Police in turkey beat womans rights march

mycroft

On international womans day, turkish riot police savagely beat a group of women protesting for better rights.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/816F251F-8725-4155-8E5B-46B3C2E6B061.htm

With the eyes of the EU on them, they were quick to suspend three officers

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/74E0D724-4CDD-4ACE-89F3-6798002DE398.htm

but as poor press freedom goes on

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EACBD155-639C-49D7-B72F-E4772FB39250.htm

We have to ask, is the carrot of EU intergration forcing Turkish reform at too slow a pace for realistic intergration. And the obvious flip side, if the EU were to withdraw the potential membership, would human rights erode further in turkey, without the insentive to reform.

Also can anyone speculate on what would occur if the IRA kurds ceceded from the new Iraq state?

A Dub in Glasgo

Turkey has an appalling human rights record but it is a member of the good guys network.

If the Kurds in Iraq achieve effective automony, I would expect to see Turkey come down very hard on the invigorated call from the Kurds in Turkey for a homeland.

Nuttzz

Asia minor has no place in the EU, a bit like Israel in the eurovision.

I wouldnt like to see Turkey in the EU until it can act like all other member states and I dont think we will ever see that happen IMO

halkar

Unfortunately Europeans are not much better but how much of it you hear?

All image links below are from European countries and probably thousands more if you look around. (Warning, Some might be disturbing)
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2001/03/202327.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/C3/C3-290301_1_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/C3/C3-290301_2_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/DO/DO-030301_4_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/CA/CA-270301_8_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/CA/CA-270301_4_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/C2/C2-270301_2_m.jpg
http://www.agrnews.org/issues/133/Genoa7.GIF
http://www.agrnews.org/issues/133/Genoa4.GIF
http://www.socialistviewpoint.org/june_03/FrenchPoliceArrest.jpg
http://relaisej.free.fr/images/flic.jpg
http://cettesemaine.free.fr/pix/goete8.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/east/10/20/asia.eu.protest.ap/story.riot.police.ap.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/zaragoza26.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/salamanca26.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/salamanca26.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/salamanca26_2.jpg

seamus

halkar wrote:

Unfortunately Europeans are not much better but how much of it you hear?

All image links below are from European countries and probably thousands more if you look around. (Warning, Some might be disturbing)

Pictures are worth nothing without context.

I don't think anyone here is saying that Europe always has been, and always will be, a shining beacon of human rights and freedom, but it's a hell of a lot better than Turkey, and most of Europe is much closer to the kind of world we'd *like* to live in, and making much more of an effort, than Turkey seems to be.

All of those pictures were tame.

Slutmonkey57b

Care to release some pictures of stone-throwing rioters attacking a static line of police to balance things out there?

Thought not.

AlienGav

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Care to release some pictures of stone-throwing rioters attacking a static line of police to balance things out there?

Thought not.

It's still not a good enough reason for a police officer to kick a girl in the face...

Fcuk sake! Get a water cannon lads!

Roisin Dubh

Red Card for Turkey.

halkar

Seamus, context is already in the pictures, did you forget what happened in G8 summit in Italy? And there are many more, no one is perfect. Yet

I dare to see what will happen in World Cup in Germany next year

Wibbs

halkar wrote:

Seamus, context is already in the pictures, did you forget what happened in G8 summit in Italy? And there are many more, no one is perfect. Yet

True, but a hell of a lot better than the alternatives out there. Until Turkey becomes a secular state they should be viewed with suspicion. At least the women were allowed out on the streets in the first place, so that's a start.

Frank Grimes

Wibbs wrote:

Until Turkey becomes a secular state they should be viewed with suspicion.

Turkey is a secular state.

Wibbs

Apologies, I stand corrected. I should have said a fully fledged secular state.

Since the 1997 coup ended the rule of Turkey's Islamic government the country has been struggling with the transition into a modern secular society.

http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world98/refahban.htm

http://www.inminds.co.uk/hijab-ban/kavakci.html

http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=400&issue_id=2937&article_id=236625

Hopefully moderate Islam has a part to play but the country is dividing between 2 extremes along secular/religious lines.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2400239.stm

The worry would be that as this division grows the more fundementalist Islam may gain ground. That would be very dangerous for Europe and the stability of the region if that was to happen.


BTW isn't one of the members here a Turkish citizen. Maybe he/she could jump in here with some perspective on the issue?

mycroft

halkar wrote:

Seamus, context is already in the pictures, did you forget what happened in G8 summit in Italy? And there are many more, no one is perfect. Yet

I dare to see what will happen in World Cup in Germany next year

Great response. Fling mud back without answering the salient points.

