Gardai speeding along the Luas tracks

Bee

Anyone else notice this?

Strolling down past Irish Life...There was a Garda van stopped under the railway bridge,on the Luas tracks, waiting for the lights to change, in no hurry, moved off and drove the wrong way up Abbey St along the Luas tracks the other morning.

I would normally expect to see only the usual idiot cyclists do this

Mid afternoon a speeding Garda car drove down Abbey St. along the Luas tracks and stopped at Store St cop shop.

Is this a very dangerous abuse of power?

Anyone else experience this?

Bee

Andrew Duffy

Constantly. So long as we have a police force that is in fact an unregulated off shoot of our military we will have officers who believe themselves above the law. Comfort yourself with the knowledge that it is increasingly unlikely that the driver of the marked car or van has been trained in defensive high speed driving and is in fact driving based upon a letter from his superintendent.

Zulu

Ah the Guards! Speeding to the chipper. Would you expect anything else?
I just hope everyone is alright when they hit a Luas.

tk123

Zulu wrote:

Ah the Guards! Speeding to the chipper. Would you expect anything else?

Speeding to the doughnut shop!!

BrianD

I'm sure emergency vehicles can use the luas reservations at all times. Though it is debatable whether they should be used routinely.

Tarabuses

Emergency vehicles should use their sirens and warning lights when making any otherwise illegal manouevres. Of course thay do not since, as has been said, they are above the law.

Victor

Emergency vehicles can use the Luas-only streets at all times. The things to be conscious of are grip on the rails and restricted space if a tram is at a platform.

So it's not so much that they are above the law, the law doesn't apply to them.

Bee do you object to fire trucks using Grafton Street?

RuggieBear

even if it is a non emergency?

Know it's not strictly the same but wasn't there a case a couple of years ago about an ambulance involved in a crash when it went thru a red light and a judge said that it was not legal to do so or something....sorry i'm being so vague.

Zulu

AFAIK: It is illegal for all emergency vehicles to break the law, but in an emergency it is over looked.
ie: a cop car speeding - just to be speeding is illegal. A cop car chasing joy riders is breaking the law by speeding - but they're not going to be prosecuted.

robinph

From knowing some ambulance drivers years ago, so my memory and the facts might not be quite right, I'm sure that they said that they would still get done for speeding, jumping lights, or anything else. And this regardless of if the blue lights/ sirens were on or if they are on the way to an emergency.
The blue lights and sirens are just there for the purpose of warning other road users that they should really get out of the way as this vehicle is on the way to save someones life.
The same rules apply to all three services exactly the same as they do for all other road users, it just chosen to ignore the breaking of the speed limits by an ambulance, etc, as we would hope that if we were in the back of it they would be trying to get to us to hospital as quickly as possible.

optiplexgx270

Is it that big of a deal?

seamus

RuggieBear wrote:

even if it is a non emergency?

The Gardai routinely drive up and down Grafton St and many other pedestrianised streets in the evenings, even when there's no emergency.

TBH it doesn't bother me, so long as they're in a marked patrol car.

RuggieBear

seamus wrote:

The Gardai routinely drive up and down Grafton St and many other pedestrianised streets in the evenings, even when there's no emergency.

TBH it doesn't bother me, so long as they're in a marked patrol car.

tbh it doesn't usually bother me either...but i'd hate to think they were taking a shortcut and risking peoples lifes just for the sake of it

Victor

RuggieBear wrote:

tbh it doesn't usually bother me either...but i'd hate to think they were taking a shortcut and risking peoples lifes just for the sake of it

It's probably safer to use the tram only street as they tend to have less traffic, which would generally make things safer.

The thing about the ambulance running the red light was that the driver did so without paying heed to other traffic (e.g. blind or deaf drivers). The ambulance driver was found 25%(?) responsible and the car driver 75%.

green_onions

Was walking down O'Connell St by Clerys at lunchtime today. The traffic was backed up because the lights at Abbey St were red. Traffic was also backed up in Sackville Place (at the side of Clerys) as a result. Next thing a Garda van comes racing down Sackville Place sirens blaring. There was a truck and a council litter van in the way but they couldn't move cause of the traffic. The Garda van driver is blasting the horn at them. So the council van promptly ramps up onto the central median of O'Connell St, a danger in itself to pedestrians. The truck moves forward and the Garda van swings a left onto the path outside the Sony Centre. Speeds across the footpath and ramps down onto the road again at the Abbey St junction and speeds away across O'Connell Bridge. People on the footpath had to literally jump out of the van's way. That was pure madness and the Garda driving should have exercised a hell of a lot more caution

Occidental

Zulu wrote:

Ah the Guards! Speeding to the chipper. Would you expect anything else?
I just hope everyone is alright when they hit a Luas.

They hit one outside the Four Courts a while back.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

The thing about the ambulance running the red light was that the driver did so without paying heed to other traffic (e.g. blind or deaf drivers). The ambulance driver was found 25%(?) responsible and the car driver 75%.

robfitz

Zulu wrote:

AFAIK: It is illegal for all emergency vehicles to break the law, but in an emergency it is over looked.

