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Heat Recovery Ventilation

  • 15-03-2005 6:32pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭


    Has anyone who contributes to this forum actually installed HRV and what is their opinion of it?

    I have reserarched it a fair bit but am put off by the cost (average quote approx €3000 for 220m2 house)

    I am dubious about its benefits in energy saved outweighing its cost.
    One of the attractive features is the constantly changing air (no stuffiness in rooms, fresh warmed air )

    There is another product that is much cheaper from NUAIRE called DRIMASTER this provides positive ventilation for the house at much cheaper cost (approx 700 yoyos)

    And so a repeat of the original question is anyone actually using this?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭woolymammoth


    tbh, i wouldn't be put off by the cost. the cost might seem high now, but over the next decade or two, chances are you'll save more than the cost of it now.

    if i was building/had my own home, i'd be looking at all the eco friendly energy saving alternatives out there, simply because a small investment in them now and you'll be paying smaller energy bills for years. plus you'll be able to adapt better when we hit an energy crisis in the next 20 odd years, and that will happen unless some other lovely alternative is found soon, in which case your HRV and every other energy saving device will spiral straight out of your price range.

    enjoy the future.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭rooferPete


    Hi Wollymammoth,

    I think that is a great link you have behind "future", I have been of a similar mind myself for a long time.

    Sorry for going O/T

    I think heat exchangers will become a part of the modern home, the more we insulate and seal our homes against what was classed as standard ventilation the more these systems will be needed.

    The initial outlay of the first system works out at about €0.73 per square foot, compared to the next system at 25% of the cost Iwould be asking what is the difference ?

    Usually these "new to us" systems have side issues such as running costs and efficiency, also the ability to clean sufficient quantities of air while performing the other listed tasks.

    As to the prices rising or falling there are two arguments, one being cost efficient production due to the ecomonies of scale, the other being the introduction of newer more advanced technology.

    If I had to answer the question tomorrow I think I would do it after going through each detail preferably supplied by an indepenant lab test, the chances based on the knowledge to hand are about 50 / 50 as to who has the best system, it could be the more expensive or it could be the cheaper one has achieved the economies of scale and efficiency already.

    Not much good to you I know, but if possible you could fit the duct work now and decide on the running system later.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Doper Than U


    I'm hoping to go for that myself, and I don't see the 3000 euro as being too high a price in a new build. I was wondering though, does it keep the house cool in summer, or does it just "do" warm?

    Also of interest to those wondering about the "future" in the link above is www.energybulletin.net - it's a brilliant site.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Goll Mac Morna


    Thank you all for your positive replies re: HRV it really is s good idea in principle and as a previous poster put it, it is not that high a price to pay in a ne w build for the fact that you can have a 'sealed' house with no draughts.

    I was totally for the system 6 months ago, but have been getting cold feet from all the naysayers who contend that it's a lot to pay.

    I also got a gonk and was put off pellet boilers recently as the one I wanted
    the FROLING P2 is about €10,000 and is about the size of a HOUSE.

    In answer to another question re: cooling, a summer bypass can be fitted for a few hundred that will allow you to use the system in the non heating season with no heat recovery.

    Added benefits of the systems include no stale air in rooms, no need for vents in bathrooms, no need for trickle vents in windows, however one minus is that the system manufacturers do not recommend connecting your cooker hood to the system (due to problems with grease in the ducting).

    I have talked to 2 people who have the system installed in low energy houses and they say that they would not live without it.

    Another benefit is that the system can distribute warm air around the house e.g. from a roof that is heated by a wood stove, the heat will travel throughout the house. We are also planning on have a supply and return in our sunroom so that the rising heat building up in the sunroom during the day will be distributed around the house.

    Another point note that I mention stove --using an open chimney or "hole to the sky" will seriously compromise the HRV.

    I have received quotes from a couple of companies BROOK, FINHEAT, VILLAVENT and HEATING AND VENTILATION Ireland.

    I could post the quotes up here but to be fair to the companies and the varying qualities of their equipment etc. I don't think it is fair to list them here PM me if you want them.

    I think it was CARPENTER who mentioned putting in the ducting youurself, this is a good idea as one company in particular was looking to charge €1,500 for installation (a nice little earner).
    Also the price of the 100mm diameter ducting varies greatly, averages on one quote @ €10 per M.
    (anyone got any ideas on the price of this ductiing or plastic ducting)

    I woudn't mind getting the ducting myself and getting the system installed by someone other than the company, but I wouldn't like to make a liathróid of the job.
    BTW VILLAVENT do DIY versions of both HRV and Central VACUUM systems.
    check GOOGLE


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Goll Mac Morna


    The HRV systems can also provide total heating via the air ducts by using an air heating element (running on electricity) or they can 'draw' heat from your hot water cylinder by attaching an element type thing into the CYLINDER


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭rooferPete


    Hi Golla,

    Air central heating systems were popular for a while in the 1970's, No I'm not that old :) but I do remember them and I remember them being taken out.

    Bord Gais or Dublin Gas at the time had a system and there were some oil systems, same principle just different fuels, I think the ESB had system as well but I'm not sure about them.

    The disadvantages were the heated air was very "Dry" and caused some people discomfort and the areas around the grills were impossible to keep clean.

    Of course these problems could have been addressed by now, it's just something to be mindful of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    I wouldn't live in a house without HRV. It was a standard spec in my house and the health benefits of having fresh air outweigh the installation cost.