Theres a world of difference between G8 summit and the sustained human rights abuse of minorities like the kurds, and y'know one of the sexes in turkey. Thats oppression.

It's also worth pointing out that throwing up photos from Genoa the week after a court case started investigating senior officers behaviour during the school Diaz raid, shall we compare that to show trials of Kurdish leaders?

halkar

What is Kurds got to the with woman's right protest. Why don't you stick to the subject? That was not a Kurdish demonstration.

mycroft

halkar wrote:

What is Kurds got to the with woman's right protest. Why don't you stick to the subject? That was not a Kurdish demonstration.

I was citing the orignal post as another example of turkish rights abuse, we've clashed over kurdish rights in turkey, and you've not come off the better, I'm still waiting for your translation of some turkish articles that you claim support your pov.

halkar

You have no idea about Turkey nor Kurds in Turkey other than what you read in Amnesty sites, I am not going to translate anything for you but Kurdish terrorists are still around and there are still clashes at the south east of country. I guess you don't hear any of that in your regular news sites.

Kurds in Turkey are far better of than those in Iraq, Iran and Syria and it is improving. It was Turgut Ozal (ex prime minister of Turkey) whom suggested formation of a Kurdish safe haven, in northern Iraq to protect the
Kurds which was accepted by both UK and US and saved many lives of Kurds in Iraq. Historicly Kurds always been friends of Turk and they were the only ones that allied with Turkey in her war for independence early in the last century after arabs back stab them with promisses of imperialist Britain. There are estimated 20 million Kurds in Turkey, if they all supported terrorist and their ideas, Turkey would be in a big mess right now. You can read history but read both sides before you decide.

Of course what happened in the demonstartions was god send for anti-Turkish loby in EU. But excuse after excuse EU will not let Turkey join regardles what they do. There were many countries that joined EU were worst than Turkey today and less secular even our little Ireland. They did not ask Spain to give up Basq nor asked Britain to give up NI nor sorted out the Cyprus issue before she joined. Too many double standards but many simply wont't admit they just don't want Turkey because of it's religion. After all 80 million muslims would be very very hard to digest for EU.

I guess we will be hearing a lot about Turkey for the next decade, lets hope it won't be all bad.

mycroft

halkar wrote:

You have no idea about Turkey nor Kurds in Turkey other than what you read in Amnesty sites, I am not going to translate anything for you but Kurdish terrorists are still around and there are still clashes at the south east of country. I guess you don't hear any of that in your regular news sites.

Well call me nuts, I tend to take the word of the worlds premier human rights organisation over the word of some bloke on the internet. I'm suspicious like that. And the actions of a small group of terrorists, does not justify the widescale oppression, (like banning the language) that turkey have engaged in.

Kurds in Turkey are far better of than those in Iraq, Iran and Syria and it is improving.

We're not talking about Iran, Iraq, and Syria, we're talking about turkey, and we have the carrot of EU admission to force and press the reforms there.

It was Turgut Ozal (ex prime minister of Turkey) whom suggested formation of a Kurdish safe haven, in northern Iraq to protect the
Kurds which was accepted by both UK and US and saved many lives of Kurds in Iraq.

would that be the safe haven you wanted to invade at the start of the war? The safe haven that wasn't, post the gulf war?

Historical Kurds always been friends of Turk and they were the only ones that allied with Turkey in her war for independence early in the last century after arabs back stab them with promisses of imperialist Britain. There are estimated 20 million Kurds in Turkey, if they all supported terrorist and their ideas, Turkey would be in a big mess right now. You can read history but read both sides before you decide.

Who said I supported kurdish independence? I'd prefer if you didn't beat imprison them, and engage in systematic rape of their women.

Of course what happened in the demonstartions was god send for anti-Turkish loby in EU. But excuse after excuse EU will not let Turkey join regardles what they do. There were many countries that joined EU were worst than Turkey today and less secular even our little Ireland.

Okay going to call you on that one. Which states had a worse human rights record then turkey, when it was applying to join and again, your response to any accusation is to fling back another accusation, thats what we call around here the bloody sunday defense.

They did not ask Spain to give up Basq nor asked Britain to give up NI nor sorted out the Cyprus issue before she joined. Too many double standards but many simply wont't admit they just don't want Turkey because of it's religion. After all 80 million muslims would be very very hard to digest for EU.

And we're not asking you to give up kurdistan, we're asking you to tone down the whole rape, murder and torture bit.