They don't break the law, the law doesn't apply to them.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI274Y1998.html
S.I. No. 274/1998: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1998

5. ...

(2) A prohibition or restriction imposed by these Regulations shall not apply to the driver of a fire brigade vehicle or an ambulance or to the use by a member of the Garda Siochana of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, where such use does not thereby endanger the safety of road users.

...

FX Meister

So why was it all over the news that Fire Brigade drivers can get penalty points if they speed and could lose their license?

Bee

Victor wrote:

Bee do you object to fire trucks using Grafton Street?

No, nor especially ambulances. I object strongly to idiotic driving by Gardai that is a danger to the public and I strongly suspect, the abuse of the Luas tracks by Gardai for non-emergency situations.

Bee

jesus_thats_gre

Emergency services cannot break the road traffic laws.. The Gardai can..

As for the moaning that the Gardai do the above, have you seen an instance whereby an accident even neary could have happened?

Zulu

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

As for the moaning that the Gardai do the above, have you seen an instance whereby an accident even neary could have happened?

Yes, yes I have.

murphaph

Whatever about the legal ins and outs of them using Luas as a shortcut, it sets a p*ss poor example for our already crap motorists.

seamus

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

As for the moaning that the Gardai do the above, have you seen an instance whereby an accident even neary could have happened?

When I was in fourth year, a young fella from CUS was hit by a Garda car driving the wrong way down the contra-flow bus lane. On his birthday. Holding his birthday card in his hand.*

Chances are he crossed the road without looking.

*Seriously

edmund_f

do remember when Ireland was hosting the Eu ministers, the Gardai around the place would have put a group of boy racers to shame, did complain.... went to the complaints comission, surprisingly enough _they_ found that _they_ had done nothing wrong.

Zulu

edmund_f wrote:

complaints comission

pppppppfffffffffttttt. :rolleyes:
Thats the best joke I've heard in a while.

Victor

edmund_f wrote:

do remember when Ireland was hosting the Eu ministers, the Gardai around the place would have put a group of boy racers to shame, did complain.... went to the complaints comission, surprisingly enough _they_ found that _they_ had done nothing wrong.

The concepts of "in the course of their duties" and diplomatic immunity come to mind.

jesus_thats_gre

Zula, care to share what it was?


Seasus.. Why were they there though?

seamus

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Seasus.. Why were they there though?

Even though the m is nowhere near the s, I'll assume that's aimed at me

I've no idea why they were there. Though driving in a contra-flow bus lane in order to skip traffic comes to mind. Otherwise they should have had their siren on.

Gavin

Someone commented above about the gardai being an offshoot of the army ? What was that all about ?

On the issue of Gardai braking traffic law, it seriously pisses me off. If they have the sirens on, I don't give a ****, they can do what they want. If the sirens aren't on, or the lights, they have no right to go the wrong way up a one way street, take turns that are illegal for other users, break the lights etc. They are the enforcers of the law, the defenders of the peace, you think they would adhere to law so as to set an example !!!



Gav

Turner

seamus wrote:

The Gardai routinely drive up and down Grafton St and many other pedestrianised streets in the evenings, even when there's no emergency.
.

Its called patrolling their district. If they werent there people would be giving out aswell.

Victor

Of course, this would tell every scumbag around that they are coming, wouldn't it?

Gavin

It's breaking the law. Plain and simple. Do you think that they should be allowed to break the law for their own convenience ?

Turner

Unless you are in the police car you dont know what kind of a call they are going to whether its urgent or not or who they are monitoring/following. Sirens let criminals know you are coming and from what ive seen irish motorists dont react well to sirens coming up behind them.

seamus

Chief--- wrote:

Its called patrolling their district. If they werent there people would be giving out aswell.

Clearly. That was my point. It's safe to say that most of the time, patrolling along a LUAS line or bus lane is just as valid - lets them cover the entire area.

Gavin

That's a fair point. And there are situations when discretion is required. But a garda car casually driving along parnell st and taking a left turn onto o connel st when no others are allowed to do this is ridiculous. Or driving across the island on O connell st. Or garda motorcyclist breaking red lights !!

As a general rule, Gardai shouldn't be breaking laws..

Victor

Verb wrote:

As a general rule, Gardai shouldn't be breaking laws..

But that part of the law doesn't apply to them. It's like complaining that because cycle lanes are not to be driven on, that cyclists (and wheel chair users) shouldn't drive on them.

Gavin

Victor wrote:

But that part of the law doesn't apply to them. It's like complaining that because cycle lanes are not to be driven on, that cyclists (and wheel chair users) shouldn't drive on them.

That's a ridiculous comparison. And where in law does it state that the Gardai are allowed to break the rules of the road ?

Gav

Zaph0d

By conspicuously breaking the laws, the Irish police make it harder for themselves to do their jobs or gain any respect from the public. The one time I spent a few hours in a police car helping them with their enquiries, the two cops drove incredibly dangerously for no reason (we were in no hurry). The two lads were about 25 and looked happy as larry driving around town at break-neck speeds safe in the knowledge they coudn't be arrested.

