A Player's Charter For The Industry.

DeVore

Hi there,

The recurring theme of the way tournies are run has come up here so many times (and I've been in the thick of it myself) that I was sitting here thinking about a standardised way of doing things, something that we the players can thrust in front of organisers and say "will you be following this?".

So I've made a first thrust attempt at it. Can you guys have a look over this and see if I've missed anything. Its very much in favour of the players but since it voluntary and unenforceable organisers can ignore it if thy wish. However we can then ignore them. Theres enough choice of tournies that we as players should be choosy about where we spend our tanks and this is a quick way for us to know that its all going to be above board.

You'll note that its practically identical to how things are run in the card clubs but I have made no remarks about the % that the Registration should be.... if someone wants to run a 100 game on a cruise ship and charge 200 registration, hey... no problem. As long as thats clear.

So, here's my first stab at it... feedback and suggestions please!

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Player's Charter:

1. The cost of Entry, rebuys, topups and registration must be clearly advertised before the event. All buyins, rebuys and topups must remain in the prizepool and be redistributed as prizes to the winners. All running costs and expenses must be covered from the registration fee and the number of rebuys and top ups must be recorded and freely available to the players on demand, broken down by player so that each may check what has been recorded against him. ie: full transparency.

2. If the game is a charity or fund raising event, the amount or formula for the amount to be taken for the charity/organisation must be clearly explained in the advertising. eg: "€50+5 freezeout with €35 going to the prize fund and €15 to the charity" or "€20+5 rebuy, half of the rebuys and topups going to the charity!"

3. The blinds will not increase more then double each level and each level will be no shorter then 15 mins, preferably 20. The total blinds structure will be available to the players on demand well before the game. See appendix A.

4. All tournaments with a registration fee of 5 euro or more will be dealt by a non-playing dealers. The tournament director must be named before the event.

5. The structure of the tournament and the nature of rebuys, topups and the rules regarding them will not be changed once the tournament has begun and should only change from advertised under extreme circumstances. In such an event the players must be informed of the change before the first hand is dealt and a full refund offered without quibble.

6. Rebuys and topups will not be less then 1/2 the original entry fee.

7. The organisers of the event must be stated clearly. ie: "€100+10 Freezeout, €4000 guarunteed. Organised by PokerTourniesAreUs Ltd"

8. After topups are finished, the players have a right to know how many prizes will be paid out ie: 18 places will be paid.


Appendix A:
A recommended blind structure for a 2000 chip rebuy tournie is:
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
800/1500
1K/2K
1.5K/3K
2K/4K
3K/6K
4k/8K
5k/10K
10K/20K <---- blinds freeze at this level.
All blinds are 20 minutes in length.

---

DeV.

amp

DeVore wrote:

7. The organisers of the event must be stated clearly. ie: "€100+10 Freezeout, €4000 guarunteed. Organised by PokerTourniesAreUs Ltd"

Sometimes "Guaranteed" = "Limited to". This should be made clear if it's going to be limited to a certain amount.

NickyOD

Agree wilth all above.

One point about non playing dealers. I know ther are some new cardrooms trying to get off the ground and have tournaments with playing dealers but plan to phase that out, but like you said you can chose to play those or not.

jem

To a large extent our event will conform to mush of the above in so far as it relates to charity events.
I would say(and it doesn't effect our game) that compairing a stand alone tourney to the likes of the merrion and fitz is unfair. The latter makes its money from blackjack etc etc and also from the cash games. while where there is just a tourney you are not allowing them to make any money realy if they followed your rules.
With our game we are trying to get some sponsorship+redg fee to cover most of the initial costs so that all the money paid for poker will go in prizes and to St V de P.
as soon as the money is counted we will announce the pay out and the split.

We expect that the splip will be either 70/30 or 75/25. We will post this closer the event when we have an idea of numbers.

the number of rebuys and top ups must be recorded and freely available to the players on demand, broken down by player so that each may check what has been recorded against him. ie: full transparency.

I have to say that in our event this will not happen. from a practical point of view.There is no way that when we are running around giving out rebuys & topupsthat we are writing down who did the rebuy, entering all this info on a computer to be able to print out what each payer paid out. I honestly cant see this happening with hopefully 300 playing, remember this is for charity we are not geting anything for all our work.

One other thing what happens if say at 2.00am there is still 40 players left. I would assume that players won't want to play all night. therefore I would sugest that if this happens that the blinds would have to increase more and possibly quicker. This could only be known on the night as it progresses. By your "rules" this couldn't happen.
I would also point out that for the vast majority of players don't realy give a dam. They are there for the fun and to play the game.

Shortstack

I agree with all of your post Dev, apart from the bit about all reg fees over €5 having non playing dealers. Unless a private event is sponsored it cannot be expected to provide dealers for the whole event. I believe dealers get about €75 a night ( correct me if you would dealers) plus tips. If you run a 150 runner €50+€5 event then an organisers 'take' before costs is €750. At 10 per table you will need 15 dealers which is 15 * €75 = €1125. This means just to pay the dealers you will need to take an additional €375 in fees for STT as people get knocked out. This does not make a good business model for anyone looking to run tournaments.