I guess we will be hearing a lot about Turkey for the next decade, lets hope it won't be all bad.

PSST guess who can fix that. I'll give you a clue they're the only potential EU state that goes just great with cranberry and brie.

halkar

What was the state of Ireland while she was joining and after it joined? Babies taken from their mothers, church affairs that got swepped under carpets, problems in NI, were they all sorted before Ireland join?

Greece does not recognise any other ethnicity, Turks there have been fighting for their rights for decades and getting no where. There is a Turkish and muslim minority there but you will not find one mosque in Athens. You can also read about Greece in amnesty sites about how they threat the minorities there. Regardles they are in the club.

Safe haven after the first Gulf War. If you don't know about Turgut Ozal, he was prime minister and later president and add to your surprise he was open about his Kurdish ancestry.

Many of the oppression against Kurds are gone, they have Kurdish papers, tv, radio, schools they are in the government and there are towns where all governors are Kurdish still far from perfect but improving.

You can call me nuts too and you don't have to take the word of some bloke on the internet, but I have lived, worked with Kurds and have many Kurdish friends. It will take years to improve Turkish human rights records but there will always be ****-stirrers both in Eu and in Turkey.

mycroft

halkar wrote:

What was the state of Ireland while she was joining and after it joined? Babies taken from their mothers, church affairs that got swepped under carpets, problems in NI, were they all sorted before Ireland join?

It may have escaped your notice but NI is not part of Ireland. But no we're not perfect not by a long shot. But to compare the Magedline laundries with mass torture rape and disappearance is disingenious.

Greece does not recognise any other ethnicity, Turks there have been fighting for their rights for decades and getting no where. There is a Turkish and muslim minority there but you will not find one mosque in Athens. You can also read about Greece in amnesty sites about how they threat the minorities there. Regardles they are in the club.

Links, n proof?

Safe haven after the first Gulf War. If you don't know about Turgut Ozal, he was prime minister and later president and add to your surprise he was open about his Kurdish ancestry.

Well theres 20 million of them, they can get a vote. Whats your point? This guy's a kurd therefore the vast level of reported abuse, torture and disappearances are okay?

Many of the oppression against Kurds are gone, they have Kurdish papers, tv, radio, schools they are in the government and there are towns where all governors are Kurdish still far from perfect but improving.

And I don't doubt for a second this has occured because of external pressure on turkey, not out of some epiphany.

You can call me nuts too and you don't have to take the word of some bloke on the internet, but I have lived, worked with Kurds and have many Kurdish friends. It will take years to improve Turkish human rights records but there will always be ****-stirrers both in Eu and in Turkey.

My girlfriend works with a turkish kurd, he's told me stories that leave me weak at the knees. I've met people working in the UK on the Islui damn campaign, they've got a pleathora of stories to tell.

Announcing I know kurds, therefore I know better does not wash.

it's also nice to see that your rebuttal consists completely of counter attacks is nothing new, consistence in a world gone mad etc.......

halkar

mycroft wrote:

Links, n proof?

Greek human rights

Mosques in Athens

Well theres 20 million of them, they can get a vote. Whats your point? This guy's a kurd therefore the vast level of reported abuse, torture and disappearances are okay?

No it does not make anything Ok, but if a Turk can get to highest rank in Turkey, Kurds can too.

And I don't doubt for a second this has occured because of external pressure on turkey, not out of some epiphany.

No it was not because of external pressure, it was only after the capture of Ocalan to end 30 years of terrorism which lead to reforms. Terrorists did no favour to Kurdish in Turkey other than destroying peoples lives both Turkish and Kurdish.

My girlfriend works with a turkish kurd, he's told me stories that leave me weak at the knees. I've met people working in the UK on the Islui damn campaign, they've got a pleathora of stories to tell.

Ask your Kurdish friend about Ocalan's harem and Barzani and Talabani's millions of dollars of money making operations in Iraq. They control all illegal trade routes with smuggling good to Iraq for decades. While you are at it ask why the Kurds tried to buy Turkish identities in northern Iraq to chage the demographics of the region to their favour, also ask why was there many Turks stopped voting in Kerkuk with threaths, asked why was the Turkmen TV was attacked while live on air in Kerkuk.

