RTÉ confirm being on the NI SKY EPG from next month

I dont see it mentioned anywhere else here,so I thought I'd post it.
There is an article in todays Sunday world page 13 where a spokesperson for RTÉ confirm that they will be on the Northern Ireland Sky EPG from next month following an agreement with Sky.

I wonder what the implications are for TV3 down here with this news-are they going up North too? or are UTV coming on down here soon either as an FTA add on or on the EPG?

Interesting times.

marksi

Earthman wrote:

I dont see it mentioned anywhere else here,so I thought I'd post it.
There is an article in todays Sunday world page 13 where a spokesperson for RTÉ confirm that they will be on the Northern Ireland Sky EPG from next month following an agreement with Sky.

I wonder what the implications are for TV3 down here with this news-are they going up North too? or are UTV coming on down here soon either as an FTA add on or on the EPG?

Interesting times.

Ah from the organ of truth that is the Sunday World.

Remember that they said they'd be on by the end of January in the Sunday Times last December.

They have never needed an agreement with Sky to appear on the NI EPG - anyone who pays Sky has a right to an EPG position - they need an agreement from all the programme rights holders.

marksi

marksi wrote:

they need an agreement from all the programme rights holders.

I'm aware of that but the agreement with sky could have been on price,epg placing etc...

BrianD

I doubt if it will have any implications for TV3 in the short term. The stumbling block is rights ownership.

It will be a big bonus for Sky to have RTE on board in the north. The big boost that NTL got in the north was not there digital service, single billing, cheap telephony but the availability of RTE. Strange but true.

Charles Slane

Very interesting news, Earthman.

There was a feature by Paul O'Kane in the Sunday Tribune today about UTV and particularly their radio interests. There was also a reference to Sky carriage (but not very positive).

"Several years ago UTV was the second-largest channel in the Republic, but it's position has been eroded by the growth of TV3 and the increasing penetration of Sky Digital, which does not carry UTV. Due to TV3's content deal with ITV, UTV was unable to gain carriage on Sky."

It all sounds very past-tense, doesn't it ? Then there's a quote from UTV chief executive John McGann.

"I believe it is totally unacceptable for UTV to be squeezed off platforms in the south, particularly the Sky platform. What they (viewers) are getting through TV3 is an ITV lookalike, and that's not what the licence was supposed to be. It was supposed to be about offering more choice."

Doesn't sound like UTV will appear on the ROI EPG anytime soon. RTE's arrival on the NI EPG is great news for our friends up north, but it seems it'll take the addition of TV3 to the NI EPG to seal the deal with UTV appearing down here.

marksi

"I believe it is totally unacceptable for UTV to be squeezed off platforms in the south, particularly the Sky platform. What they (viewers) are getting through TV3 is an ITV lookalike, and that's not what the licence was supposed to be. It was supposed to be about offering more choice."

The fact that UTV was available is irrelevant. UTV were not paying for the rights to the programmes for the RoI. Officially, it was not available, therefore TV3 *was* broadening choice in terms of the licences offered by the authorities in the RoI. I'd ask UTV why they feel they have a right to be on the Sky EPG in the south. Technically they have no more right than any other ITV licencee.

marksi

marksi wrote:

I'd ask UTV why they feel they have a right to be on the Sky EPG in the south. Technically they have no more right than any other ITV licencee.

From Sky's angle.
Customer demand?
Unfair competition from other digital platforms that have UTV?
Two plausible reasons.

From UTV's angle.
Two classes of citizen-one that has UTV on a legal platform in Ireland and one that doesnt-why should a person in Waterford city be treated differently in terms of basic channel choice than one in a rural part of Co Waterford.
One platform is allowed to have the channel, whist the other isnt and all because a competitor complains...

SRB

From Sky's angle.
Customer demand?

Why stop with UTV, perhaps Sky will also be rushing to add the various other European sport and movie packages to their platform, just to give us, the customer, better choice ?


Unfair competition from other digital platforms that have UTV?
Two plausible reasons

That's a different issue - agreements are in place to cover that.

Tony

marksi wrote:

The fact that UTV was available is irrelevant. UTV were not paying for the rights to the programmes for the RoI. Officially, it was not available, therefore TV3 *was* broadening choice in terms of the licences offered by the authorities in the RoI. I'd ask UTV why they feel they have a right to be on the Sky EPG in the south. Technically they have no more right than any other ITV licencee.

here we go with this ridiculous arguement again. Officially it was available, its been on cable for donkeys years. It should either be available on all platforms or none.

djpaul

Tony wrote:

here we go with this ridiculous arguement again. Officially it was available, its been on cable for donkeys years. It should either be available on all platforms or none.