Bigger buy in tournaments over €100 you can charge 10% reg and make a profit still supplying dealers if you get a good number of entries.

Unless sponsored, private events cannot offer the same value for players. There are ways for a private organiser to cut costs. For example plenty of hotels will provide a room free if you are bringing over 100 drinking poker players on a usually quiet night.

Rather than looking for value in the fees for these tournaments, players should be looking at the edge they may have in a field which is likely to be weaker than the usual at the Fitz or Merrion.

I would suggest that dealers are employed for the money stages of a tournament as a minimum. If there is a sponsor there is no excuse for not having them throughout.

As for charity events, the way forward for them is to announce the payout before the event. Personally I don't give two hoots if a charity event is paying out only 25% of the pool if the money is going to a good cause. These events are usually good craic and you would spend the buy in on a good night in the pub anyway. If you are running a charity €50 event then pay a grand to first and money to the rest of the final table. The way poker is going you should easily raise a lot of money if it is well marketed and run.

DeVore

I *wish* dealers got paid 75 a night!!

Ok, I've had some great feedback here and privately. I'm going to offer some tweaks and changes below but first a few points.

I never said the reg fee had to be 10% you can announce a 50+20 game if you like, to cover your costs but what I want is HONESTY and TRANSPARENCY. I want the players to know whats in the pot and that its STAYING there. I'll up the reg limit to 10 euro before dealers are "required" to allow some wiggle-room for the organisers.

I'm sorry Jem but I've run big tournies myself and we've always noted not only who bought a rebuy but how many and if they have paid or not and if they can have a topup or not.

The biggest scams I've been at are where there are rebuys (usually considerably cheaper then the buy-in cost) and noone has ANY clue how many were bought and at the end of the night a very suspiciously low number of rebuys is announced and noone can say diddly about it. The rest of them find their way into the organisers pocket so that stays in!

Any organiser can simply ignore this charter, do their own thing but I'm going to ask players (bloggers, writers, etc) to adopt this as a baseline for decent tournies and also ask the sponsors and organisers if their tournies are going to adhere to them.

To that end I went to my boss in Paddys this morning and showed him a copy of it and his opinion is in agreement with mine. I can tell you now, any tournies I run and any tournies that Paddy Powers Poker is associated with will conform to this players charter.

I'm pure stone cold determined about this.

DeV.

DeVore

V1.1

Player's Charter:

1. The cost of Entry, rebuys, topups and registration must be clearly advertised before the event. All buyins, rebuys and topups must remain in the prizepool and be redistributed as prizes to the winners. All running costs and expenses must be covered from the registration fee and/or sponsorship. The number of rebuys and top ups must be recorded and freely available to the players on demand, broken down by player so that each may check what has been recorded against him. ie: full transparency.

2. If the game is a charity or fund raising event, the amount or formula for the amount to be taken for the charity/organisation must be clearly explained in the advertising. eg: "€50+5 freezeout with €35 going to the prize fund and €15 to the charity" or "€20+5 rebuy, half of the rebuys and topups going to the charity!"

3. The blinds will not increase more then double each level and each level will be no shorter then 15 mins without prior warning or agreement with the players. The total blinds structure will be available to the players on demand well before the game. See appendix A.
This point applies to offline games only. Online games frequently run speed-poker and other variants and hands are dealt quicker so shorter blinds are more usual.

4. All tournaments with a registration fee of 10 euro or more will be dealt by a non-playing dealers throughout. The tournament director must be named before the event.

5. The structure of the tournament and the nature of rebuys, topups and the rules regarding them will not be changed once the tournament has begun without the agreement of the players and should only change from advertised under extreme circumstances. In such an event the players must be informed of the change before the first hand is dealt and a full refund offered without quibble.
If in the later stages of the tournie the players agree to changes in order to facilitate an early finish or for other reasons, then agreement must be unaninmous.

6. Rebuys and topups will not be less then 1/2 the original entry fee.

7. The organisers of the event must be stated clearly. ie: "€100+10 Freezeout, €4000 guarunteed. Organised by PokerTourniesAreUs Ltd"

8. After topups are finished, the players have a right to know how many prizes will be paid out ie: 18 places will be paid.

9. A "guarunteed" prize pool means that the figure "guarunteed" is the minimum the prizepool will be. If the buy-ins rebuys and topups exceed this figure, the prizepool should increase accordingly. The prizepool should NOT be capped (ie: limited to) this figure.


Appendix A:
A recommended blind structure for a 2000 chip rebuy tournie is:
25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
800/1500
1K/2K
1.5K/3K
2K/4K
3K/6K
4k/8K
5k/10K
10K/20K <---- blinds freeze at this level.
All blinds are 20 minutes in length.

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DeV.

DeVore

Needless to say, any promotion of any event on this site from this day forward will be CONDITIONAL on agreement and adherence to this charter.

DeV.