I can also tell you stories of 30000 men, women, kids were killed by terrorists that could leave you weak at your knees, I can also tell you about my brother's friends that was ambushed and killed by terrorist and one of the bodies was never found, but everyone has their story, after all I am just another bloke on the internet.

mycroft

halkar wrote:

Ask your Kurdish friend about Ocalan's harem and Barzani and Talabani's millions of dollars of money making operations in Iraq. They control all illegal trade routes with smuggling good to Iraq for decades. While you are at it ask why the Kurds tried to buy Turkish identities in northern Iraq to chage the demographics of the region to their favour, also ask why was there many Turks stopped voting in Kerkuk with threaths, asked why was the Turkmen TV was attacked while live on air in Kerkuk.

I can also tell you stories of 30000 men, women, kids were killed by terrorists that could leave you weak at your knees, I can also tell you about my brother's friends that was ambushed and killed by terrorist and one of the bodies was never found, but everyone has their story, after all I am just another bloke on the internet.

I'll examine your two provided links tomorrow.

I'll also examine the plausiblity of said links with international aid and human rights watch.

I'll also look at the above claims and unlesss you can provide independent prove to support said claims, I'll be looking for your banning from this forum.
Thats your brothers friend, 30,000 people killed, and disappeared bodies, if you fail to find a reputable independent source to back up allegdations, I will demand the mods ban you.

I shall not be holding my breath.

You have till monday to support said claim, and them I will report this to Mods and I will add previous unsupported claims (by you) to my report.

abccormac

35000 killed

During a rebellion that began in the mid-1980s and claimed some 35,000 lives...

The link doesn't give a breakdoen of how many were killed on each side however.

jesus_thats_gre

halkar wrote:

Unfortunately Europeans are not much better but how much of it you hear?

All image links below are from European countries and probably thousands more if you look around. (Warning, Some might be disturbing)
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2001/03/202327.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/C3/C3-290301_1_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/C3/C3-290301_2_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/DO/DO-030301_4_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/CA/CA-270301_8_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/CA/CA-270301_4_m.jpg
http://www.demo-reports.de/imgs/C2/C2-270301_2_m.jpg
http://www.agrnews.org/issues/133/Genoa7.GIF
http://www.agrnews.org/issues/133/Genoa4.GIF
http://www.socialistviewpoint.org/june_03/FrenchPoliceArrest.jpg
http://relaisej.free.fr/images/flic.jpg
http://cettesemaine.free.fr/pix/goete8.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/east/10/20/asia.eu.protest.ap/story.riot.police.ap.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/zaragoza26.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/salamanca26.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/salamanca26.jpg
http://lmno4p.org/images/3.24-31/salamanca26_2.jpg[/QUOTE]

I particularly like this one:

http://cettesemaine.free.fr/pix/goete8.jpg

Police attacking a crowd.. But look what the crowd are wearing ffs.. People cover their faces for a reason at these events..

halkar

Mycroft, It might not be a convincing link but there are many links on that page about PKK. It is difficult to find links on PKK activities in western media. Until Sept 11 they were not accepted as terrorist organization. Fight with terrorism is very difficult where your friends or enemies are not know. Consider terrorism in NI and what it did to her for years, now multiply that by 10 and relise what happened in south eastern Turkey.

mycroft

halkar wrote:

Greek human rights

Mosques in Athens

The link does not suggest that Greece is not allowing a mosque to be built, as iis your implied suggestion, And the links to human rights abuse in greece does not compare to turkey

No it does not make anything Ok, but if a Turk can get to highest rank in Turkey, Kurds can too.

So you're admitting wide scale human rights abuse then?

No it was not because of external pressure, it was only after the capture of Ocalan to end 30 years of terrorism which lead to reforms. Terrorists did no favour to Kurdish in Turkey other than destroying peoples lives both Turkish and Kurdish.

But you're claiming that terrorism continues.

Ask your Kurdish friend about Ocalan's harem and Barzani and Talabani's millions of dollars of money making operations in Iraq. They control all illegal trade routes with smuggling good to Iraq for decades.

Going to call you on the above, provide a link, or I'll report you to mods.

While you are at it ask why the Kurds tried to buy Turkish identities in northern Iraq to chage the demographics of the region to their favour, also ask why was there many Turks stopped voting in Kerkuk with threaths, asked why was the Turkmen TV was attacked while live on air in Kerkuk.

Ditto, link it.

I can also tell you stories of 30000 men, women, kids were killed by terrorists that could leave you weak at your knees, I can also tell you about my brother's friends that was ambushed and killed by terrorist and one of the bodies was never found, but everyone has their story, after all I am just another bloke on the internet.

Again links to support 30,000 people dead, I recall the majority of people killed were kurds.

