Starting up as a web developer?

mewso · 04-07-2001 4:23pm #1

I've just been asked to design 2 websites of a fairly simple kind. I now have to figure out what to charge these people. I have to get them a domain, hosting of a minimal nature with possible cgi needs. I also have to then decide what to charge them for my own services.
I'm wondering if one does this kind of work should I register as a freelance web developer, is this done? What kind of charges are approriate?

dahamsta · 04-07-2001 7:16pm

I'm wondering if one does this kind of work should I register as a freelance web developer, is this done?

Well, I guess you could join the IIA, but that would be an utter waste of money IMHO. Never seen an organisation to less for the community they're supposed to represent.

What kind of charges are approriate?

That depends - what do you think you're worth? Seriously, aside from the domain names and hosting, web development is something you charge what you think you're worth. If you're good, and you can prove you're good, charge a hefty fee for your services. If you're not brialliant at the moment, charge a few hundred quid, there's plenty of people out there looking for small sites that don't need to be anything special.

Hell, I could refer a site a week to you that I don't pick up. For a hefty percentage of course.

But don't overcharge on the hosting and domains. There's too much information out there on the net, and too many scam artists taking people to the cleaners on it. Charge a small markup and go for bulk. And don't host in Ireland. Not at the start anyway.

adam

mewso · 05-07-2001 8:53am

Thanks for the comments. I do web development for the crowd who pay my salary and as far as coding goes I think I'm good. But a lovely looking site with nices graphics well thats my weakness. Anyway I'm doing these sites for family friends so I will be marking down when I charge them as a favour.
So there is no group worth registering with but lets just say for the sake of arguement you want everything above board shouldn't one register as a company or something for tax purposes?

dahamsta · 05-07-2001 9:43am

But a lovely looking site with nices graphics well thats my weakness.

Well, do something about it. Concentrate on what you're good at and farm out what you're not. Don't churn out average sites, team up with someone who's good at graphic design.

So there is no group worth registering with

No, *I* don't think there's anyone worth registering with.

but lets just say for the sake of arguement you want everything above board shouldn't one register as a company or something for tax purposes?

No, you'll be a sole trader, which is perfectly acceptable. If you want to *look* like a business and get cheques made out to a business name, register one - it only costs about £25 - and set up a current account in your bank in the company name (it'll be "your name t/a company name", but cheques can be made out to the company name).

Whatever you do though, keep receipts for everything you buy, do invoices for everything you sell (unless it's cash), and keep a note of everything. If it takes off, all that will be invaluable, especially if the Revenue marks you down for an audit (time to pray).

Here's my best piece of advice: don't register for VAT until you have to. That was my single biggest mistake, I registered for VAT because my accountant told me to, and he was wrong, I've regretted it to this day.

And since I feel I've been very helpful here today, how about getting in touch if you need a hosting partner.

adam

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 05-07-2001).]

Miguel_Sanchez · 05-07-2001 10:12am

It is my experience that people in the West of Ireland are extremely scabby when it comes to paying for web site design. If you're in Connaught - watch out! We've had businesses who shell out thousands of pounds on a weekly basis in advertising telling us that £1000 was too much to pay for a full web site.

Web Design is a very shaky business because any little **** with a copy of Frontpage can 'design' web pages. Granted they may be ****e but they'll only charge £200 and then real designers are forced to lower their prices too because a lot of customers will not check out the standard of work before they get someone to design their page. They'll presume that everyone is the same.

Seriously "You get what you pay for" seems to be a concept that has yet to sink in with a lot of people.

Then again there are real con artists out there. I know one guy in the West of Ireland (no names mentioned now) that charges well in excess of £1000 for sites that he throws together in an afternoon. They are done with Front Page, they don't work in any other browser than IE5+ and have spelling mistakes and shoddy graphics all over them. It's infuriating because when people get conned by this sort they think all web designers are the same.

Hey Adam - if you're farming in more work than you can handle give me a shout by e-mail and maybe we can link up and we can contract work out from you guys. If you're interested let me know at my Hotmail address and I'll point you towards our company page.

I'm the Dude

[This message has been edited by Jeff_Lebowski (edited 05-07-2001).]

dahamsta · 05-07-2001 12:21pm

It is my experience that people in the West of Ireland are extremely scabby when it comes to paying for web site design.

You're not kidding! Talk about wanting something for nothing!

We've had businesses who shell out thousands of pounds on a weekly basis in advertising telling us that £1000 was too much to pay for a full web site.

Yeah, that drives me insane.