    The summer bypass setting is on from May to Sep. Bathroom dries quickly, Dry air in winter is an issue, but perhaps no more an issue than the usual heating ventilation setup. Also the air is filtered and so must be an improvement for hayfever sufferers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Goll Mac Morna


    Thanks Mothman it's great to hear real experiende of using Heat Recovery Ventilation.
    Every person I have spoken to has said that they would not live without it, time now to decide which system to choose!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    Another point that may be overlooked, is the need to insulate the ducting. I would imagine that most installations would have ducting in the uninsulated (cold) areas, as is the case in my house.

    If I think of other issues I'll mention them here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭JimiMac


    I am considering installing a HRV system during refurbishment of existing house.
    Has anybody done this?
    Can anybody recommend a fairly decent system that is not excessively priced/
    For that matter what sort of money are we talking about? (Standard 2-storey with attic conversion?)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Viking House


    Hi Jimi

    I am talking to suppliers at the moment because I want to offer HRV at a very competitive price to costomers who we are doing renovations for.
    I am presently looking at high quality Polish solar panels, HRV and wood pellet boilers.
    I will keep you posted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭JimiMac


    Ok Thanks Viking House,
    is there a fairly standard method of routing the ducting?

    Jim


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Viking House


    For the moment just run four/five duct pipes to your attic, extract from your bathroom/toilets and kitchen and pump the hot fresh air back into your living areas.

    Fresh air is one of the most important aspects of health.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭Do-more


    JimiMac wrote:
    Ok Thanks Viking House,
    is there a fairly standard method of routing the ducting?
    Jim

    When ducting from the kitchen keep the inlet away from the cooker, as grease will bung up the heat exchanger plates reducing efficency.

    (And definetly don't duct the extractor hood to the HRV!)

    invest4deepvalue.com



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭Do-more


    JimiMac wrote:
    Ok Thanks Viking House,
    is there a fairly standard method of routing the ducting?

    Jim

    Jim - also bear in mind that air doesn't like going around sharp bends, so don't use any sharp 90 deg bends, if the duct must turn, use as big an arc as is possible. Similarly don't T all your ducts into a manifold prior to the HRV unit, rather connect them in a series of Y's 4-2-1 into the unit. Just remember to keep the airflow in the ducts as smooth and straight as poosible.

    invest4deepvalue.com



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 AnnaThe


    I have HRV in my house for the past 6 years and I am not happy with it for the following reasons:

    1. There does not appear to be any way to clean the inside of the ducting
    2. When I queried this with the supplier he advised me that only the outside of the terminals need to be cleaned
    3. Despite doing research he admitted to me that he had never checked a ducting to see how clean/dirty it was (at least he was honest)
    4. The air coming out of the terminals in the winter is cold
    5. The supplier did not work closely with the builder because
    (a) there is an open fireplace in my house (a no-no for heat recovery)
    (b) the internal doors have a seal around them (another non-no for heat recovery)
    (c) at no stage of the build was the house tested for air-tightness
    6. The filters need replacing at least once a year and currently cost 50e for a pair
    6a. Two neighbours switched off their heat recovery immediately when they independently calculated the cost of running it.
    7. For my new build I approached the supplier above and he quoted me a price from drawings only i.e. he did not visit the new house.
    8. I approached another supplier and asked him what level of air tightness does he recommend and he responded "As tight as possible" which is not a sufficient answer.
    9. Both suppliers appear to me to have had very few customers.

    So, basically I am beginning to lose hope...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,787 ✭✭✭prospect


    Hi Anna,

    Sounds like your issue is with the specification and installation of your system, and not the actual concept of a HRV system.

    I had an absolute nightmare with our underfloor heating system. Although the temptation is there to knock underfloor systems, the reality is that our one was just badly installed and rendered useless.


    I have a long term plan to retrofit a HRV system in our place, but before I do I'll be getting all the basics right, like adequate insulation and draught prevention.


    I hope it gets sorted for you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,908 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    AnnaThe wrote: »
    I have HRV in my house for the past 6 years and I am not happy with it for the following reasons:

    1. There does not appear to be any way to clean the inside of the ducting
    2. When I queried this with the supplier he advised me that only the outside of the terminals need to be cleaned
    3. Despite doing research he admitted to me that he had never checked a ducting to see how clean/dirty it was (at least he was honest)
    4. The air coming out of the terminals in the winter is cold
    5. The supplier did not work closely with the builder because
    (a) there is an open fireplace in my house (a no-no for heat recovery)
    (b) the internal doors have a seal around them (another non-no for heat recovery)
    (c) at no stage of the build was the house tested for air-tightness
    6. The filters need replacing at least once a year and currently cost 50e for a pair
    6a. Two neighbours switched off their heat recovery immediately when they independently calculated the cost of running it.
    7. For my new build I approached the supplier above and he quoted me a price from drawings only i.e. he did not visit the new house.
    8. I approached another supplier and asked him what level of air tightness does he recommend and he responded "As tight as possible" which is not a sufficient answer.
    9. Both suppliers appear to me to have had very few customers.

    So, basically I am beginning to lose hope...

    Anna you should post this in construction and planning. The guys over there will be able to answer your queries. 99% of the people over there endorse MHRV so they should be able to point you in the right direction.


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