Mycroft, It might not be a convincing link but there are many links on that page about PKK. It is difficult to find links on PKK activities in western media. Until Sept 11 they were not accepted as terrorist organization. Fight with terrorism is very difficult where your friends or enemies are not know. Consider terrorism in NI and what it did to her for years, now multiply that by 10 and relise what happened in south eastern Turkey.

I'm not going to wade through a site to support your viewpoint, when you dismiss it in your own post.

And the comparison between Nth Ireland is not apt. And wildly flinging about claims, and asking me about Nth Ireland is not a defense, and not worth arguing.

halkar

The link does not suggest that Greece is not allowing a mosque to be built, as iis your implied suggestion, And the links to human rights abuse in greece does not compare to turkey

So why not build a mosque? We have far less muslim population here and there are 2 mosques. Would it be acceptable for you if you were in Turkey and there were no churches and you were to pray in basements? Abuse is abuse regardless of its form, my point is Greece is in EU, do you find any form of human rights abuse acceptable for a member of EU?

So you're admitting wide scale human rights abuse then?

What is wide scale? Do you think 20 million Kurds are abused in Turkey? If you are curious you can go and see how kurds live there rather than listening your girl friend's friends tales. They don't speak for all Kurds. Like all humans they want to live peacfully but that is hardly to happen under treath of terrorism where you don't know who your friend or enemy is. As I said earlier PKK did nothing but damaged their cause for decades.

Here is a link where you can read where you can see their activities and names of victims with their ages.

Going to call you on the above, provide a link, or I'll report you to mods.

Yeah sure report me, who do you think was controlling Norther Iraqi borders and customs for past decade? Where do you think money was going?
Taken from, Letter from Irbil, Iraq

Both Barzani and Talabani are pretty dirty guys. I mean, Barzani called on Saddam - who killed 8,000 of his tribal brothers during the 1980s, anyone with the name Barzani was a dead man - to help fend off Talabani's guys during a civil war between the two Kurdish groups. Talabani accepted the support of Iran during the same war. Just to spite Barzani, Talabani's people invited Islamic fundamentalists his rival had kicked out to hole up in the mountains near Iran, where they've now begun terrorizing the local population.



Both Talabani's Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and Barzani's Kurdistan Democratic Party are pretty unaccountable when it comes to cash, and many questions linger about the customs revenues collected at various border checkpoints. I mean, is the dough going to the public treasury or into the pockets of the Barzani or Talabani families and their hangers-on, who seem to grow richer and richer, with new marble houses and mountaintop hideouts?

Beleive what you want, I am not here to convince you for anything but use your common sense while judging both sides.

Again links to support 30,000 people dead, I recall the majority of people killed were kurds.

PKK did not only killed Turks, Kurds too but where killings occured is South Eastern Turkey in Turkish borders.

Ditto, link it.

ITF: Kurds Violated the Polls in Kerkuk

Paid Immigrants in Kerkuk

Kurds attack Turkmen office in Kirkuk

As for NI debate, it is only an example of what terrorism does to regions and people. Terrorism is brutal regardless where it is. Look at US measures since Sept 11. Can you imagine what would have been worlds reactions if Turkey attacked Iraq with the same claims of their support for terrorism? Even though Turkish security forces were operating Northern Iraq and Iran also they were close to going in war with Syria for their support to Ocalan which only stopped when Syria expelled Ocalan.

From whoisocalan

....
For almost two decades, Ocalan has operated from Syria and Syrian-occupied Lebanon. However, last October, after Turkey very nearly went to war against Syria, Damascus backed down, closed PKK camps and expelled Ocalan. First he fled to Moscow, where he has enjoyed close relations for decades. While the Russian government denied any knowledge of his whereabouts, on November 4 the Duma unanimously voted to demand that he be given asylum. Two days later, 109 socialist and communist members of the Greek Parliament - one third of the entire body - issued an invitation to Ocalan to come to Greece as "leader of the world’s most oppressed people." The collective invitation, supported by Greece’s deputy speaker Panayiotis Sgouridis, was renewed by a Greek Socialist parliamentarian in Rome, after Ocalan’s arrest. ...

Now beleive what you want, try looking at the coin's other side rather than your one sided stories, it is far deep and complicated than you think and will take decades, generations to improve the situation in the reagion.
My link might not be convincing for you as internet is full of pro pkk and kurdish and admitable Turkey does not have a good image on the net as everone operates for their benefits. But I was in Turkey in 1980s where there was not a day passed without news of people getting killed south east of Turkey. How many did you hear?

halkar

More links for Kurdish scams in Northern Iraq:

Were Assyrians, Turkmen, Yezidis Intentionally Locked Out of the Iraq Election?

