dealer is on ur side. the 10% sounds about right and is just a token gesture. can i ask why u dont consider gettting the top end repaired on the motor?

AMurphy

Out of warranty, is out of warranty, nothing more can be done about it. My sympaties.

20K is more than a bit pre-mature for a belt failure, however you indicated it was the tensioner, true, if it failed and not the belt, teh result is the same. The 1 in a million is possible.
However, given you appear to have the dealer on your side, it might be worth checking if there is/was a history of these failures nd/or any advisories issued to have them replaced asap.

That aside, How damaged is the head and pistons. Depending on the degree of damage it may be possible to rebuild the heads for a few hundred €.
the alternative is pop a used engine in there or get a re-manufactured long block. With some skill, you should be able to get going for maybe $2K.

camarobill

thats not much of a garage if it didnt change the pre tensioner with the timein belt,every body knows that :mad: dont take what they say as fact,there only covering there own arses f..... if id let that go

528i

The timing belt & tensioner dont require changing at first service (not until 40k mls? ), I've had an Audi do exactly the same with a jammed tensioner, clutched it immediately and was lucky enough not to have damaged valves & pistons with the resultant shredded cambelt, chains while alittle rattly by times are much less prone to failure and have been known to last upwards of 200k miles in some cars. I think this dealer is pulling the p!ss with a €7,000 repair bill, is that for a complete new engine ?, at that rate (you mustn't heed my advice though) you were better off throwing a match to it and claiming the insurance.

Has this engine been used on the megane/laguna etc. ? if so, you could try treanors car breakers up north for a direct replacement / complete head.

Incidentally, I came across this afew days ago on scoobynet and thought it was just an awesome idea, and what better time ehh ? Basically a standard clio with Audi 1.8T engine tuned to nearly 300bhp - you know you want to !!


the ultimate sleeper surely ?

dessied

Well thanks to yis all for your feedback on this its been nice to get some options on it. Im not gonna be spending 7k getting this fixed and i havent been in touch with the garage myself on this, its my partners motor (mines an alfa 156 - abuse away)...

Anyways i will be getting involved with the garage etc now that theyve told us the score, and youve all given me a few things to think about.

btw, 528i I may just do that !

ubu

528i wrote:

[/IMG]
the ultimate sleeper surely ?

Damn right, the 1.2 badge still on the side of it and everything, youd get some shock at the lights, would only be able to go fast in a straight line unless they upraded the suspension, brakes etc to go with it and it doesnt look like they have, adds to the surprise id say tho!

LegacyUser

dessied, I really hope all works out with the car. That really is a tale of woe. I know well that Renault are not the best for after sales care.

Silvera

Might be a longshot, but have you considered contacting S.I.M.I ?
They MAY be able to help.

Failing that, I would take podgeen's advise and 'shop around' for an engine in the North (or the UK). At €7000, it would even be worth trailering the car to England to have an engine fitted (prob at a fraction of €7k cost) !

ambro25

Didn't bother reading the rest of the thread after "happened short time after servicing", so apologies if it was mentioned, but....

I once had a timing belt snap 20 miles out of the garage at which I had just collected my BX TD and at which it had been changed during the service: it turned out the garage had put an apprentice to work on the car, and he had fitted the belt the wrong way around :eek:

Now, I'm no super-duper car mechanic, but I'd hazard a guess that timing belts are designed to withstand stresses mostly along one direction of revolution (e.g. clockwise for the sake of argument), and not the inverse direction (e.g. anti-clockwise, as would be the case if it had been fitted the wrong way around). I hope you've kept the snapped belt and can get it checked (though i can't recommend anywhere ).

EDIT: BTW, needless to say, the car was out of warranty, but the garage rebuilt the engine free of charge (only gentle pressure applied , as it's the tow truck driver who told me what had happened to my driving belt and I had him ready to testify in court if it came to it - the fact that it had happened in the middle of major roadworks on a motorway, with a visibility of 70-100 yards because of fog might have swayed them as well)

AMurphy

I find the belt being directional a bit difficult to understand, and assuming it was, then I'd expect the manufacturer to highlight this fact with a direction of rotation arrow, if not, how is one to know?.
Though, I would settle for a belt or bearing failing for overtensioning.

lomb

i dont believe the belt was changed since the car was newish and had only 20k miles on it. id agree with u that the tensioner or water pump bearing probably siezed. happens all the time on model helicopters especially if their is a high lateral loading ie the belt was over tensioned.

also it is possibler the car has been clocked and really has 50000 miles on it as it was bought used.

pedro ferio-vti

Normally a timing belt will last for 50-60k miles OR 5 years, whatever comes first........ looks like you've found this out the hard way. Car was 4 years old so would've been due a belt at which time the idlers and tensioners would've been inspected for wear thus avoiding this problem.........