NickyOD

What about ante structure? In Galway blinds went from 100/200 at level 4 to 200/400/25 at level 5. So they skipped a blind level and introduced an ante, but isn't it the norm for antes to be only introduced to the current blind level. I'd never seen a tournament before where an ante is introduced as well as a hike in blinds. The nature of low buy ins means the structure is steep anyway but do people feel that's accepatable?

Imposter

I realise you are trying to define what is acceptable from a players point of view but surely if tournaments are organised with full disclosure of information like the requirements that used to be used here on this forum then players would be able to decide if they want to play or not. Trying to force this charter on organisers might see a lot less tournaments which is not good for the game. Perhaps having a 'best practice' structure might be good but I think this charter as you have it written falls somewhere between a best practice structure and a gun to put to the heads of organisers.

The bits in your charter that I don't particularly agree you should 'force' on the organisers are:
- no capped prizepools - let them do it but they must state that it's capped
- blind levels - again should be up to the organiser but should be published. Some people might prefer faster blind structures
- having to have dealers - but they must advertise what they will have
- Rebuys and top-up amounts - again should be up to the organisers but published

jem

DeVore wrote:

I *wish* dealers got paid 75 a night!!


I'm sorry Jem but I've run big tournies myself and we've always noted not only who bought a rebuy but how many and if they have paid or not and if they can have a topup or not.

The biggest scams I've been at are where there are rebuys (usually considerably cheaper then the buy-in cost) and noone has ANY clue how many were bought and at the end of the night a very suspiciously low number of rebuys is announced and noone can say diddly about it. The rest of them find their way into the organisers pocket so that stays in!

Any organiser can simply ignore this charter, do their own thing but I'm going to ask players (bloggers, writers, etc) to adopt this as a baseline for decent tournies and also ask the sponsors and organisers if their tournies are going to adhere to them.

To that end I went to my boss in Paddys this morning and showed him a copy of it and his opinion is in agreement with mine. I can tell you now, any tournies I run and any tournies that Paddy Powers Poker is associated with will conform to this players charter.

I'm pure stone cold determined about this.

DeV.

Hi dev,
I can see where you are comming from BUT,
If an organiser doesn't wish to comform to your ideas that should be ok. You don't have to attend. I am not trying to be smart here.
Because of the fact that ours is for charity we will be keeping it all above board. our committie consists of:
A doctor, an accountant, a publican, a revenue official, and 3 other businessmen. there is no way in the world anyof us would allow ourselves be tainted in any way for a few hundred euro.it wont happen.
I would sugest that the listing that was earlier made a stickie be used when someone wants to post details of a tourney with questions like the blinds being posted and answers given. then players can decide whether or not they want to play.
some people might not give a dam what the payouts % is etc they just want a good night out. these people can be also catered for.

If in the later stages of the tournie the players agree to changes in order to facilitate an early finish or for other reasons, then agreement must be unaninmous.

I would sugest that agreement must be by the majority, otherwise you could have say 100 players left in with 99 agreeing to speed up and one against, the one could hold up everyone.

I basically agree with Imposter.

DeVore

Imposter wrote:

Perhaps having a 'best practice' structure might be good but I think this charter as you have it written falls somewhere between a best practice structure and a gun to put to the heads of organisers.

I'm not putting a gun to ANYONES head, I'm saying that if you want my money, and you want to use my site to promote it then these are my rules.

I'm suggesting that other players adopt this charter and form something akin to a loose cabal of players who simply refuse to attend tournies that are not run in accordance to this charter. Organisers can simply give me the finger and continue on, its not like you need a license from Tom Murphy to organise a tournie but I can tell you now that I wont be attending tournies that are not run on this basis. I think you'll find that when you've been ripped off once you'll be in agreement too. Many of the players here have had that experience and are NOT happy about it either.

The bits in your charter that I don't particularly agree you should 'force' on the organisers are:
- no capped prizepools - let them do it but they must state that it's capped

You cant say its a 50+5 game and then say that its capped at 3000 notes. In that case its a 55 game with dreadful value for the players.

They can announce its capped or not capped in giantic letters for all I care, but if its capped then its not in adherence to this charter. Whether that makes a monkeys uncle of a difference is up to the free market to decide.
Capped games favour only one person, the organiser. This is a players charter and one I think is fair. If you disagree, feel free to play capped tournies!

- blind levels - again should be up to the organiser but should be published. Some people might prefer faster blind structures

Ok, lets consider that. Personally I think it promotes gamble-fests but I'm open to feedback from players. I'm determined that they shouldnt be more then doubled any level and I wouldnt play in a game that had less then 15 minute blinds. Remember this is to protect players from unscrupulous operators who, once they have your money, simply hike the blinds to get you out of the premises. If you think that doesnt happen, I traveled to Mayo recently where they blinds went from 400/800 to 1000/2000! And that was BEFORE the break.

- having to have dealers - but they must advertise what they will have

If I'm paying a reg fee of 10 euros I want to be dealt to. I dont want to have to deal myself and I dont want some monkey who doesnt know what a blind is or a burn card is dealing to me. I think if you are paying 100 punds a table you deserve a dealer. Stop putting up with crap service and lousy deals.