Web Design is a very shaky business because any little **** with a copy of Frontpage can 'design' web pages. Granted they may be ****e but they'll only charge £200 and then real designers are forced to lower their prices too because a lot of customers will not check out the standard of work before they get someone to design their page. They'll presume that everyone is the same. Seriously "You get what you pay for" seems to be a concept that has yet to sink in with a lot of people. Then again there are real con artists out there. I know one guy in the West of Ireland (no names mentioned now) that charges well in excess of £1000 for sites that he throws together in an afternoon. They are done with Front Page, they don't work in any other browser than IE5+ and have spelling mistakes and shoddy graphics all over them. It's infuriating because when people get conned by this sort they think all web designers are the same.

Yes, it's a serious problem that affects us all. More than once in the Wesht I've been approached by someone's who's been stung, and isn't willing to pay a decent price because of it. But it's hard to define a difference between being stung and supplying a product according to the price. I have several older clients who think I stung them because I gave them what they paid for (and sometimes more than they paid for). They expect miracles, and when they don't get them they blame the developer. One of the biggest mistakes I made was getting into profit-sharing agreements - don't trust 'em folks, get the money for the site and avoid profit-sharing contracts like the plague. If you're a good coder, set up administration interfaces and avoid administration contracts too. "Yes, we need the text on this page changed to $blah." Next week: "Yes, we need it changed back again." Gah! The other thing is that people genuinely expect eCommerce sites to take off like -> that <-. They don't seem to realise the amount of work that's involved, even if you explain it to them. That's why I just tell most people to p1ss off these days. Unless they're willing to listen and spend a reasonable amount of wedge - without throwing money at it like it was a bricks and mortar venture, which never works - I'm just not interested. I end up doing more work than it's worth. There's a great sense of power in telling people you're not interested too, which I won't deny feels pretty good.

Hey Adam - if you're farming in more work than you can handle give me a shout by e-mail and maybe we can link up and we can contract work out from you guys. If you're interested let me know at my Hotmail address and I'll point you towards our company page.

I honestly get a lot of that, and I've yet to find someone to live up to my expectations. That said, we might be able to come up with something on a regional basis - send a link to storage@iewebs.com and I'll have a look when I get a chance, ok?

adam

PS. Sorry about the mess - learning to live with the Linux GUI.

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 05-07-2001).]

Miguel_Sanchez · 05-07-2001 1:26pm

We had a client who we designed a web shop for who decided that they didn't need to do any promotion because as soon as they were on the internet they'd just make money instantly.

Turns out too that they were planning to pay the bill with the money they made in the first month. FFS - some people make me so angry.

Adam - I'm sending a mail now.

I'm the Dude

mewso · 05-07-2001 1:30pm

Well, do something about it. Concentrate on what you're good at and farm out what you're not. Don't churn out average sites, team up with someone who's good at graphic design.

Ah yeah sure I've done it before. My deusex site is a good example. Fury helped me with the graphics and I did all the coding so I would be all for using skilled peeps and just coding.
I like the idea of a hosting partner. I think I'll see if I can get these two sites up and running and then consider taking things further.

The Corinthian · 05-07-2001 1:47pm

Give the client a series of options from the bare basic to the fanciful advanced. This will give them a cheap option (less than £1,000) and leave them looking for more (which will naturally cost more).

Anything a FrontPage Muppet can do, you should charge little for. The moment 'programming' enters the equation you should make them suffer a little. I've also noticed that the more you charge, the more they take you seriously

Important: Get a contract & a signed spec of what they're expecting at the initial or basic price. If they deviate from the spec (i.e. more features, etc.), point to the spec and say "that's extra". Such change requests should also be documented/signed and charged at a 'time & materials' rate. Be ruthless about such change requests - they will be.

On the point of being a sole trader, that gives you unlimited liability, which may cause problem. Setting up a Ltd may cost more, but it may be worth the piece of mind and is ultimately cheaper than professional liability insurance.

dahamsta · 05-07-2001 2:10pm

Important: Get a contract & a signed spec of what they're expecting at the initial or basic price.

Very true.

On the point of being a sole trader, that gives you unlimited liability, which may cause problem. Setting up a Ltd may cost more, but it may be worth the piece of mind and is ultimately cheaper than professional liability insurance.

Also true, but there are advantages to remaining a sole trader too, as long as you're prepared to live with the risk (and the risk can be minimal if you keep the costs down). My favourite advantage is that if you're a sole trader, you have the same Data Protection facilities as a natural person. In other words, when someone spams you, can can threaten them with criminal proceedings. When you're going up against a dozy Irish spammer, that can be so much fun!

adam

dahamsta · 06-07-2001 3:01pm

Dude, send me that email again will you? I deleted it by mistake.

Cheers,
adam

Starting up as a web developer?

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