AMurphy

pedro ferio-vti wrote:

Normally a timing belt will last for 50-60k miles OR 5 years, whatever comes first........ .........

That would be acceptable to the general public I think..... However it appears there are exceptions, short (see above) and long (see below)

ambro25

AMurphy wrote:

I find the belt being directional a bit difficult to understand, and assuming it was, then I'd expect the manufacturer to highlight this fact with a direction of rotation arrow, if not, how is one to know?

Indeed - and there is one (usually painted yellow, I think). I could still just about make it out when the guy who towed me showed me the "ribbons". As to how a newly-qualified but inexperienced car mechanic could fit it the wrong way... well, suffice to say the chat with the workshop manager (upon showing up in a tow truck an hour after I'd taken delivery of the car) was 'interesting'.

But fair does, in respect of other posts above, it could well have been the tensioner or such other gubbins that the young guy didn't check, for all I know - as I said, me not being a car mechanic, I just took the tower's word for it

BrianD3

The premature tensioner failure and subsequent belt breakage was just bad luck, I doubt that the garage went near that part of the engine at the 20k service. These things will always happen to a certain percentage of cars. Any mechanical part on any car can fail at any time without warning, it's part of the joy of motoring if the car is outside warranty when it happens, the manufacturer is pretty much off the hook.

Anyway I'm not a fan of the practice of using a glorified rubber band for such a vital part of the engine. Many things can affect the belt eg some oil spilt on a rubber belt could definitely weaken it. Chains are probably better but best of all is a setup using a series of cogs. The Toyota Landcruiser 100 has this setup, no belts or chains to break, slip, stretch, no tension to set, no tensioners to fail.

BrianD3

lomb

BrianD3 wrote:

Anyway I'm not a fan of the practice of using a glorified rubber band for such a vital part of the engine.
BrianD3

LOL chains are a wee bit noisy and sap some engine power id say. cogs defo sap power from the motor and would be noisy. belts are smooth and vibration free. i cant understand why if the belt snaps the valves get torn out of it. can an interference free design not be possible, or the valves shouldnt open as much mayb so they dont get cleaved out of it.

pedro ferio-vti

BrianD3 wrote:

The premature tensioner failure and subsequent belt breakage was just bad luck,

Or just the fact it was a renault.......

BrianD3 wrote:

Anyway I'm not a fan of the practice of using a glorified rubber band for such a vital part of the engine. Many things can affect the belt eg some oil spilt on a rubber belt could definitely weaken it. Chains are probably better but best of all is a setup using a series of cogs. The Toyota Landcruiser 100 has this setup, no belts or chains to break, slip, stretch, no tension to set, no tensioners to fail.
BrianD3

Both setups have pros and cons. Personally I prefer belts as long as they're maintained properly and the timing cover is kept over it to make sure the belt does not wear prematurely with exposure to oil, water etc. If the belt is changed properly you should have roughly 5 years of quiet (!)trouble free motoring.

The thing I don't like about chain setups is that they're noisy and rattly and motors with high mileage on them you can never get rid of that stupid noise from the chain area. They do need maintenance and to be tensioned also wheras the belt drive will normally come with a automatic tensioner bolted to the block depending on the type of engine.

BrianD3

pedro ferio-vti wrote:

Both setups have pros and cons. Personally I prefer belts as long as they're maintained properly and the timing cover is kept over it to make sure the belt does not wear prematurely with exposure to oil, water etc.