- Rebuys and top-up amounts - again should be up to the organisers but published

You mean that I shouldnt be specifying that they should be no less then half the buyin? I'll presume thats what you mean. Thats to protect the initial stake and to identify the dodgy operators. I've never seen a straight up game where the rebuys were even a euro less then the buy-in. Can you tell me if there are any such games you know of that arent crooked? I think its a good guideline personally. Anyone else have feelings about it?

DeV.

Imposter

DeV,

Sorry about the gun to the head thing, it's not exactly what I meant! What I was getting at there is that while it is your site and you are free to have whatever rules you see fit, I think forcing anyone who wants to advertise their games here to comply with this, enforces a set of standards that you want to see in tourneys and not necessarily what everyone else thinks is important. I just think it would be better to let them advertise using guidelines similar to the old ones and then let us complain about it then. That way the organisers may get more players but they will also get feedback, which if they choose to use it could make the games better for everyone.

Personally, I agree with most of your points about what makes a good tourney, but as you've indicated in your charter there are people who like speed type tournaments online. What's to say these people don't exist offline as well? Similarly, perhaps there are people like Nicky in Limierick and elsewhere who are glad of any tournament he can find in his area even if it means he has to deal himself until the final table.

mewso

You could say that if they want to advertise a tournament then they have to state whether it is compliant to the Irish Poker Players Tournament Charter (IPPTC Compliant or Not IPPTC Compliant). I think then we could criticse organisers who are not compliant but who may well be willing to learn or improve there setup.
Unfortunately it is true that people exist who like speed tournaments. Unfortunately for them as far as I'm concerned they are not poker players and these are not poker tournaments. If you like a speed tournament then get 9 players, all of ye throw a tenner in the pot and deal out one card. Highest wins. You'll get in loads of games and I don't have to see it called poker

jem

Imposter wrote:

DeV,

What I was getting at there is that while it is your site and you are free to have whatever rules you see fit, I think forcing anyone who wants to advertise their games here to comply with this, enforces a set of standards that you want to see in tourneys and not necessarily what everyone else thinks is important. I just think it would be better to let them advertise using guidelines similar to the old ones and then let us complain about it then. That way the organisers may get more players but they will also get feedback, which if they choose to use it could make the games better for everyone..

I agree totally. The vast majority of players that I expect at our CHARITY tourney will be playing for fun. And it will be their first tourney.

Imposter wrote:

Similarly, perhaps there are people like Nicky in Limierick and elsewhere who are glad of any tournament he can find in his area even if it means he has to deal himself until the final table.

Likewise here in Roscrea, Co.Tipperary.Those in Dublin can play damneer any night they want in the card clubs, who make their money in many ways, a tourney down the country does not have these options.We went to the tourney in the gresham, not realy giving a dam about the prize fund, in fact I still don't know what the winner got. There are loads of players like us.

DeV wrote:

,

They can announce its capped or not capped in giantic letters for all I care, but if its capped then its not in adherence to this charter. Whether that makes a monkeys uncle of a difference is up to the free market to decide.
Capped games favour only one person, the organiser. This is a players charter and one I think is fair. If you disagree, feel free to play capped tournies!.

but if you dont let people post then people wont know about the games.

DeV,
I sugest that you allow people post their tourneys, If you don't like the tourney don't go and post on the tread why. That way people will know about the tourneys and will also know what you feel should be they way it is run. I think the stickie is good.

As to a large extent we will be complying in the charity section I hope you will still come to tipp for the pissup if nothing else. BYTW tickets will be available from Monday next.

DeVore

jem wrote:

Hi dev,
I can see where you are comming from BUT,
If an organiser doesn't wish to comform to your ideas that should be ok. You don't have to attend. I am not trying to be smart here.

Fair enough. I'm not being smart either but its my money and its my site too so if they want to get my money, or use my site, then these are my rules. They are welcome to run a 1+50 game capped at 2 euro for all I care, but from this point forward, once we have agreed the charter between us, the players will know at a glance that its a level game by the very fact that its publicised here or that the organiser has agreed to the charter.

Because of the fact that ours is for charity we will be keeping it all above board. our committie consists of:
A doctor, an accountant, a publican, a revenue official, and 3 other businessmen. there is no way in the world anyof us would allow ourselves be tainted in any way for a few hundred euro.it wont happen.

I appreciate that and I believe you. The fact is that I dont know you from adam and there are more then a few dodgy operators floating around.
I'm not for a moment suggesting you are, so if you have a specific problem with the charter then put it out here, I want to be fair to the honest operators as much as I want to nail the scammers.

I would sugest that the listing that was earlier made a stickie be used when someone wants to post details of a tourney with questions like the blinds being posted and answers given. then players can decide whether or not they want to play.

Its a whole lot simpler and shorter to simply state that you are in adherence to the charter. Why do you NOT want to agree to it?

some people might not give a dam what the payouts % is etc they just want a good night out. these people can be also catered for.

And they still can. They can go bet on the lotto too which I personally consider a tax on the stupid. This charter is simply a way for US PLAYERS to know when we are travelling and paying accom to go to an event, that its a straight game and we arent going to be told at the end of the night that they'll respect us in the morning.