Agreed

Richard

Tony wrote:

here we go with this ridiculous arguement again. Officially it was available, its been on cable for donkeys years. It should either be available on all platforms or none.

I think it can at least be described as a grey area. UTV does not have a licence to broadcast in RoI - TV3 does. Why should UTV have any say in what TV3 shows?

Tony

Richard wrote:

I think it can at least be described as a grey area. UTV does not have a licence to broadcast in RoI - TV3 does. Why should UTV have any say in what TV3 shows?

the opposite question could also be asked, fact of the matter is both are available to a great many viewers and have been for years on cable. It is tiresome to always bring up the rights issue.(its irrelevant to this particular sitauation) There is only one reason why UTV is not available and that is a a clause in the contract in which Granada took a stake in TV3 which was only brought to light after UTV had signed a carriage agreement with SKY for ROI.

SRB

It is tiresome to always bring up the rights issue.(its irrelevant to this particular sitauation)

Eh, actually Tony no it's not. I don't think it would have mattered who owned TV3. Any company running a TV station will want to protect it's rights in it's own market - it makes sense. Look at 5 and RTE in the North, Scottish Football and Sky. It's not just UTV/TV3 either. You know as well as anyone that it is possible to receive most European TV channels on Sat, but walking into a European High Street dealer and asking for a subscription for use in another country is another matter altogether. It shouldn't be, but it is.

SRB

SRB wrote:

It is tiresome to always bring up the rights issue.(its irrelevant to this particular sitauation)

Eh, actually Tony no it's not. I don't think it would have mattered who owned TV3. Any company running a TV station will want to protect it's rights in it's own market -

I see and *cough* why doesnt TV3 then sue Chorus and NTL for rebroadcasting a channell showing those same programmes in the territory that TV3 claims exclusive rights to? why dont they do a "five" and have all those programmes blacked out on NTL in the Republic?
Why dont they attempt to over turn the agreement between the cable companies and UTV?

Tony

SRB wrote:

Eh, actually Tony no it's not.

it is, had TV3 not brought this particular clause into play UTV would have been on sky a long time ago. Those are the facts as happened and no amount of repetition of the rights issue will change that. Ask yourself how UTV were in a position to sign a carriage deal with sky if this were not the case

SRB

Earthman wrote:

I see and *cough* why doesnt TV3 then sue Chorus and NTL for rebroadcasting a channell showing those same programmes in the territory that TV3 claims exclusive rights to? why dont they do a "five" and have all those programmes blacked out on NTL in the Republic?
Why dont they attempt to over turn the agreement between the cable companies and UTV?

Why would they ? They have agreed carriage rights for the service. There is no such agreement in place for UTV to broadcast on Sat to the ROI.

Tony

SRB wrote:

Why would they ? They have agreed carriage rights for the service. There is no such agreement in place for UTV.

the cable companies only agreed carriage after many years of pirating the signal and the threat of legal action by BBC/ITV. As I have already stated there was a carriage agreement between UTV and sky which was rendered useless by TV3
who obvioulsy feared the competition. UTV could simply buy there own transponder space if this were not the case, the whole carriage agreement is a red herring.

SRB

SRB wrote:

Why would they ?

Because they are making the argument that they have paid for the rights for the ROI viewers, yet a significant proportion of said viewers can go elsewhere for the programmes if they want to , thus diluting what they are getting for their buck.
A little consistency.I expect the reason they dont do it(though they'd probably like to) is that they'd be laughed out of court , plus they'd be bringing attention to what appears to me to be their anti competitive practices and they'd not want that to be scrutinised.

d-j-k

HTV Wales has been traditionally available in much of munster and was carried by Cork Multichannel (now chorus) and the various deflector systems. There's no reason why they wouldn't also have an equally valid argument for carriage on the ROI sky satellite system.

I'm not particularly worried about the availability of UTV on Sky anyway now that TV3 is basically ITV1 Ireland.

I'd be far more interested in seeing Channel 4 appear and BBC2,3,news24, etc get places on the Irish EPG rather than having to be manually tuned.

SRB

Because they are making the argument that they have paid for the rights for the ROI viewers, yet a significant proportion of said viewers can go elsewhere for the programmes if they want to

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The rights in question are actually the Satellite Coverage rights, which are different from the rights the cable companies have. Viewers in the ROI can't "go elsewhere for the programmes if they want to" on satellite.