True, but the belt can still get exposed to oil/water from under the cover eg a slight weep from a crank or camshaft oil seal. The leak might be so insignificant that you wouldn't notice any unusual drop in the oil level between services, however it could be enough to degrade the belt a bit and cause premature wear. Also, some cars have frost plugs under the cambelt cover, again if there was a slight water leak from one of these it could affect the belt. Then there's the possibility of a water leak from the weep hole on a cambelt driven waterpump. Cambelts are fragile and temperamental, small things can affect them and you can never rely on them to break or not to break. They can break after 10k or can last 140k (eg AMurphy's Camry )

BrianD3

pedro ferio-vti

lomb wrote:

LOL chains are a wee bit noisy and sap some engine power id say. cogs defo sap power from the motor and would be noisy. belts are smooth and vibration free. i cant understand why if the belt snaps the valves get torn out of it. can an interference free design not be possible, or the valves shouldnt open as much mayb so they dont get cleaved out of it.

The weight issue is a good one alright, never really thought of it but sure, the weight of the chain would be added to the weight of the valve train thus not letting it rev as high as a similar belt engine.

Engines already have non interference designs, most Fiats have them and both my cars have them. However it's not always possible to incorporate a non interference design into an engine especially if it's a high compression NA engine as the extra clearance required for having a non interference design would not allow the engine to have as high a compression ratio as one without as the clearances required would be greater.

Good example of the above interference engines are Honda ones. Most of their engines are very high compression units with the S2000 being like 11:1 which is REALLY high.

BrianD3 wrote:

True, but the belt can still get exposed to oil/water from under the cover eg a slight weep from a crank or camshaft oil seal. The leak might be so insignificant that you wouldn't notice any unusual drop in the oil level between servic.... etc

Well, that's fair enough and what you're saying *can* happen but i'd accept belts with all their flaws as long as they stay quiet tbh.

lomb

pedro ferio-vti wrote:

However it's not always possible to incorporate a non interference design into an engine especially if it's a high compression .

makes sense, good sense actually, perhaps they could design it so that when the valve opens it rises so the valve never actuially is in the chamber if u know what i mean but then this would be dearer to manufacture and the engine would be longer and they want them short to have low bonnets for safety.

at the end of the day ive looked it up and a renault clio valve for that motor is 10 pound sterling, so if it needs 16 valves thats 160stg, a belt/tensioner/ water pump kit is 120stg so all in the parts to repair that engine are 280stg or 500euro tops assuming the piston crowns arent to badly damaged. call it 500 labour to repair it and u are talking 1k max.

i think renault are making a mountain out of a molehill by stripping the motor and sending it to renault who i could have told him (and the garage would certainly know this) is a waste of time. renault would never have offered more than 50% even if they had good customer care which i know for a fact they dont. so a new engine is 7k and half is 31/2 k so whats the point if it can be fixed for a grand to be messing with them. i have a sneaking suspicion that either the poster or his partner likes things 'done by the book' either they modify this attitude or else pay 7grand less 10% or find an indie mechanic who will repair the motor there is no other option.

pedro ferio-vti

lomb wrote:

at the end of the day ive looked it up and a renault clio valve for that motor is 10 pound sterling, so if it needs 16 valves thats 160stg, a belt/tensioner/ water pump kit is 120stg so all in the parts to repair that engine are 280stg or 500euro tops assuming the piston crowns arent to badly damaged. call it 500 labour to repair it and u are talking 1k max.

That's true but only if none of the valves snapped and got bet round the chambers a bit cos if they did the head will be in bits and so will the piston tops. Also the pistons will have to be replaced if they got a bang of a valve.

The design of the non interference thing you mentioned is a good idea but costly to manufacture and won't be as reliable or as maintenance free as the current setup.

I actually believe the Fiat engine have a sort of relief valve design but i'll check with a friend later.

lomb

pedro ferio-vti wrote:

That's true but only if none of the valves snapped and got bet round the chambers a bit cos if they did the head will be in bits and so will the piston tops. Also the pistons will have to be replaced if they got a bang of a valve.

The design of the non interference thing you mentioned is a good idea but costly to manufacture and won't be as reliable or as maintenance free as the current setup.

I actually believe the Fiat engine have a sort of relief valve design but i'll check with a friend later.

id say even if the piston tops are dentedf slightly it wont make any difference. its only if they are holed or as u say if one valve snapped, then it will make a mess of the critical cylinder liner. def dont want any scratches on the liner, id say the piston top doesnt matter(speaking on experiance with model engines)