I would sugest that agreement must be by the majority, otherwise you could have say 100 players left in with 99 agreeing to speed up and one against, the one could hold up everyone.

So if you are the small stack, and 8 of 9 players (excluding you!) agree to raise the blinds to be the same as your stack, you think thats fair?

All deals and changes to rules at a table must be unaninmous, its one of the oldest rules in the book and one of the few that EVERYONE agrees on.


DeV.

DeVore

Ok hang on a second.

I will consider allowing boards to be used for non compliant tournies (note: we havent even FINALISED what this charter IS yet) for the reasons Muso gives.

What I find hilarious is the idea that by imposing these conditions on the use of Boards space, I'm some how being very unfair to the organisers....

Ok, so lets turn this around? Where's my money? Wheres my cut? Boards doesnt run itself you know. I dont do that, I dont operate like that and I dont think like that but I find it objectionable that what I allow or disallow on Boards is some how an infringement of their right to advertise what *I* consider hooky tournaments that are damaging my favourite card game.

Sorry, can someone explain that to me?

DeV.

DeVore

Ok, before I get really annoyed, I've counted to ten and think that Muso/imposter is right, for the reasons Muso gives. I think its unbelievable presumtious to imply that just because Boards is successful I shouldn't be allowed to decide the terms under which people get to use it, I do that all the time with civility, pornography, commercial sales, pimping, spamming and a number of other areas/topics. The fact is that I believe I've made GOOD choices that people like and agree with. Hence the sucess of the site.

However, on the other hand I see musos point about educating them and what have you. I am going to be the worlds most unmitigated c*nt about this though, so expect to see me sticking it right to tournie advertisers when they pop up.

I'm still instistent on the questions that are stickied being answered whether they are IPPTC compliant or not. (Thanks for the name Muso!).

DeV.

DeVore

Can we get back now to the minutae of the charter?

Jem, you seem like a straight up guy, what part of the charter would you have problems with? Is there any of it you wont be adhering to? If not, why... whats the problem?

Remember I want to protect players but I also want to isolate and identify honest operators who are organising an honest game. This is kind of like a quality mark that organisers should be HAPPY to see as it will distinguish them from the low lifes.

Already I have thought of one thing that isnt covered. What if someone is taking money from the pot for a BIG tournie later on. My view is that so long as its announced on the night and so long as ALL of that money gets paid out to players later on, thats fine with me. Anyone got any thoughts about this?

DeV.

bohsman

Jem

While some people may play for fun a lot of us play either for a living or for the extra money personally I dont mind charity tournaments taking x% but I feel they need to let it be known how much and its sounds good if youre able to tell people how much in the prizepool instead of picking a figure out of the air (like Castlebar) If you keep a record of rebuys its a lot easier to add up the prizepool at the break

I think charity tournies should be kept seperate but let it be known and dont expect people to come for "poker" Other than that there is no reason for tournaments to not comply

Shortstack

jem wrote:

We expect that the splip will be either 70/30 or 75/25. We will post this closer the event when we have an idea of numbers.

This should be posted before you start taking registrations, charity or not. It is about transparency and about your image of being legit. Not committing to a prize fund gives no confidence. If it was in my area I would come whatever the split but only if advertised and not changed.

jem wrote:

I have to say that in our event this will not happen. from a practical point of view.There is no way that when we are running around giving out rebuys & topupsthat we are writing down who did the rebuy, entering all this info on a computer to be able to print out what each payer paid out. I honestly cant see this happening with hopefully 300 playing, remember this is for charity we are not geting anything for all our work.

This statement worries me greatly. If you have people giving out rebuys, it would not take much for them to ask the name of the player who is getting it. As a businessman, I know it is not being able to say you are honest that counts but being able to prove it. You cannot be expected to be taken at your word by people who don't know you, Doctors,Lawyers or not.

One other thing what happens if say at 2.00am there is still 40 players left. I would assume that players won't want to play all night. therefore I would sugest that if this happens that the blinds would have to increase more and possibly quicker. This could only be known on the night as it progresses. By your "rules" this couldn't happen.
I would also point out that for the vast majority of players don't realy give a dam. They are there for the fun and to play the game.

When you are running a tournament that every one has paid into then you cannot change something without everyones consent. It may seem democratic and fair to do it by majority and you may be right that most people don't give a damn, but in reality it is not an election and also with experience you will find if you change things halfway through a lot of people may say they are happy with but really they won't be and just won't come next time.
If you organise the structure and start time correctly then you won't have this problem anyway.


In short, if you want respect in a business you must be up front about everything you do and be completely transparent. You cannot expect people to trust you just because you all have good jobs.

Dev has a truly valid point with this charter and this community contributes a lot to poker in Ireland. I for one will be fully behind creating a charter for tournaments in Ireland.