Links to news from Iraqi Turkmen front

Iraqi Turkmen Document Details Kurdish Election Rigging in Iraq

Taken from last interview of Ocalan

...
During his orchestration of the PKK’s first phase, Abdullah Ocalan did not hesitate to use revolutionary violence to “foment popular resistance”. He launched offensives against “collaborators”, be they village guards, Kurdish militias, armed and paid by the government, or Turkish teachers. When women and children fell victims of these retaliations, the PKK argued that “bullets don’t have addresses” and that the families of these people had been “warned”...

mycroft

halkar wrote:

So why not build a mosque? We have far less muslim population here and there are 2 mosques. Would it be acceptable for you if you were in Turkey and there were no churches and you were to pray in basements? Abuse is abuse regardless of its form, my point is Greece is in EU, do you find any form of human rights abuse acceptable for a member of EU?

So now it's they ought to build a mosque? You originally implied the forbade a mosque, now they should build a mosque. You're right mabye they should, but thats hardly a breach of human rights.

What is wide scale? Do you think 20 million Kurds are abused in Turkey? If you are curious you can go and see how kurds live there rather than listening your girl friend's friends tales. They don't speak for all Kurds. Like all humans they want to live peacfully but that is hardly to happen under treath of terrorism where you don't know who your friend or enemy is. As I said earlier PKK did nothing but damaged their cause for decades.

I provided repeated reports of amnestys condemnation and the systematic abuse, and you then dismiss them. Then you call my first hand report as tall tales, while you want me to take your word on the matter.

Here is a link where you can read where you can see their activities and names of victims with their ages.

And again, you stated there where 30,000 victims of kurdish violence.

The above link doesn't support that claim.

Nor did you provide a link to support your claim about Oclan's "harem"

Yeah sure report me, who do you think was controlling Norther Iraqi borders and customs for past decade? Where do you think money was going?
Taken from, Letter from Irbil, Iraq

Look seriously what the f*ck is the above link, it appears to be someone ranting about not getting his hotel room. Corruption in Iraq, shock horror.

Beleive what you want, I am not here to convince you for anything but use your common sense while judging both sides.

Well with such a shabby defense, you're not going to convince me of anything.

PKK did not only killed Turks, Kurds too but where killings occured is South Eastern Turkey in Turkish borders.

And I', not disputing the PKK did stuff, it's just you entire defense, is "hey you think turkey's bad, wait till you see the other guys" and then attributing every death to the PKK, without citing figures.

ITF: Kurds Violated the Polls in Kerkuk

Paid Immigrants in Kerkuk

Kurds attack Turkmen office in Kirkuk

Okay I'll say it to you again, slowlyWHAT DOES VOTING ABUSE AND VIOLENCE IN IRAQ HAVE TO DO WITH TURKEY'S HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE

As for NI debate, it is only an example of what terrorism does to regions and people. Terrorism is brutal regardless where it is.

And who does it, state sponsored terrorism like Turkey aganist it's own people is not okay.

Look at US measures since Sept 11. Can you imagine what would have been worlds reactions if Turkey attacked Iraq with the same claims of their support for terrorism? Even though Turkish security forces were operating Northern Iraq and Iran also they were close to going in war with Syria for their support to Ocalan which only stopped when Syria expelled Ocalan.

Seriously the, hey look at the other guy defense is wearing thin.

From whoisocalan

A profile from the Assembly of Turkish Americans, gosh they wouldn't be biased at all.

Now beleive what you want, try looking at the coin's other side rather than your one sided stories, it is far deep and complicated than you think and will take decades, generations to improve the situation in the reagion.
My link might not be convincing for you as internet is full of pro pkk and kurdish and admitable Turkey does not have a good image on the net as everone operates for their benefits. But I was in Turkey in 1980s where there was not a day passed without news of people getting killed south east of Turkey. How many did you hear?

So essentially you can't find any links because the PPK a small guriella outfit have better web pr than the turkish govt?

As for the rest of the links, what are you trying to imply? that the fiasco that was the Iraq elections was the kurds fault and this justifies turkish oppression in their own country. Cause that would imply a certain racist undertone to your pov that all kurds everywhere are bad, and therefore this justifys turkish human rights abuse.

mycroft

halkar wrote:

What is Kurds got to the with woman's right protest. Why don't you stick to the subject? That was not a Kurdish demonstration.

The irony of this comment in the light of your later comments, is truly breathtaking.

gandalf

Keep this on topic please. Halkar edit those links out please. If you want to start another thread about the Kurds, Iraq, Turkey and PKK then please do.

halkar

Gandalf,
I have put those links as I was asked to provide links.