Dublin city council has confirmed that the cops have no special license to double park outside Pearse street station yet they do because they can.

Here's a photo of them breaking the law:

robfitz

Verb wrote:

That's a ridiculous comparison. And where in law does it state that the Gardai are allowed to break the rules of the road ?

The Road Traffic Act does, they are not exempted from drink driving though.

Road Traffic Act 2004
http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=6359&lang=ENG&loc=387

Exemptions for emergency vehicles.

27.--Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2004 relat-
ing to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relat-
ing to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided
under sections 49 and 50 (inserted by sections 10 and 11, respectively,
of the Act of 1994), 51A and 52 (inserted by sections 49 and 50,
respectively, of the Act of 1968) and 53 of the Principal Act and
sections 12, 13, 14 and 15 of the Act of 1994, do not apply to a driver
of a fire brigade vehicle, an ambulance or the use by a member of
the Garda Siochana of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of
that member or a person driving or using a vehicle under the direc-
tion of a member of the Garda Siochana, where such use does not
endanger the safety of road users.

Chipboard

I used always do my best to give the boys in blue a way around me until around 2 years ago. I was coming into the M50 toll bridge in heavy traffic and I heard sirens coming. I glanced in my right rear view and saw a squad car coming a little back with lights blazing. As there was an artic in the lane to my right just ahead of me I hung back a bit so the squad car could manouver forward and switch into my lane just ahead of me and so have a clear run thru the gates, which he did. While I was waiting for the squad car to manouver I heard a car horn beeping repeatedly and just after the squad car passed by me a fully uniformed guard in what looked like his own private car (it was a hatchback around 4 or 5 years old) shot out from behind me to my right and he was shouting obscenities so loud out the passenger window at me that there was salive coming out of his mouth. So from now on they can kiss my ass, I wouldn't make any special effort to let them by after that. Just goes to show how one muppet can screw it up for everyone.

By the way, the previous poster was correct. Blue flashing lights and sirens dont give the driver of an emergency vehicle any special rights or protection. If he hits someone he is in as much **** as the rest of us, except if he's a cop he's not going to be prosecuted unless the victim knows how to push it and has a very hard neck.

Gavin

After briefly reading that act, specificly section 10 & 11 which drivers of emergency vehicles are not exempt from, it appears that they aren't allowed to break the speed limit...

Correct me if I'm wrong, it's difficult to follow the wording of those acts sometimes !

Gav

jesus_thats_gre

The Gardai are the only ones legally allowed to break the road traffic laws. Emergency vehicle drivers have to obey speed limits etc... I

Funny story, I know of one ambulance driver who was pulled over speeding with his lights and sirens on. It was found he was just going to collect a take away and wanted to get their that bit quicker

He got done for it too..

Gavin

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The Gardai are the only ones legally allowed to break the road traffic laws. Emergency vehicle drivers have to obey speed limits etc...

That's not what the act says.

As from above

27.—Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2004 [...] other than those provided under [...] sections 10 and 11, respectively,
of the Act of 1994), [...] do not apply to a driver
of a fire brigade vehicle, an ambulance or the use by a member of
the Garda Sıochana of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of
that member [...] where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

And if you examine sections 10 & 11 from which they are not excluded, these deal with the speed limits on roads.

11.—The following section is substituted for section 47 of the Principal
Act:
‘‘47.—(1) A person shall not drive a mechanically propelled
vehicle at a speed exceeding the speed limit—
(a) that applies in respect of that vehicle, or
(b) that applies to the road on which the vehicle is being
driven where that speed limit is lower than that
applying to that vehicle.
(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an
offence.

So it appears that they can take illegal turns, go the wrong way up a one way street etc.. but not break the speed limit. And that applies to fire brigade trucks, ambulances and vehicles driven by Gardai.

Please forgive my pedantic nature. It comes from posting on the internet too often.

Gav

Hotblack Desiato

Verb wrote:

So it appears that they can take illegal turns, go the wrong way up a one way street etc.. but not break the speed limit.

Nope. The sections 10 and 11 of the Road Traffic Act 1994 refer to:

10 Prohibition on driving vehicle while under influence of intoxicant.
11 Prohibition on being in charge of vehicle while under influence of intoxicant.

Gavin

ah yeah. you're right too. I wasn't reading the consolidated version. My apologies.


Gav

Andrew Duffy

Verb wrote:

Someone commented above about the gardai being an offshoot of the army ? What was that all about ?

'twas me. The Garda Siochána was formed in 1923 by renaming the Civic Guard created after the Royal Irish Constabulary was dissolved. Although unarmed, many of the members, including the first, PJ Kerrigan, were ex-soldiers. The Civic Guard also staged a triumphalist march into Dublin Castle in 1922, not something you often see a civilian police force doing. In fact, at the time Dublin was policed by the entirely seperate, much older Dublin Metropolitan Police. Even today, the very interesting CIA World Fact Book lists the Garda Síochana as one of our military wings.