I agree with the points that Imposter makes:

The bits in your charter that I don't particularly agree you should 'force' on the organisers are:
- no capped prizepools - let them do it but they must state that it's capped
- blind levels - again should be up to the organiser but should be published. Some people might prefer faster blind structures
- having to have dealers - but they must advertise what they will have
- Rebuys and top-up amounts - again should be up to the organisers but published

It is all about clarity.
Nobody has to follow it. I would however like to see that any tournaments advertised on here have to state whether they comply to it or not.

BrendanB

To be honest, the more we talk about this the more it's an issue. There's a greyish area here, because we talk about the different tournaments in the dublin clubs all the time, and post incomplete bits and bobs about lots of other tournaments. You have been noted to be preoccupied with a certain large buyin event in the near future That's all grand, and to be honest I don't really see the problem we're trying to address here, beyond the disclosure guidelines already in place.

Tom, while I personally agree with almost everything in the charter as the making of a good tournament and dislike Jems approach, I'm a little uncomfortable with how this thread is going. I mean all the following in the nicest possible way.

I think its unbelievable presumtious to imply that just because Boards is successful I shouldn't be allowed to decide the terms under which people get to use it, I do that all the time with civility, pornography, commercial sales, pimping, spamming and a number of other areas/topics.

This depends on what you mean by 'the terms'. The examples you give are either basic protections for discussion i.e. civility/porn, or subjective choices that have been made for the site as a whole, e.g. 'this is the not the buy and sell'. That's fine, and I think the remit of boards has been well established as non-advertising content, people are happy with this and keep coming back.

There is a difference between those general regulations and regulation of what can be posted in specific areas where you have a personal involvement. If people accept that it's ok to post tournament details on Boards it's then legitimate to demand that people must provide certain information, as has already been done. What your tournament charter is trying is do is different, in that you are trying to harness Boards to effect change. There's nothing wrong with this, but it involves you taking conflicting roles of being a moderator of discussion and advocate for a particular position. If there is to be a boards charter which would restrict ability to post, it would want to be on the basis of some sort of consensus, and I don't think boards being your baby should give your view on the issue any more weight.

To put this in a different way, I know you've stood up for people who have sharply criticised companies on boards in the past, as I hope you would tolerate someone who sharply critisiced you or boards, on boards.

To me the key issue is transparency: choice is enhanced when people can see what's going on. Players have a right to see where there money is going, Nobody has the right to decide what tournaments are good/bad, some people are happy with a gamblefest - witness the common STT satellites where the blinds go up every hand, and has already been mentioned, turbo tournaments.

It is fair to personally criticise particular formats, but I don't think the Irish gambling community is fully represented on Boards, and even if it were, it would smack of majoritarianism to define 'acceptable tournament formats' on behalf of everyone. Doing things like this takes away choice rather than increasing it. Given it's lack of a representative quality, I think the forum would be better off not trying to be a standards authority in formal way, and merely use its readership and reach to improve things.

Frankygolucky

http://www.gbgb.org.uk/bcaguides.htm

DeVore

HAHAHAH.... and you all think I'm being a hard nose... have a look at this (thanks for the link Franky)

http://www.gbgb.org.uk/bcaguides_main.html the third guideline deals with tournies! Some very interesting stuff there....

DeV.

tap28

Hi all just so you know where I as coming from, I am one of the organisers of the poker tournament in Roscrea (the revenue auditor).

I appreciate that you don’t know us from Adam. I know from my job that transparency is paramount in the business I audit and my own work in the office. There is no question that our goal will be to make things as clear as Mud, I mean crystal. From day one when we decided to possibly run this tournament, we went to a solicitor and the cops to make sure we were legally sound.

Jem, you seem like a straight up guy, what part of the charter would you have problems with? Is there any of it you wont be adhering to? If not, why... whats the problem?

I have not talked to him yet, but I will give you my point of view.

1) While I agree the number of rebuys and top ups must be recorded and freely available to the players on demand, the is the biggest problem I can see, form a logistics point of view, would be trying to break the numbers down by player so that each may check what has been recorded against him. There are only 7 of us organising and running the whole thing. However, the majority of people posting seem to think that it should be mandatory to do this. We are having a meeting at the weekend and we will discuss if we think we can comply with the people’s wishes.

2) We are going with the 75%/25% for buyins, rebuys and topups.

3) Totally agree, I think we are starting with 1500 in chips, the posters and tickets are printed so it is not likely that we will change them.

4) Does not apply to us

5) I agree, and if it looks like heading over time we have the hall, the only way forward is that agreement must be unanimous. If we give the player left enough notice I can’t see this being a problem.

6) Agreed

7) On the posters and tickets Ace High Card Club are the first words you see.

8) As soon as the money is counted, which shouldn’t take to long, we plan on doing exactly that.

9) We have no intention of capping the prise pool; we are running on a percentage basis right trough.


Now I would like to thank Dev for all the work he put into coming up with the charter. It is people like him that put the effort in that make it possible for all of us to have an open and frank discussion about the game we love and especially the proposed charter. By the way I think it should be called “The Code of Practice for tournament Organisers”

BrendanB

Recording the rebuys and topups is easy enough and it's essential in a situation where the amount of chips increases with the rebuy. It's just a case of having a full player list and marking each off as they come in. It can get a bit hectic (Saturday night Holdem/Omaha, generally on the first hand of Omaha, where I've seen Snowy on the verge of punching someone), but if you've a couple of people free it should be no bother.