As for carriage deals, anyone can lease a transponder and pay for EPG placement, but unless you clear the rights to screen what you want to show, you won't get very far. There is nothing what-so-ever to stop UTV broadcasting a service of their own to viewers in the Republic. They had their own channel on DTT in Northern Ireland.

d-j-k

I think sky should pick up UTV, C4 at the boarder (like NTL and Chorus supposedly do despite the occasional slip showing the sky epg) then uplink it to satellite IN IRELAND and make it available to viewers with Sky cards registered in the republic of ireland only.

I can't see how that's ANY different from Chorus or NTL who both intentionally rebroadcast northern irish television services on a closed system.

Surely wheather that closed system is cable, a microwave version of DTT (MMDS) or closed satellite is completely irrelevant.

I don't see how a CLOSED satellite system could be treated as any different from a closed system using any other technology to connect to households.

I mean do Chorus and NTL "accidently" pick up signals and rebroadcast them?

It's all just legal nonsense and loopholes.

SRB

I mean do Chorus and NTL "accidently" pick up signals and rebroadcast them?
________________________________________________________________

No, they pay a fee to the Broadcasters they carry, much the same way the Cable companies pay for BBC1 and 2 in the Netherlands, to use but one example.

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It's all just legal nonsense and loopholes.

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It is and it isn't. If you make a progamme, you expect to make money from selling it, and as such rights are available for various countries and platforms. However I do think that the whole issue makes a mockery of the so called European free trade system. If someone in Ireland, the UK, the Netherlands, etc wants to watch TV services from another EU Country, they should be able to do so. So long as they pay the same sub, as if in that country, then I don't see the problem. At the end of the chain the programme makers are still getting their fair share. Sadly "the powers that be" have more important issues to worry about and nothing ever seems to change.

d-j-k

Well, I suppose on the flip side of it the lack of ITV and C4 on Sky's Irish platform has kept Chorus and NTL going and prob. saved a few Irish jobs.

(Moving slightly off the satellite topic and into cable but I still think it's relevant to the thread: )

I could see their cable operations surviving simply because people avoid the need for a dish and most city-dwellers be they in Dublin, Cork, etc... tend to be very used to the idea of cable television.

MMDS however wouldn't have any selling points anymore. They'd either have to start providing value added services bundled with it. e.g wireless broadband, undercut sky on price or just fold it up completely. Even as it is MMDS hardly makes any sense as a business model. It's relies on an expensive very low range transmitter network, it's line of sight, suffers from poor signal strenght and intermittant service interruptions and still requires an antenna that's almost the size of a sky minidish.

Their exclusive content access to those two channels is all that's preventing every home in non-cable land from switching to sky.

I'd say eventually the MMDS networks will end up merging into a proper DTT platform in Ireland. If RTE & comreg had any sense they'd do some kind of a deal with the MMDS providers rather than trying to duplicating what is already an almost loss making digital terrestrial service.

e.g. NTL and Chorus could be given exclusive franchised multiplexes on a national digital terrestrial system in exchange for shutting down the MMDS network. These could continue to operate on the same subscription basis the MMDS operates under. They could then provide their existing (or even expanded) cable-like services in their existing franchise regions on DTT multiplexes rather than by their flakey and aging MMDS network. RTE, TV3, TG4 etc could then concentrate on providing freeview Irish content on their own multiplexes.

The DTT system could make excellent use of already developed EPGs and interactive / PPV systems... it may even be possible to re-use the existing Chorus set top boxes with such a service. They're pretty flexible and based on OpenTV and receive a downconverted signal from the MMDS antenna, it might be a case of a software upgrade and a retune.

Rapid roll out could be achieved using existing chorus and NTL crews to get the systems installed, up and running. They're already familar with the technology! Afterall, Digital MMDS is DVB-T (DTT) just operating over a microwave network rather than a UHF system.

Anyway just a thought

JohnC.

d-j-k wrote:

MMDS however wouldn't have any selling points anymore. They'd either have to start providing value added services bundled with it. e.g wireless broadband, undercut sky on price or just fold it up completely.

Is wireless boradband even feasable on the MMDS system? I was under the impression that they have rather limited bandwidth for their existing services. To get a half-decent (if you can call it that) digital service going, NTL had to wait until they converted everyone to digital and shut down the analogue service.

Their exclusive content access to those two channels is all that's preventing every home in non-cable land from switching to sky.

So true.