Mycroft, are they not good enough for you? Why did you not comment on this with your caps on and bold?

During his orchestration of the PKK’s first phase, Abdullah Ocalan did not hesitate to use revolutionary violence to “foment popular resistance”. He launched offensives against “collaborators”, be they village guards, Kurdish militias, armed and paid by the government, or Turkish teachers. When women and children fell victims of these retaliations, the PKK argued that “bullets don’t have addresses” and that the families of these people had been “warned”...

"Bullets don't have addresses, they have been warned" that is the mentality that went on for years. You should get the picture if not, take a look at here see if you feel weak.

Beleive what you want, I am not here to convince you of anything, sorry the topic went out of it's course but the original topic was about Kurds too and in Iraq. To answer your question "what would occur if the IRA kurds ceceded from the new Iraq state?" you should know better, it will not happen, nor Turkey, nor Iraqis nor Iran nor Syria will let that happen, world is messed up enough. My links were to show you the other side of the maddalion which you just don't want to see or hear. You have no idea about the region and people there other than what you read on the net.

And who does it, state sponsored terrorism like Turkey aganist it's own people is not okay.

I am not going to waste my time with you looking for links, read about PKK and see who suported it for years, I guess that is ok for you?

mycroft

halkar wrote:

Gandalf,
I have put those links as I was asked to provide links.

Mycroft, are they not good enough for you? Why did you not comment on this with your caps on and bold?

Because the links were either irrelevant or coming from clearly biased sources. The turkish american assembly clearly has a pro turkish agenda. It's like citing a speech from the friends of Ireland in america, as proof of a Sinn Fein claim?

"Bullets don't have addresses, they have been warned" that is the mentality that went on for years. You should get the picture if not, take a look at here see if you feel weak.

You like the pretty pictures don't you. I cited a variety of human rights organisations who don't have pro or anti turkey agenda they've a human rights agenda and you dismiss them, and then provide an impressive collection of links from sites with a clear pro turkey agenda

Beleive what you want, I am not here to convince you of anything, sorry the topic went out of it's course but the original topic was about Kurds too and in Iraq. To answer your question "what would occur if the IRA kurds ceceded from the new Iraq state?" you should know better, it will not happen, nor Turkey, nor Iraqis nor Iran nor Syria will let that happen, world is messed up enough. My links were to show you the other side of the maddalion which you just don't want to see or hear. You have no idea about the region and people there other than what you read on the net.

So basically shut up I'm not arguing with you. But why would it happen that it would be messed up? I submit your posts have shown a clear racist attitude towards kurds, be they iraqi or turkish.

And I've my opinion, supported by information on the net, first hand opinion from one turkish kurd, 2nd hand opinion from two friends of mine who spent time in turkey with a human rights organisation, and documentaries and films. I've plenty of first hand reports, and information that can be coberated on the net.

You've got inneundo (Oclan's harem, going to support that bit, you tossed in?) and propaganda.

I am not going to waste my time with you looking for links, read about PKK and see who suported it for years, I guess that is ok for you?

Ah so basically my argument is weak, I can't support it.......

Well thats a can do point of view. :rolleyes:

halkar

Because the links were either irrelevant or coming from clearly biased sources. The turkish american assembly clearly has a pro turkish agenda. It's like citing a speech from the friends of Ireland in america, as proof of a Sinn Fein claim?

Links are all about PKK, I don't have to give you any links , they are easy to find. All of those crimes that commited in the links are admitted by them. It is nothing to do with pro Turkish agenda.

You like the pretty pictures don't you. I cited a variety of human rights organisations who don't have pro or anti turkey agenda they've a human rights agenda and you dismiss them, and then provide an impressive collection of links from sites with a clear pro turkey agenda

I don't like the pictures, I have grown up with them, I have seen them everyday on the tv and media. As I have asked you before how many of those crimes that made to European media for the last 10-20 years? How many times you have heard of PKK killing children?

Maybe you prefer pro PKK links? I am not dismissing anything and I have already admitted Turkey's human rights record is bad but I have also pointed out that their record is improving where you think this was due EUs pressure but it is not. It has only started to improve after Ocalan's capture and cease fire with PKK also with the lifting of martial law in east and south east of Turkey. I am also against Turkey Eu membership though not for the same reasons you might have.

I have given NI as example and to get the picture what has been going on for decades in Turkey asked you to imagine NI ten times worst. But no that is not a good comparision for you either.
Nothing is good enough for you I guess as you dismiss many of the changes in the country last few years while you still live in the past.