BigDragon

Reading all the posts as a person who is trying to put together a big game for a cancer charity during the summer a couple of things come to mind.

The players charter is exactly how I will run it. There will be a larger than usual reg fee with all of it going to the charity. The buyin and topups will go to the prize pool directly. I am looking for sponsorship where the sponsor will cover all the costs and I hope to get smaller sponsors for table sponsor, bad beat prize, best hand prize, first out after freezeout prize etc. I am also looking for the sponsor to donate a top up on the charity money ( for the PR value).

I want to get good players to attract good players and get a buzz going about the game so that it can become a yearly event. I would rather get a yearly guaranteed sum for the charity than hit people for a once off pay day and piss people off so theydont want to return next year. This is where the value in poker tournaments for charities lie.


Secondly, I think this whole discussion has really brought to the fore an idea I have been mulling over for a while. An Irish Poker Players Association. Now this may seem grandious but poker is obviously on the up and I am afraid that there is going to be a backlash from certain pressure groups. The casinos will protect themselves but as a player I understand the negativity amongst some of my friends about poker and I think I'd like someone to fight my corner when it comes to the image of my choosen pastime in Ireland.

A players group could support correctly run events (that accept the Organisers Charter) and could promote sensible poker play (gambling if you wish).

Maybe its far fetched but poker is fast becoming a huge sport and players that believe in the purity of the sport in its best form need to be in the thick of the upcoming dicusssion on its place in Irish society.

The fight for understanding is on the horizon. I think we need to be part of it.

Any thoughts?

Drakar

Recording rebuys and topups (without computers):
1) Before tournament create a list (can be a few sheets of paper), with sequential numbers down one side.
2) When people register, put their name beside one of the numbers and let them know what number they have (or give them the number on some piece of paper).
3) When someone asks for a top up or rebuy, find their number on the list (or find their name (slow) if they've forgotten the number or lost piece of paper), then put add a 'T' (topup) or 'R' (rebuy).

Lafortezza

I agree with pretty much all of what DeV has said so far.
At the moment the Irish poker scene is basically "If you organise it, they will come and you will make an absolute killing".
It's not a players market by any means.

But each tournament is different, be it a Fitz tourney, charity tourney or locally organised pub game.
As long as the rules and organisation of each tournament is transparent, and people can have a full knowledge of what they are letting themselves in for then people will vote with their feet if they want to play or not.

Would it be worthwhile for advertisers/organisers of tournaments who want to post up the details of their tournament to pm DeV or a mod of the poker board with the details first, and decide whether it's acceptable to be put on the poker board as per DeV's guidelines/rules?
I'd help out if more people were needed.

Tourneque

I'm really liking the idea of a Players association... not a profit making org. but one that looks after player interests.

I mean.. .don't take offence, but if I'm not a doctor or a lawyer and I'm organising a poker tournament does that mean you should start assuming I will be creaming from the re-buys that I somehow can't easily record even though I spent years in college ?

It would make things alot easier if, for example, you saw a tourney advertised and it met basic such and such guidelines put forward by the IPPA..

ionapaul

A bit OT: Are there Players' Associations in other countries? What, if anything, have they done or claim to do for players?

jem

i subose I have been argueing for events that the organisers are trying to make a few quid from.This is not the case with ourselves, so much of the arguments that have happened are not relevent to our tourney.
We are near enough there in terms of sponsorship so we can state that the prize fund is 75% of all initial buyin- €20, top ups €20 and rebuys €20.
I have asked one of the banks to provide a staff member to count the money with us and be an independant person to insure that all money is above board.I am fairly confident that this will happen, if it doesn't we will at least have a member of St. V de P there with us for all counting.
With regard to the buy backs /top ups what I have in mind was that with each there would be a ticket given out with each, and the rebuys would be per counted into coin bags from the banks, we would therefore have a trible check on the numbers ie the money, the number of bags handed out and also the ticket stub. The reason I was against the name taking was because there was pandamonium in the gresham at times with the rebuys, i saw one of those giving them out with 4/5 around him looking for the chips in order to get back palying, taking names i felt would take too long.
As tap said we will discuss it at our next meeting.

our published structure is initial buyin €20 1500 in chips, rebuy €20 1500 in chips, top up €20 2000 in chips.
I have a computer version of the poster if anyone is interested.
i would hope that we would run this event again for charity in the future so we want to run an event that is sucessful, well run and enjoyed by all. As tap said we are not capping the prize money , the more spent, the more given out.
As I said I was probably argueing for events that I would attend but are not running, where the organisers are trying to make money for themselves. There are a lot of opportunities to play in Dublin but I am sure that this is the first event being run within 50 miles or more of Roscrea. I would like to see more events and personally don't mind if people make decent money out of them, but thats just the businessman in me.