As for the rest of your post, it probably makes too much sense for them to actually do it.

Capt'n Midnight

marksi wrote:

"I believe it is totally unacceptable for UTV to be squeezed off platforms in the south, particularly the Sky platform.

Last I heard 30% of UTV's advertising revenue came from the Republic.. so they could pay SKY if they wanted to..

Tony

SRB wrote:

I mean do Chorus and NTL "accidently" pick up signals and rebroadcast them?
________________________________________________________________

No, they pay a fee to the Broadcasters they carry, much the same way the Cable companies pay for BBC1 and 2 in the Netherlands, to use but one example.

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This was not always the case, in the early days of cable they simply pirated BBC and ITV and paid no fee. AFAIK the first company to be threatened with legal action was phoenix comminications (later bought by RTE relays) because they were re brodcasting using microwave from 3 rock. At the time phoenix had no microwave broadcast licience. Its interesting that cable companies these days are quick to talk about legailities and rights etc. they were not so quick in those days when it did not suit them.

marksi

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Last I heard 30% of UTV's advertising revenue
came from the Republic.. so they could pay SKY if they wanted to..

The quote which appears above your post which you attribute to me, is not mine.

SRB

At the time phoenix had no microwave broadcast licience. Its interesting that cable companies these days are quick to talk about legalities and rights etc. they were not so quick in those days when it did not suit them.
========================================================

Now Tony, enough talk of the Dark Ages, in those days no-one on 3 Rock had a broadcast license !

gusto

This is good news.

Tony

SRB wrote:

At the time phoenix had no microwave broadcast licience. Its interesting that cable companies these days are quick to talk about legalities and rights etc. they were not so quick in those days when it did not suit them.
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Now Tony, enough talk of the Dark Ages, in those days no-one on 3 Rock had a broadcast license !

this is true but whats your point? It suited cable companies then to flout the law, now they use the very same laws to stifle competition.

SRB

My point is there were no agreements in place between the UK companies and the cable companies back then, there are such agreements in place now.

Tony

SRB wrote:

My point is there were no agreements in place between the UK companies and the cable companies back then, there are such agreements in place now.

They had no choice either carry on watching their services being pirated or accept a paltry fee per viewer from the cable companies.

SRB

Well then I suppose you can't blame them for digging their heels in now, can you!
Just to get back to the actual thread title - has anyone had a reply from RTE confirming this ? I wrote to them over a week ago and still haven't heard a thing. Mind you I'm still waiting from TG4 to reply about the TX in Belfast. Tony, have you any trade contacts in the North you could ask ?

Tony

SRB wrote:

Tony, have you any trade contacts in the North you could ask ?

Afraid not.

Capt'n Midnight

marksi wrote:

The quote which appears above your post which you attribute to me, is not mine.

Sorry /my bad
don't know what happened there - it was in Charles Slane's post and attributed to
UTV chief executive John McGann.

Ulsterman 1690

UTV was already widely available in the Republic (including some places where TV3 isint) long before TV3 (or even RTE for that matter) was concieved
TV3 buys the rights to ITV programmes knowing full well that these are widely avilable to the majority of its viewers and up until now have seemingly accepted this. In any case if they were to complain to rights holders about UTV being available in the Republic UTV could counter with complaints about TV3 being transmitted into Northern Ireland from Claremont Carn and Holwywell Hill.

The fact that TV3 are willing to pay money for programming that most of its potential audience can apparently still attract audiences shows what a load of nonsense all these arguments about the need to restrict broadcasts to within national territories for copyright reasons is and why channels like TV3 UTV etc should be available FTA all across Europe

SRB

TV3 buys the rights to ITV programmes knowing full well that these are widely avilable to the majority of its viewers and up until now have seemingly accepted this.
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As Tony pointed out, there isn't really a lot they can do about "terrestrial overspill" - they can however control where their programmes are available on sat.
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In any case if they were to complain to rights holders about UTV being available in the Republic UTV could counter with complaints about TV3 being transmitted into Northern Ireland from Claremont Carn and Holwywell Hill.
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Given that the same company who own the rights to 99% of UTV's programming are major shareholders in TV3 - that's not really going to get them very far is it ?

HarryD

Does anyone know if RTE will now appear on EPG's for NI customers who have FTV cards ?

Round Cable

HarryD wrote:

Does anyone know if RTE will now appear on EPG's for NI customers who have FTV cards ?

I doubt it, considering in the republic a subscription is required, I'd say it's the same situation in the North.