When I posted you the links about Greece, you don't want to know or do you think preventing freedom of religion is not an humans right issues? You said the links does not suggest that Greece is not allowing mosques to be built in Athens and yet you seem to miss this bit:

...
Plans to build an Islamic center and mosque - the first in Athens since Ottoman times - have stalled following opposition from local residents and the powerful Greek Orthodox Church.
Estimates of the number of Muslims in Athens vary considerably - from around 50,000 to 100,000. There are also an estimated 500,000 immigrants from Albania, which has a mixed Christian and Muslim population...

So how is that for a secular EU member state? I have also asked you if Turkey did some thing similiar what would the reaction be?

So basically shut up I'm not arguing with you. But why would it happen that it would be messed up? I submit your posts have shown a clear racist attitude towards kurds, be they iraqi or turkish.

Oh now I am racist, thank you but you have no clue about me so spare me of your insults. I don't and have never hated Kurds and never seen any Turk that hates Kurds and beleive me I have seen far more Kurds and Turks than you will ever in your life time. Turks does not hate Kurds, when was the last time you heard of racist march or activities in Turkey against Kurds or any other ethnic groups in Turkey? Beleive me if there was hate between two as I said earlier Turkey would have been in a big mess now. 20 million is not a small number.

I hate PKK, a terrorist organization which have killed thousands and ruined lives of hundreds of thousands. My links to you are about PKK not about Kurds.

Also the links about Iraq was not becasue I don't like Kurds, it was because not many people know that Iraq is not all about Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish. I gave you two links, one with Assyrians and one with Turkoman, the other sizeable ethnic minorities in Northern Iraq where Iraqi Kurds thinks that they are the only ones. If you have gone through the links you should note that most of them were not allowed to vote. All issues in Northern Iraq is far complicated then you think and it does not only involves Turkey and Iraq, it also involves Syria, Iran and all region. You asked in your first post so I don't think it was a diversion of the thread.

It's also worth pointing out that throwing up photos from Genoa the week after a court case started investigating senior officers behaviour during the school Diaz raid, shall we compare that to show trials of Kurdish leaders?

Nope, maybe not but lets compare this, at least Kurdish terrorist leaders are alive to get a trial. Unlike others, Turkey did not blast them in bits or invaded countries because they beleive they were supporting terrorism or flatten towns. I am not only talking about US, some EU countries also supported their actions and both you and I know who they are.

We have also seen both US and UK actions in Iraqi jails, they are both considered far democratic than Turkey in many people's minds.

And I've my opinion, supported by information on the net, first hand opinion from one turkish kurd, 2nd hand opinion from two friends of mine who spent time in turkey with a human rights organisation, and documentaries and films. I've plenty of first hand reports, and information that can be coberated on the net.

Plenty of first hand reports? From what? Net? your sources? One turkish kurd and 2nd hand opinion from two friends that might have been there for 2 weeks hardly make you an expert on the issues and what happened and what is happening in Turkey. Good that you can find all that stuff on the net, my sources are not only net, on a daily base from local tvs, media and friends both Turkish and Kurdish. I have yet to hear anything pro-Turkish from you.

You've got inneundo (Oclan's harem, going to support that bit, you tossed in?) and propaganda.

It is there, in the books of ex PKK members, if you don't know, maybe your reliable first hand opinion might help you. I'll describe Ocalan to you simply: "Bin Ladin X 10 ".

Was your post really about woman's protest in Turkey or about Kurdish issues there because you have a Kurdish friend and two other friends that was in Turkey?

There are more than 80 cities in Turkey where there were marches on the same day and there was no troubles except the one in Istanbul and it went all wrong, it is been investigated just like Diaz case which was far worst and was in Europe.

As I said before, I have yet to see any pro-Turkish comment from you, but you were quick enough to label me racist because I don't like PKK and their leaders and because I have given some links about their activities.

One last thing, please stop threating me with your "i'll report you to mods" nonsense as far as I am concerned I have stayed with your topic which included, Turkey, Iraq and Kurds, police violance and human rights both in EU and Turkey. If you don't like what you hear go stick you head back to the sand and continue living in the past.

I repeat again, we have yet to see World Cup in Germany next year with possible Germany, UK and Turkey in it.

gandalf

OK I asked nicely thread closed as its gone off topic. Halkar one more false step and I will ban you. If you want to start a new thread about the Kurds, PKK & Turkey then please, do not hijack another thread !