DeVore

I *want* organisers to make money from the game. Otherwise they wont run them again but what I've seen to date has made me sick. Especially in the west where it seems to be usual for the organiser to skim about 40%+ from the pool without saying anything to anyone.

Jem, I think you guys are on the up but you REALLY need to come to Dublin to the Fitz and see how they run tournies there. 100 people games and every name for every buyin is taken and recorded. Its not as much work as you think though you need to be organised!

DeV.

BrendanB

I don't think anyone is arguing against tournaments that make a profit Jem, as long as it's done above board. If you want to charge a 20 quid reg fee and take a 10% cut of rebuys in a tournament you run that's fair enough as long as people can see what's going on.

As far as making a profit goes, I think seems to be an underlying, unstated and possibly unconscious belief that poker players are getting screwed over, and that we need to throw off the shackles of the oppressor and make an heroic stand. A la the house of lords or something. This just isn't the case, tournament regs are extremely low by the costs involved, and in truth tournament players are freerolling at cashgamers expense.

If independent poker tournaments start cropping up more and more often we'll just have to accept that without side games to cover costs, the regs are going to be going up.

As for a poker players association, I can see the point with the increase in the number of unknown organisers - in practical terms it might be tough to get off the ground given that there is no underlying club structure that supports similar bodies in other sports (and calling poker a sport is a little bit optimistic), but I'm sure there's a way.

BigDragon

Interesting article by Ray Cooke on the subject:

Here

jem

we will try to get up to the fitz. a few of the lads are going to the kildare tourney tonight.
We do want it run right and did ask for all the help and sugestions that we could get.
We will come up with a system for keeping the records. the gresham event scared me off doing so, I have to admit.

DeVore

To be honest, while the Gresham event was well run by non-casino standards, there was room for improvement, its easy enough to have a clipboard and photcopies of the sign in list, give them to the rebuy people and split the room in half...

You should buy workman aprons (the kind carpenter use for tools) and put the various chips in the pockets, thats what we do for the big games in the Fitz.

I agree with Brendan too, we should expect to see reg fees go up BUT since the entire prizepool is left for the players, we get MUCH better value for our money. Currently the games *really* should be listed as 25+25 games, cos thats what the money comes to when you look at it closely. Now, if someone comes along and runs a 35+15 game, which is the public going to pick?

I'm also thinking of dropping the requirement for dealers for 10+ reg fees and just leave it that each tournie must detail whether it has deaelers or not and for how much of the tournie (all, last 3 tables, final table).

I dont really want to be determining what numbers are used but just detailing the amount of prior info the players must have. Informed players make informed choices!

Jem, I like the way you guys are conducting things though, asking for advice etc is a good sign! If I'm not working I'll try and get down to Tipp for the night.

DeV.

Shortstack

DeVore wrote:

Jem, I like the way you guys are conducting things though, asking for advice etc is a good sign! If I'm not working I'll try and get down to Tipp for the night.

DeV.

Road trip !

jem

DeVore wrote:

Jem, I like the way you guys are conducting things though, asking for advice etc is a good sign! If I'm not working I'll try and get down to Tipp for the night.

DeV.

Thanks.
Do take a night off, it will do you good and come down and see what life is like past the mad cow
Tickets are now available. and the deal with the hotel stands at €35 pp sharing which is good value.
As it was my idea in the first place and to be honest pushed the others into it.So I hope it will be well supported by the boards crew.
the email acehighroscrea"at"hotmail."com" will get you tickets.
I am now going to ammend my earlied initial notice.

thanks for the help.
james
I have now posted the amended version. I hope that it is ok for everyone.

jem

if I may make a sugestion,
why not make a sticky of the notices of tourneys that shall we say would be recomended by the mods, or have a sticky with links to treads on those tourneys.That way it is to the advantage of those holding them to conform to the ideas of the site. Have the sticky tread locked for posting except by mods.

DeVore

I think stickying tournie announcements isnt a bad idea. Let me think about how it can be done cleanly, I like your suggestion though.

I've gone down the country to play a few times but the experience has left a bad taste in my mouth frequently, hence this charter because to be honest, the Dublin players arent really in need of it, its the country players who have no alternative that are getting screwed.

I'll be down if that doesnt clash with another tournie I have to run.

DeV.

jem

If you want I will do a post linking to each tread that the tourney is discusses on.
If it is ok You can make it a sticky later.

okidoki987

poker is fast becoming a huge sport

That's an understatemnet when you see the likes of Argos selling chips and tables!


And it was going oh so well until....

I have asked one of the banks

DeVore

I'm going to be finalising the charter soon and we'll see how things go.
Already I have one series of tournies that will be run in the North West of the country who have agreed to follow it.

I'm going to change one thing, that is the requirement for regged tournies of 10 euros or more to have dealers. I'm going to change that to all tournaments must declare if they will have dealers or not, that way its up to the players to decide. I'll append the excellent set of questions Hyzepher knocked together too.

I dont want to punish legit operators or charity games, I'd like all the charity games to be able to stamp their flyers "In accordance with the Irish Poker Players Tournament Charter".

Now that the Open I'll have a bit more time...

DeV.